Rites of Passage

Kelborn · September 10, 2019

@Marshal Rohr: Because it is not breaking any site rules. The existence of non straight people is in fact a thing that should be allowed to talk about. Besides the fact that diversity is important.

All I am seeing is a civilized discussion about a new release from Blacklibrary.

Marshal Rohr · September 10, 2019

I’m not commenting positively or negatively on the topic under discussion, I’m commenting on the fact the last time we had a thread about this it rapidly turned into a political discussion that goes against forum rules. I think these discussions are good, as it lets people get ideas out, I don’t want it to become a free for all of insults and political arguments.

Knockagh · September 10, 2019

Agreed, just what we don’t need here, authors injecting politics into a pastime that gets us away from the real world mess. One thing about 40k, it always left sex and politics at the door. Best place for it.

I was looking forward to this book. Now I feel like chucking it.

aa.logan · September 10, 2019

Don’t chuck it. It’s really good.

And if it’s ‘injecting politics’ or dragging us back into the ‘real world mess’ its not doing any more so than, say, the interpersonal relations between various members of the Ghosts or the fact that Lukas the Trickster alludes to having had sex prior to becoming a Marine. That’s even before we consider the fundamentally satirical intent behind the setting...

As I said, I’m just pleased to see people like me in my favourite setting. It shouldn’t be earth-shattering. If that’s unpalatable for some people, so be it.

Anyway, the book seems to refer to Grox as mammalian, as they possess the aforementioned testicle. So that’s possibly new to the lore too.

Kelborn · September 10, 2019

Be assure that we have a close look on this thread. As long as everything is running smoothly and peacefuly, it is stay open to discuss this novel.

If not, we will act accordingly.

SkimaskMohawk · September 10, 2019

The reason why I addressed the sexuality over the disability is because mainly because the op referenced the former more than the latter. I was also thinking on a macro-level in terms of imperial society/culture, where again, equality is kind of the last priority. But as I clumsily tried to say, context does matter. In the case of more "slice of life" dramas, the particular advantages and disadvantages of an individual are very important.

I'm still kind of confused on the white passing/washing comment. Again on the macro level, the colour of skin is irrelevant to the imperium. What's a white or non-white trait? How is that supposed to have held up in 38 thousand years, across many different planets. Like, how was lheor in the black legion series supposed to have been characterized differently?

Marshal Rohr · September 10, 2019

Skin color has always been one of those things 40k has been ahead of the curve on in books but not models. Even in the early 2000’s when it was mostly male, mostly light skinned protagonists (since white doesn’t exist in the sociological and political contexts in 40k) there were always a far higher proportion of female characters, to include characters like Celestian and the female general in the Commissar Cain novels that held positions of authority and leadership that went beyond the typical Ellen Ripleys and Sarah Conners of classic sci-fi. I remember these specifically because 40k was the only sci-fi genre I read as a kid that had characters like Carmen from Starship Troopers where women were presented as matter of fact filling combat roles and addressing the ‘disposable male’ principle in biology. Even Star Wars had female Jedi, but rarely presented as the norm the way older 40k did.

As for sexuality, it’s a positive when sexuality is presented in 40k fiction because 40k is an escapist fantasy. It’s a negative when it’s used as a vehicle for commentary on modern life because it ceases to be an escape and becomes political in a way that it doesn’t need to be. I’m buying and reading the book specifically to see how well Brooks handles this, because if Twitter is anything to go by he’s adamant about having his way with the IP. He specifically mentions space marines being victims of patriarchy and wanting to include female space marines in his work just to do it. That kind of thing makes me uncomfortable because it shows an aggressive streak to make ‘his’ 40k. In the same way gatekeeping is bad because it excludes people who should find enjoyment in 40k as their own slice of escape, authors shouldn’t just do the exact opposite. It’s reactionary. I’m wary of his writing mostly because from what I see on Twitter he has a very, very shallow understanding of the politics of the Imperium.

