Rites of Passage

[mc warhammer]

In what galaxy is 40k apolitical?

 

I'm looking forward to this book based on a premise of a less explored corner of the Imperium, and the promise of politicking and intrigue. The book is hardly being sold on how woke it is. If an author wants to texture their story with more overt human relationships, more power to them I say. I always hold that a general shortcoming of BL is the refusal to acknowledge basic human activity that would persist even into it's nightmare future. If anything it's odd we don't see it more often, considering how little the Imperium cares about an individual's personal life. Anyone can be anything in the Imperium, even if it tends toward "mostly slaves."

exactly. the entire concept of 40k was and is a political statement

 

 

 

 

Yea I flicked through mikes Twitter. He’s a political man on a mission, changing the world one tweet at a time. BL obviously brought him in to modernise the 40k world. LOL

I didn’t enjoy his necromunda novella so will chuck this one, I’ve enough good books on the pile as it is.

I’ve the same problem with Warhammer Horror. It’s changing the nature and world building of the genre. Warhammer fiction has a definite IP it’s exceptionally unique out there in fiction land.

Horror and diversity stuff is inserting popular trends to find a seeker sensitive audience and so changing the nature of 40k. It’s just big corporations trying to drive sales and i understand that but I just like my 40k non contrived.

Anyway that’s my last comment on the book as I’m sure many will enjoy it. Peace and love brothers.

If you look on twitter you’ll see most of the authors who share their political views are heavily left of center. Mike’s more vocal about it than most, but Graham McNeill consistently posts his political views as well. Using Twitter to draw conclusions about the content and intent of work you haven’t read seems flawed to me. Warhammer’s a vast and durable IP, horror fiction and LGBT characters aren’t damaging its ability to portray the same totalitarian future it always has.

Making space marines from women would, which he explicitly said he wants to do.

Maybe I’m not finding every example of his ‘revisionist’ tendencies, but as far as I can see the examples on display are a few queer characters he’s written and an interview where he said if he could make one significant change to the universe that would be female Primaris space marines. How does that equate to him trying to rewrite the universe according to his personal politics? Every writer presumably wants the setting to be different in some ways. ADB wanted female Custodes for instance. I can’t say what Mike Brooks’ intent is with 40k, but it seems the first step in figuring that out would be to read his works not his twitter feed. I don’t particularly want real-world political views (even ones I agree with) added to my 40k, but I don’t see any examples of Brooks doing so as of yet.

i’ve always wondered about female custodes. unlike astartes there’s no in- universe reason not to

[Marshal Rohr]

If 40k was a political statement you could clearly see what it is stating, but we can’t. That is why it is apolitical. It’s a dystopia where the worst choices have to be made because the alternative is the literal incineration or consumption of the soul. That pure logical calculus is juxtaposed against a society that is beyond the tribalistic/individualistic concerns of the modern day which would seem counterintuitive to any living person. The concept of the entire lack of agency, yet the entire freedom for people to live their lives as the kind of person they are without justification not because it’s a society based on respect, it’s a society built on apathy. You’re free to be what you want, but have no agency. You make no apologies or suffer no prejudice for what you look like, because you’re life is so insignificant you are invisible. Not invisible like we conceive being invisible in society, but invisible from any structural or systemic prejudices. The Imperium won’t punish anyone for their sexual partner, but it will flog you for being late for a shift. Everything from medical care to food is provided by the state, but that food is reprocessed human bodies and that medical care is mechanical replacement or euthanasia. The entire society is supported by a lobotomized slave caste not based on race or being conquered, but by their inability to uphold the social contract of the Imperium that keeps the ship together. Even the rich, as detached from the crippling authoritarianism of the plebes have no agency. 40k is the only setting where a Navigator, in the 1% of the 1% of the richest and most powerful in the Imperium, can be openly homosexual where being openly homosexual has no negative social connotations not because of his wealth, abilities, or power - but because even the highest class like a navigator is still so irrelevant to the entire scheme of the universe that their identities are not part of the social norms that govern Imperial Society - only if he can pilot ships.

 

That’s what is unique about 40k. What crosses the line from the apolitical nature of 40k to a modern parable is if the homosexual character has to overcome some kind of prejudice. Being homosexual would be no different socially than being left handed, or brown eyed, or tall, or short. It’s just something some people in the Imperium are.

