ThatOneMarshal Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Hey everyone! I’ve been running ultras recently and I’ve been trying to figure this out. So in general we want to have a full re roll on our units, especially in larger games as well as command points. I was curious gameplay wise do you guys prefer running the Calagar or guilliman to lead your army. Calagar seems to have the advantage of providing an easier way into a list with him being an HQ and all. He also seems great for his warlord trait. However he is restricted to being only 6 inches and needs a lieutenant to go around with him. He’s also cheaper which is a huge plus. Guilliman has the advantage of being a CC beast and also very capable allowing more mobility in your army considering his 12 inch re rolls. He’s much hardier as well. However he limits you to only two detachments as he will take up the third either being in a super heavy auxiliary or a supreme command. Also he’s expensive. So what do you guys think, or do you all prefer taking a chapter master upgrade from a captain? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aothaine Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Depends on what kind of army you're running. How competitive do you want to be? I can honestly see both being used in different ways. IMHO: Guilliman works best with moving castles. He provides the punch they need to make melee a dangerous option. I've not seen Calgar's new rules yet though. But I know he is good. It is freaking Calgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Guilliman is way better plus you don’t need a Lieutenant but Calgar is really good too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Calgar + LT is almost a hundred points cheaper base and fills your HQ slots. They arent as punchy, but then you aren't wasting 90+ points on more HQ slots (two techmarines are 90pts), adding another 100~ points to Guilliman's cost, especially if you don't want Techmarines! I suppose you could use Guilliman to offset needing to take another Batallion for points, saving CP Cost of a CM + he gives you 3, balancing it out. However, is Guilliman better for your army than 15 troop bodies + two HQs, plus the additional slots that go with the Batallion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 I suppose you could use Guilliman to offset needing to take another Batallion for points, saving CP Cost of a CM + he gives you 3, balancing it out. However, is Guilliman better for your army than 15 troop bodies + two HQs, plus the additional slots that go with the Batallion? Calgar does also save the CP expenditure of Chapter Master too and still gives 2CP, and is an HQ towards a Battalion. I'm glad Guilliman's buff is no longer insanely potent, but I feel like Calgar+Lt, plus other stuff is the better option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted September 5, 2019 Author Share Posted September 5, 2019 See the only thing I’m thinking right now is if it’s worth it to go with guilliman for the mobile gun line. In my first game of ITC I realized that mobility seems to be extremely important, making it so that castling isn’t nearly as effective. What do you all think, can we do the mobile gun line with Calagar or is guilliman our only way forward? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Calgar will have a harder time keeping up with speedier stuff, like Leviathans or Contemptors. However he should be fine if you are running a Primaris Gun Line. THe only downside is he isnt quite the deterrent the Primarch is! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 I suppose you could use Guilliman to offset needing to take another Batallion for points, saving CP Cost of a CM + he gives you 3, balancing it out. However, is Guilliman better for your army than 15 troop bodies + two HQs, plus the additional slots that go with the Batallion? Calgar does also save the CP expenditure of Chapter Master too and still gives 2CP, and is an HQ towards a Battalion. I'm glad Guilliman's buff is no longer insanely potent, but I feel like Calgar+Lt, plus other stuff is the better option. So far I agree. It's a close call but I think they changed his Hand of Dominion to partially compensate for how much less effective dad's firesword is going to be. For me it was one thing to remove the re roll all wounds aura (I think it had to happen), but I would have kept it on the sword. It's the Emperor's sword... and it is made of fire... it burns. So when I was after big targets, or something like Mortarion, the sword -was- the absolute go to, 100% of the time, and I just banked on getting the Mortal wounds. Now not so much. Again, I think that's why the Hand of Dominion was buffed. I've seen too many games where Guilliman isn't pulling his weight under the new rules, and the points are considerably different from Calgar (+ the additional HQ you're going to have to buy) That being said I'd still use him in the right list. It's not like he's 'bad' or anything like that. Just perhaps not an auto include in all lists like before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 If Guilliman can benefit from +1 to wound from Chaplain he can still wound Mort on 2+. He is still the best melee unit you has to be a little careful now. Anyone eschewing Calgar over Roboute to save points on HQ does not understand this edition. Plus we have some. very tasty HQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 If Guilliman can benefit from +1 to wound from Chaplain he can still wound Mort on 2+. He is still the best melee unit you has to be a little careful now. That Litany only works for the closest enemy unit with ranged weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Okay so scrub that... thank you Kallas. :) I still love Guilliman but 350 points can go a long way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Captain in Gravis Armour, Chapter Master, Vox Espiritum, 2x Warlord Traits. 108 pts Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted September 6, 2019 Author Share Posted September 6, 2019 He can fight twice now, which should help I think? I’m not sure but someone who is better at mathammer could probably figure it out. He could get psychically buffed as well but that’s a lot of ifs involved I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Further to my point, I think you could probably get 3 squads of Aggressors instead? I only use one, but it’s nit just about the points. It’s about what the rest of the army can do now. Aggressors are amazingly potent for Ultramarines. Add in Shock assault, added resilience, and their extra attacks, I’ve had to start pulling these guys from my lists. People sometimes want any part of these guys. I save them for highly competitive games now. They used to pretty bad. I’d struggle to find a way to get them in a list. Again it’s the totality of rules....not just points. You ever wander into 350 points of Aggressors overwatching you with a Calgar Aura? Add in combined overwatch.... especially from a Repulsor variant...nasty. I don’t think Guilliman is ‘bad’. Not by a long shot. But while he’s been turned down a touch, so many other things have had a multilayered buff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknife Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Personally I prefer calgar due to his point cost. Think Gman should have had his aura reduced to re roll 1 and 2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Guilliman is good, the big problem is the fact that he's a Lord of War. With all the great strats available to Astartes, and the fact that we're looking to build a mono faction army means that you'll be taking multiple additional HQs to unlock at the very least a Battalion. We end up spending 500-600 points on characters before we've bought a single unit that can score points or attack at range. Careful list building is required. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Character buffs are a big part of Eighth Edition so that’s not a con. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 People are spending 500-600 points on characters? I thought I was splurging buying my CM a relic blade instead of a power sword. A Captain/CM, a LT, a Chaplain and/or a Librarian. I guess if you are going for the Lord Macragge and Tigurius that’s 350 points right there. On the other hand, you can get a classic CM and Librarian for 160-170 and 2cp... and as UM we have ways to generate extra CP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 How much is a Libby and Lt ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 How much is a Libby and Lt ? Base, for non-Primaris? About 150pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5382971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 88 for a staff librarian, 60 for a LT base. I typically give them a power axe or something that helps them stand out a bit, but BP/CS or Bolter/CS would probably be best overall, since they don't usually want to be in a fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5383009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 I try my best to keep my Librarians out of melee... bad things happen. Anyways 150 points seems well worth it to me for the buffs and debuffs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5383133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 I try my best to keep my Librarians out of melee... bad things happen. Anyways 150 points seems well worth it to me for the buffs and debuffs. I meant instead of Tigurius/Calgar - it's 350 for Tiggy and Calgar, 171 and 2cp for my CM/Librarian. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5383147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 So are you advocating taking three special characters ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5383264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted September 7, 2019 Author Share Posted September 7, 2019 Sounds like two I think? But that did make me realize that It’s a bit harder to get a double battalion going with guilliman considering that you still need four HQ spots. Another point for calagar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358193-guilliman-or-calgar/#findComment-5383302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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