RikuEru · September 10, 2019

This sounds exactly like it should be.

It's just a fact in the story.

The Character has a huge pleasure-spire-villa of his own design, a husband and he has that birthmark on the back of his hand. (As an example!)

Just a small detail in the overall story.

Does it break the story or immersion? No!

Is it still a little sign of inclusion? Yes!

...and that's all it takes for certain people, to have that little happy moment of "Yay! Cool, someone like me takes part in this universe."

...and every other reader may or may not even conciously read that fact as something of note.

Any topic like this (sexuality, disabilities, political views, ethics, cultural discourse... etc.) that makes its way into 40k should only be a small mention in the full story currently happening.

That way it is included and CAN make people think - while being read as part of the whole narrative. (And not a virtue signal!)

And the way this sounds, as DukeLeto says, this is a perfect example for this.

A mentioned fact, but not a jarring sign-post.

And that's hard to pull of for authors, especially nowadays. Good work!

+++++++++

Another honorable mention and good example for the whole topic of disabilities and bionics in 40k:

A "specific character" in the Emperor's Spears novel has TOP-NOTCH Bionics. The best the Imperium has to offer for regular humans, in good condition, perfectly calibrated and specifically chosen for the person's 'job'.

During the course of the book the person has these bionics damaged, removed and gets cheap, run-of-the-mill, old replacements.

And it's part of the character progression AND to a degree the main story, that the character has to adjust to this.

Because among other things, their leg isn't as good as the old one and they have to adjust to it, re-learning how to walk.

Mind you, it's just mentioned in a few sentences over the whole novel.

But that was super interesting to read and 'watch' - for me personally.

(Disclaimer: I am not disabled, but I had a foot operation once and it took me a year to re-learn standing, walking, running, cycling, swimming, etc. So I could relate to that very much.)

And these were just small details in an overall good and epic story, for a kickass character, who moved on even though this was a hindrance, because this is 40k and you have to march on and fight - in whatever way or form - or you DIE!

Perfect.

theSpirea · September 10, 2019

After reading this thread I'm sure excited and curious to read this novel myself. The only reason I haven't bought the book is I'm not a big fan of Brook's writing. I've read only a few short stories written by him but it was all mediocre at best and quickly forgettable.

On topic: I'm not a big fan of the modern movement where it's cool/expected of books/movies to comment on politics/ethics for the sake of doing so, as that is usually the case. Can't wait to read this book and see for myself what the fuss is about.

DarkChaplain · September 10, 2019

I generally agree with the point made earlier that inclusion "for inclusion's sake" isn't really a good thing in the genre. I've read too many terrible novellas and novels by now (many I stopped reading) that were so utterly on the nose with its - and I can't think of another suitable term - "virtue signaling", it took all the fun away.

One novella in particular had the sole straight white character portrayed as a massive sleaze, mutilated him and then thrown him out the window to be eaten by hippos... and the rest of the cast didn't care, just made bad jokes about it. The rest of the cast consisted of a bisexual man, a non-binary person who ended up with said bisexual man, a femme fatale that literally forced the dead dude to get her with child, just to then abandon him, just short of killing him herself, and another overweight woman who may have been the most "normal" out of the bunch, considering she spent most of her time with her hippo. The novella could just never stop itself from praising the virtues of one while condemning the evils or incompetence of the other. It took the bisexual character a few pages to get in bed with a boy younger than him, and I thought "yeah, this is new and could be interesting. I also like hippos!", but it quickly deteriorated into those patterns.

I tried reading the sequel, but gave up on it.

Now, I'd argue this is an extreme example of what's bothering me with some instances of highly advertised inclusivity; few authors ever go that far, and I'd argue that - unless it's actually the whole point to portray the characters as sex-driven lunatics - these are more likely hacks in their fields. But considering most of the cases I've read and came away from with negative feelings have been highly promoted in the industry in recent years, with specific publishers making it a point to seemingly drop all the stuff that doesn't fit the bill, I'm wary of those subjects. There's only so many gay ex-imperial torturers in Star Wars that I can tolerate sermonizing about being hated by the rebellion in whose bar he's sitting "for being gay" (when everybody around him knows he participated in torturing their own for questioning) before I just take a step back and read something else and mentally blacklist an author.

