Chaos chapters based on loyalist geneseed

[b1soul]

Just a few questions on my end...

 

 

1. Do we have any idea what is the numerical ratio between Traitor Legion CSM (plus Traitor Legion off-shoot/warband CSM) on the one hand and (previously loyal) "fallen chapter" CSM on the other?

 

2. Has BL ever addressed the relations between these two Chaos sub-groups? I understand that Traitor Legions and warbands derived from Traitor Legions generally hold loyalist gene-lines in contempt. I feel like a renegade UM descendant would have a very hard time gaining respect from any Traitor descendant. Not sure whether their shared allegiance to Chaos would be sufficient to override that prejudice. I'm thinking fallen chapters are in general lower within the CSM hierarchy...with perhaps few exceptions like the Red Corsairs?

 

3. Which are the most famous fallen chapters with confirmed loyalist geneseed?

[Tyriks]

In the Night Lords trilogy, the protagonists definitely look down on the Red Corsairs even when asking them for help. They stress the point that they're essentially newbies to the Long War and do not respect them at all.

[MegaVolt87]

There are a fair few IW who are from IF stock. Honsu being the notable one. Urial Ventrice clone as well from UM. Red Corsairs, BL get a lot of turncoats. AL subverted a whole chapter, was in AL bit in CSM dex, they became a war band. There was another time, Saint something sent 30 chapters into EoT as pentinant crusade, many became renegades. There are more, but those are the standouts I remember off hand if that helps.

[Closet Skeleton]

Death Guard codex has them making marines with stolen loyalist Geneseed so no, they don't particularly care. Black Legion isn't the only Traitor Legion to have soldiers come in from other legions.

 

Honsou became leader of his warband despite his geneseed being a point of contention, the Apothecary Variel joined that Night Lord band fine despite the disrespect that said group may have had at the Red Corsairs.

 

Traitor marines aren't polite but they respect strength.

[Dark_Master]

Most Traitor Legions/ Chapters in the Eye of Terror have to use stolen loyalist gene seed.

 

The warp renders most of theirs useless.

 

DM

[helterskelter]

Most Traitor Legions/ Chapters in the Eye of Terror have to use stolen loyalist gene seed.

 

The warp renders most of theirs useless.

 

DM

It'd be interesting if any traitor legions caught on that fix-it-all has a tidy stock of their original seed

[MegaVolt87]

 

Most Traitor Legions/ Chapters in the Eye of Terror have to use stolen loyalist gene seed.

 

The warp renders most of theirs useless.

 

DM

It'd be interesting if any traitor legions caught on that fix-it-all has a tidy stock of their original seed

 

I think the way to do it would be to cultivate whatever pure stock left in secret bases in real space, then the sneaky chaos ships show up to pick up the new recruits who can be kitted out elsewhere/ have the gear on board ready to go. Or the legions who have significant real space holdings, they focus on recruitment/ geneseed cultivation + preservation. Or if you have an AL buddy, rent some space in their secret bases in Imperial systems/sectors to do it lol. Either that or have a travelling rouge trader fleet with mobile gene labs to keep mobile. Although if you flushed it Han Solo style if about to be caught, you would be having a bad time... 

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Death Guard codex has them making marines with stolen loyalist Geneseed so no, they don't particularly care. Black Legion isn't the only Traitor Legion to have soldiers come in from other legions.

.

I would say if they made a marine using stolen gene seed they would consider the marine 'family' (perhaps a cousin rather than brother)

 

But a loyalist who has fallen would still be held in contempt. Possibly respected because of their strength but not a true legionary

 

After all they were part of the system that the traitors fought against.

 

But mileage would vary depending on the Traitor marines.

[b1soul]

Honsou is chimeric though, no? He's not a pure IF

[Iron_Within]

Most Traitor Legions/ Chapters in the Eye of Terror have to use stolen loyalist gene seed.

 

The warp renders most of theirs useless.

 

DM

 

AFAIK both the Iron Warriors and Word Bearers still have plenty of viable Geneseed.

 

The Iron Warriors had some of the most resilient Geneseed and during the Crusade had the highest levels of Geneseed acceptance rates amongst aspirants. In fact, if not for the wars they fought in the manner they fought them they'd have likely been the most numerous legion.

 

The Word Bearers heavily recruit from their Cultists AFAIK.

 

However both legions legions have massively benefited from being largely coherent and still a Legion compared to other Legions. The other Legions broke down and fractured and there needs to be a whole support structure there to ensure recruitment that just isn't there for most warbands. It's not just Warp corruption that gets them. 

 

This is why Fabius Bile has survived so long, everyone needs him. Even the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors, who are more cohesive than the other Legions, still struggle due to the nature of life in the Eye and the fact that many Apothecaries stopped their ways or abandoned their Legions in their own pursuits after the Heresy. Many Apothecaries ended up around Fabius who on more than one occasion maintained a fortress/world especially for Apothecary's and research that survived by playing factions/Legions against one another.