That being said, I read the first few chapters of Rites of Passage last night, although I'd best start over as I've been feeling like garbage and probably missed a fair bit of detail over being distracted. So far, I'm pretty happy with it. The narrative voice is strong, the character introduced first (Chetta) is fairly unique in circumstances, attitude and behavior, and the mystery is set up nicely, as is the danger. If the characters' specific sexual interests or whatever are as described, just a little nugget of fluff to their own background or relationships, I'm totally onboard with that. It's only an issue when it disrupts the flow of the book or makes needless excursions just to prove a point, right in the middle of the actual action happening. It does not appear like Mike Brooks does that, so I'm not unhappy with my purchase either way.

Oh, and I noticed that early on in the first chapter, Chetta references a trip to Necromunda - yep, Chetta featured in another Necromunda story, namely A Common Ground. May be worth reading beforehand, although not necessary.

Knockagh · September 10, 2019

Yea I flicked through mikes Twitter. He’s a political man on a mission, changing the world one tweet at a time. BL obviously brought him in to modernise the 40k world. LOL

I didn’t enjoy his necromunda novella so will chuck this one, I’ve enough good books on the pile as it is.

I’ve the same problem with Warhammer Horror. It’s changing the nature and world building of the genre. Warhammer fiction has a definite IP it’s exceptionally unique out there in fiction land.

Horror and diversity stuff is inserting popular trends to find a seeker sensitive audience and so changing the nature of 40k. It’s just big corporations trying to drive sales and i understand that but I just like my 40k non contrived.

Anyway that’s my last comment on the book as I’m sure many will enjoy it. Peace and love brothers.

StrangerOrders · September 10, 2019

I confess to being ambivalent about Brooks in general, his writing just turns me off for some reason (I am one of those people who listens to audio and for some reason some authors give me headaches with their styles) in the same way as Crimson King did.

I am curious how indepth this book goes into the mechanics of Navigators, not the political stuff which is variable, but how they go about their job and the physical strains that go with it.

Not going to touch on the whole race or sex thing beyond saying that as a Hispanic man it really weird me out to hear someone say that a character should have different mental traits than me because they are white, black or asian.

They should have different traits as a result of being raised in a vaguely-familiar but largely alien culture and more often than not in some sort of monastic tradition or nobility (which is what most 40k Protags are). Those things make someone different and interesting but even then they should still be familiarly human. It is really perturbing to think that I would only really be able to understand someone with my own skin colour tbh.

One thing that I like about BL books as of late is that they are for example emphasizing the effect of gene-line in Astartes. Sejanus for example is black but that is by all accounts an insignificant trait in importance to his character compared his being a Lunar Wolf and his special status as a son of Horus. Or Akurduana who is turkic but his features have grown through the lens of the beauty that is typical to his Legion and the blanching effect the seed has on hair. I similarly don't think that anyone ever saw a Terran Salamander who wasn't from one of the three Afrik's as somehow inferior or different beyond being a Terran and therefore a bit of a bummer (Dragon Warriors sound like terrible company).

But I suppose that has alot to do with individual preference.

If we are talking about sex, I favor it where it makes sense. ADB is on record for saying that he wanted Female Custodians on the grounds that they are genetically tailored without gene-seed and that the only recruitment requirement for the Emp was to be a titanic prick to his defeated foes. Apparently the brass was onboard but he got overruled by some guy on the basis that the models were already in production. Given that it is a different kettle of fish. Female Astartes would be really hard to justify in comparison beyond just doubling the devastation of the recruitment world's gene-pool. In comparison it is really cool that the Sisters are increasingly characterized by their fanaticism and skill.

I'd mention the Sisters of Silence but I really dislike their 40k interpretation essentially having them backstab the Emp and converting enmasse to the cult. Although the PoV character in Watchers was amazing (which tbf can be said for all 3 of the book's PoVs).

Long way of saying that I am in favour of internally-consistent world building over having a hot take on our world today.

Which sort of leads me to my disappointment in Grox being mammals, I had always thought of them as Lizards and it seemed that the books were building in that direction.

cheywood · September 10, 2019

If you look on twitter you’ll see most of the authors who share their political views are heavily left of center. Mike’s more vocal about it than most, but Graham McNeill consistently posts his political views as well. Using Twitter to draw conclusions about the content and intent of work you haven’t read seems flawed to me. Warhammer’s a vast and durable IP, horror fiction and LGBT characters aren’t damaging its ability to portray the same totalitarian future it always has.

Marshal Rohr · September 10, 2019

Making space marines from women would, which he explicitly said he wants to do.

Knockagh · September 10, 2019

Sounds like BL need some diversity training LOL

Roomsky · September 10, 2019

In what galaxy is 40k apolitical?

I'm looking forward to this book based on a premise of a less explored corner of the Imperium, and the promise of politicking and intrigue. The book is hardly being sold on how woke it is. If an author wants to texture their story with more overt human relationships, more power to them I say. I always hold that a general shortcoming of BL is the refusal to acknowledge basic human activity that would persist even into it's nightmare future. If anything it's odd we don't see it more often, considering how little the Imperium cares about an individual's personal life. Anyone can be anything in the Imperium, even if it tends toward "mostly slaves."

cheywood · September 10, 2019

Maybe I’m not finding every example of his ‘revisionist’ tendencies, but as far as I can see the examples on display are a few queer characters he’s written and an interview where he said if he could make one significant change to the universe that would be female Primaris space marines. How does that equate to him trying to rewrite the universe according to his personal politics? Every writer presumably wants the setting to be different in some ways. ADB wanted female Custodes for instance. I can’t say what Mike Brooks’ intent is with 40k, but it seems the first step in figuring that out would be to read his works not his twitter feed. I don’t particularly want real-world political views (even ones I agree with) added to my 40k, but I don’t see any examples of Brooks doing so as of yet.

StrangerOrders · September 10, 2019

I agree with you but really dislike your example.

ADB didnt simply suggest female Custodians because he could, he went through a great deal of trouble to make them credible and logical insetting while deliberately invoking a previously unexplored segment of the setting to give them rich detail. He was arguing from the place of making a better story while adding diversity.

Meanwhile the female Astartes thing runs face-first into alot of lore as to why it can't. It also undermines the slap-dab and poorly understood nature of Astartes that folks are still struggling to accept Primaris into by making Cawl increasingly badass.

I sort of feel like equating them does a huge disservice to the amount of work ADB put into the idea.

StrangerOrders · September 10, 2019

Sort of not very tied into the political discussion but you make an interesting point there with the slavery line.

Hiveworlds are uncommon (10% iirc) but have the bulk of the Imperium's population proportionally and the worst ones are pretty overwhelmed with gangs.

So would gangers count as unemployed, slaves or employed? Because either way it seems to represent a substantial portion of humanity's occupation. Without getting into the subcategories therein.

cheywood · September 10, 2019

There’s a definite difference, you’re right. But I’d argue that difference helps my point that one should look to the text when judging an author’s work instead of random comments online. ADB’s suggestion was a serious idea he pursued and worked with the company to (unsuccessfully) realize, Brooks’ was an answer to an interview question. We should judge authors on their results. I’m planning to read Wanted: Dead pretty soon and maybe I will find it overly political. What matters is judging the work itself not a potentially flippant interview response.