 

Bear in mind as well, towards the end of the Heresy there has been multiple methods of getting recruits into the fight that have kept going. By the end the Sons of Horus were able to create Legionaries within months not years and so had huge numbers come the siege. These methods could have survived particularly in the Alpha Legion who stole the methods to create new marines quickly from the Raven Guard. But that doesn't mean that other Traitor factions don't have methods, just they have to keep it secret to stop their enemies getting their hands on them.

 

So in that way, narratively, you can have multiple methods of getting new marines:

1. The ol' fashioned way: get boys, put them through deadly trials and the winner Survivors get to be marines. One quote was 1 in 100 Loyalist aspirants become Marines, the CSM aim for theirs to be 1 in 1000, only the best will do.
   1. This could be for scarcity of Geneseed or simple sadism... or both.
   2. This can also incorporate stolen Geneseed.
2. New Renegades join your Legion/Warband and take your colours
3. New Recruits from Fabius and other Renegade Apothecaries - Geneseed origin unknown.
4. The sped up way to recruit used by the Sons of Horus/Alpha Legion and the Iron Warriors using the Daemoncabula (Honsou being a sicko).
5. Cloning Geneseed. See Fabius again. There is no reason why Cloning or other similar methods to speed up warrior recruitment/creation would be used
   1. This isn't largely done in Loyalist Space Marines, because of the risk of mutation and insanity, which many Chaos Space Marines have no concern of, either because they are clearly gifts from the gods (Word Bearers), they'll replace them with cybernetics (Iron Warriors), or they can die first if they're so weak (Night Lords/Black Legion)
6. Other methods (time travel? Those who die are doomed to die again and again in eternal torment MWAHAHAA!)
   1. There is nothing to say that a Chaos Space Marine would not make sacrifices of whole worlds to have the souls and bodies of his warriors returned... everytime they do they're a little more insane.

[helterskelter]

Honsou is chimeric though, no? He's not a pure IF

This depends on what fabius did, he had Honourable Soulakas geneseed, so he is definitely in part an Iron Warrior, it's just which bit is an imperial fist

[Excessus]

The Sons of Malice are originally loyalists too, aren't they?

[Zeke]

The Sons of Malice are originally loyalists too, aren't they?

 

Yes, they are listed as renegades.  It is unknown what their chapter name was before their turn, if I remember correctly.

[Wulf Vengis]

Couldn't the sons of malice have been the sons of malice before they're fall as well?

[Slave to Darkness]

The way I see it the original Legions might get a bit anal with Loyalist geneseed considering its weak watered down crap (some could see the original founding chapters as more worthy, probably not though), but I dont think renegade from succsessor chapters would be so fussy considering their geneseed is of a simmilar quality. They have no reason to be proud as they have not been fighting the long war from the beginning. Thats the way I kinda see it in my head fluff anyway. And whats a better way to spit in the Imperiums face than bastardising 'pure' geneseed by sticking it into a drugged up marine with a foot fettish?

[Marshal Loss]

Couldn't the sons of malice have been the sons of malice before they're fall as well?

 

Per the original lore, their pre-corruption name is a mystery, but it wasn't "Sons of Malice"

[Trevak Dal]

I thought Honsou was a "hybrid" where they used some Imperial Fist organs and some Iron Warrior organs and they looked badly on him because of it.

[b1soul]

Modern Loyalists have lost some organ function...but don't seem physically weaker or slower than Heresy Loyalists (or veterans of the Long War)

[40k nut]

I thought that in the original lore chaos marines were always low on gene-seed, and as a result would gladly steal it from fallen loyalist marines. I think that they are just happy to be able make more chaos space marines and don't care if the gene seed was originally loyalist. It's an ends to a means.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

It really depends on the Traitor Legion or Renegade Chapter. Emperor's Children are narcissistic and as such are particular about their gene seed, but don't mind cloning. Iron Warriors will create chymeriae but look down upon them as inferior. Night Lords are extremely particular about their gene seed as are the Word Bearers due to their holding of Lorgar's geneseed as sacrosanct. The World Eaters don't care and neither do the Black Legion, Red Corsairs, or Alpha Legion. They steal loyalist gene seed like its going out of style.

[Beta galactosidase]

The most obvious is Zhufor, from forgeworld’s Siege of Vraks. He was a Storm Lord, that’s a second founding white scar chapter. He was converted by the world eaters who had take him prisoner and given him the nails. He took over a warband or world eaters, which he used to take over another warband of world eaters, which itself had been an entire loyalist chapter that had gone rogue. On Vraks he absorbed a third warband which made him strong enough to command all the chaos forces on the planet. After he lost he continued to work for Abaddon. So that’s a fallen loyalist leading a mixed force of heresy legionnaires and a renegade chapter from a different gene seed, and I think that’s pretty accurate even for legionnaires who pretend they keep their forces pure.

[Warsmith Annüss]

The Lords of Silence, the their book, have a loyalist turned traitor. He's seen a bit as a child. He hasn't tempered his fury, being only 2000 years of age. He isn't viewed as any less of one the Lords, though.