StrangerOrders · September 10, 2019

Its definitely true that with enough elbow grease any idea can be made workable, I am honestly more wary when we get into these sort of discussions with the idea of someone letting their views excuse laziness than anything else. To use a similar example I never quite liked the Ewok thing in Star Wars, not because I thought the commentary was wrong or because I failed to get it. Just that I felt that where you could have worked to make it credible the film sort of devolves into a comedy.

I am personally against female Astartes because of the sheer amount of setting inertia but I am not unable to persuaded if the author in question takes on the herculean task of reconciling it with the setting rather than being self-impressed about it.

On the other hand, I would likely be frothing at the mouth about men in the Sisters of Battle. Not because the faith doesnt violate the mandate against it on the regular on a small scale but because doing it so fragrantly without everyone in the Imperium going straight for the head of Ecclisarch would break my SoD. Vandire is better known than Horus and the signal that would accompany it would require everyone in the setting having a bolt shell lodged in their temples to ignore.

I would note as an aside that I am disappointed that this seems to be the area of the book most worthy of attention to get back on topic. I was rather hoping that the book would contain something interesting enough to be the central point of attention. Diversity is normal in the Imperium (well, it has been for years ooc anyway) and doesnt tell me much about Navigators or their houses in particular.

I'd be more interested to know if the Navigators have some knowledge that they are being tracked by a giant conjoined squidmonster on Terra for example, given that they are such a prickly lot about anyone knowing more about the Warp than they do.

aa.logan · September 10, 2019

Chetta is appropriately matter-of-fact about the perils of the warp whilst being suitably wary. She describes the risks she exposes herself to and uses these to rationalise some of her actions in realspace.

The Warp, or at least a navigator’s perception of it, is covered in a way I’ve not been aware of before now.

The Navigator Houses are shown interacting with one another and with planetary as well as Imperium-wide agencies; their relative power is a feature of all of these interactions.

DarkChaplain · September 10, 2019

Yep, Chetta's first chapter was pretty great in that regard. She's a veteran who's seen enough that she can handle it well, knowing the dangers to herself and the ship and crew. I felt like the initial hook of the navigator on schedule going off the grid was presented well, and allowed for enough contextualization for the navigator basics. Feeling terrible while reading aside, I felt it gave me a pretty quick and satisfying introduction to that particular inbred mutant strain of humanity right off the bat, even if I hadn't read a bunch of navigator-involving novels and shorts yet.

Frater Antodeniel · September 10, 2019

Well, what a Topic it is.

Normally i wouldn't add to it, for i'm more of a Traditionalist reguarding those "genders" questions, yet i do think that in the specific case of the 40K Lore, the many problematics/thematics of futuristic societies are to be allowed to exist and questionned. After all, in the grim darkness of the far future, humanity worlds are quite diverse, from Feral World to Feudal World and then Hive World, many pattern of societies may exist.

Before adding more, i would just say that those questions are to be worked on with a Rational/Pragmatic State of Mind, and also, that i'm not a fan/supporter of any kind of idea inclusion for the sake of it. If a writer have to include any thing of the sort, it mustn't be to the detriment of the Book story or the 40K Lore. The concept of forcefully including comtemporary societal problematic into a fictional universe is flawed and will only lead to ressentment, on this i think that both sides can agree.

The question this book bring about gender is an interresting one, and given the fact that quite many Black Library writers come by this Forum, i think that, if managed wisely, this topic may prove usefull for all the authors, so that those who want more "diversity" may do so without it being unpleasant to all kind of readers, and that those who are more traditionalist may find inspiration in this "diversity". To sum up, it could bring balance.

Now that it is said, i will dwel on this particular problematic that is the Gender representation in Warhammer 40K (remember that my point of view is traditionalist, yet rational) :

So, when observing the 40K Lore there are things that will make everyone agree on, for examples :

- On Feudal World, whether they possess high or low level of technology, Tradition and the respect of it is the Key, thus, it is awaited that on a Feudal World the question of Gender is one easily solved, for as anyone could guess, people on Feudal World are Traditionalist.^^ (There may be the representation of homosexuality, but those representation would be more on the sinful tone, as it can be awaited on a human world with Traditional society pattern.)

- On the other hand, on Hive World, it is rational and pragmatic to thing that on such world, the full representation of genders may exist, from fanatic religious traditionalist to iconoclast hedonistic progresists.

Also, regarding the wider human and the non human 40K Universe, there are many things on which we can all agree, for examples :

- Craftworld Eldars tend toward Traditionalism, if not extreme for some of them.

- Drukary, on the other hand are hedonistic, and it have been said in the fluff, that throught the millenia they lived, Drukary are seeking to experience all the sensation of the universe and most notably those ones that are considered forbidden by traditionalist. Drukary are adept of plastic surgery and it would not appear abnormal for a Drukary male to become female for a few centuries only to switch back as a male.

- Regarding the Mechanicum, it wouldn't be a surprise if whole worlds/moons were to be dedicated to the "production" of human colonist. (Imagine the real earth in Matrix, but bigger, industrialised and controlled by the mechanicum).

- Orks do not have genders, Tyranids neither. Problem solved for those ones.^^

- Space Marines due to genetic alteration do not appear to feel sexual pulsions or love in the human sense, yet does it mean that they cannot have attachment feelings. Would it be possible for a Space Marine to express a special bond, a feeling of attachment to someone else. Would it be possible for a Space Marine that fight alongside a Sister of Battle in a either a long campaign or because of specific battle, to develop feeling of attachment, to show kindness.

- And speaking of the Sisters of Battle...well, it would be rational to imagine that, at least in their first years of indoctrination, they may have special interractions, but of this, only the Emperor know, and he is silent.

Well, i think i have added my brick to the building, with i think a rational, equal point of view (as much as possible) on the subject.

StrangerOrders · September 10, 2019

An amusing aside but it seems that alot of Mechanicum aligned people are vat grown and horrified by the idea of childbirth in the natural fashion.

An amusing example is that Princeps from Titandeath that gets pregnant and asks a tech-Adept how it works. Her understanding and horror of it sounds like someone that was just told that they got infected with a chest-burster. Which is pretty fair I suppose.

Astartes are weird, they range from being able to find a human 'friend' to be something akin to a housecat that can talk to actually being more adept at understanding human nature than a true socialite (although from a somewhat removed viewpoint). I think that while ooc it is likely due to authors, insetting it is increasingly explained as having alot to do with the gene lines. It seems like a Pre-Heresy EC, BA, WS or (surprisingly) IF will be better at manipulating and understanding people than an IH, WE or LW for example. This also extends from Feral and Feudal worlds being more socially diverse (this isnt just about gender, race and orientation despite popular simplification of thousands of years of different cultures) than most places in the Imperium, it is hard to tell what kind of Astartes you are going to get without understanding the given culture and running it through the lens of the given chapter and gene-line.

The Night Lords are an exception, their induction process was so shoddy that they couldn't even turn out Astartes properly (the irony of the terror legion being one of the most spineless).

Custodians are too individual to tell, some are very adept politicians and others are only generously categorized as socially passable (Diocletion likely can't be trusted to tend to puppy, much less an infant). Even similar origins are not useful for reference (even the rest of the Terran Unity-era Custodians seems to think Dio is a tool).

Sisters of Silence are interesting in that they are usually surprisingly good at reading people but are terrible communicators, even accounting for the oath of silence.

From what I gather from other books with Navigators, you can count yourself lucky if a Navigator registers you as being as noteworthy as a houseplant. But this seems more from snobbish than an inability to grasp baseline humans.

I am not even going to try to generalize the guard. And I solute the fool up for generalizing 10,000-25,000 years of culture on a million worlds in a way that fits out relatively neat categories beyond what is just intrinsic to a human. Granted, Gardinaal thought bones and jaws were optional in a normal person so even 'human' isnt going to be a helpful baseline.

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