[Urauloth]

On Feudal World, whether they possess high or low level of technology, Tradition and the respect of it is the Key, thus, it is awaited that on a Feudal World the question of Gender is one easily solved, for as anyone could guess, people on Feudal World are Traditionalist.^^

 

I'm sure it's true that traditions are important on feudal worlds, but tradition means different things in different places here on earth, so the number of traditions one could be "traditionalist" about on the many hundreds of feudal worlds across the Imperium is probably near-infinite.

[mc warhammer]

If 40k was a political statement you could clearly see what it is stating, but we can’t. That is why it is apolitical. It’s a dystopia where the worst choices have to be made because the alternative is the literal incineration or consumption of the soul. That pure logical calculus is juxtaposed against a society that is beyond the tribalistic/individualistic concerns of the modern day which would seem counterintuitive to any living person. The concept of the entire lack of agency, yet the entire freedom for people to live their lives as the kind of person they are without justification not because it’s a society based on respect, it’s a society built on apathy. You’re free to be what you want, but have no agency. You make no apologies or suffer no prejudice for what you look like, because you’re life is so insignificant you are invisible. Not invisible like we conceive being invisible in society, but invisible from any structural or systemic prejudices. The Imperium won’t punish anyone for their sexual partner, but it will flog you for being late for a shift. Everything from medical care to food is provided by the state, but that food is reprocessed human bodies and that medical care is mechanical replacement or euthanasia. The entire society is supported by a lobotomized slave caste not based on race or being conquered, but by their inability to uphold the social contract of the Imperium that keeps the ship together. Even the rich, as detached from the crippling authoritarianism of the plebes have no agency. 40k is the only setting where a Navigator, in the 1% of the 1% of the richest and most powerful in the Imperium, can be openly homosexual where being openly homosexual has no negative social connotations not because of his wealth, abilities, or power - but because even the highest class like a navigator is still so irrelevant to the entire scheme of the universe that their identities are not part of the social norms that govern Imperial Society - only if he can pilot ships.

 

That’s what is unique about 40k. What crosses the line from the apolitical nature of 40k to a modern parable is if the homosexual character has to overcome some kind of prejudice. Being homosexual would be no different socially than being left handed, or brown eyed, or tall, or short. It’s just something some people in the Imperium are.

except 40k is and was a postmodern political and religious satire

 

no art or entertainment is apolitical; but 40k has overt politics in its DNA

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s really neither postmodern or religious satire, but that has nothing to do with Rites of Passage. If the mods approve it and it can stay 4chan free, it would be a good topic.

[StrangerOrders]

To look into a slightly less complex subject, does the book at all address how the houses various Navigator houses interact with their boss on terra? The High Lord of their ilk who is apparently an uber mutant I mean.

[MegaVolt87]

It doesn't bother me to add stuff like sexuality, disabled etc into 40k. Its a problem when its the core of what makes the character, the core of their struggle and being a Mary Sue to boot as is often the case from certain writers with an agenda. If this guy is trying to infiltrate to do things like female space marines, other setting breakers hopefully he is give limitations to do his work. The last thing 40k needs is another civil war like in video games, comics. We don't need a get woke go broke and lefty civil war here, because right now we are existing fine together. Also we have Sisters of Battle, they are better than IG and pretty good on their own, so female space marines are redundant. Progressives are welcome until they start destroying brands, 40k has always been pretty ahead of the curve on ideas, adding this stuff isn't a problem, people are rightly worried it WILL be a problem later and rightfully so. Respect should be there from community to each other, GW/BL to us and vice versa to maintain the harmony we currently enjoy. 

[Fedor]

I've got to say i've no problem at all with authors using 40k as a setting to explore other things outside the typical genre action adventure/sci-fi/horror comfort zone of the IP. As long as it makes an interesting use of the setting and is well-written i'd be fine reading and critiquing a polemic, or a story with allusions to present day issues. It's a setting that could be great for all sorts of things and i'd rather not restrict it.

[Fedor]

If 40k was a political statement you could clearly see what it is stating, but we can’t. That is why it is apolitical. It’s a dystopia where the worst choices have to be made because the alternative is the literal incineration or consumption of the soul. That pure logical calculus is juxtaposed against a society that is beyond the tribalistic/individualistic concerns of the modern day which would seem counterintuitive to any living person. The concept of the entire lack of agency, yet the entire freedom for people to live their lives as the kind of person they are without justification not because it’s a society based on respect, it’s a society built on apathy. You’re free to be what you want, but have no agency. You make no apologies or suffer no prejudice for what you look like, because you’re life is so insignificant you are invisible. Not invisible like we conceive being invisible in society, but invisible from any structural or systemic prejudices. The Imperium won’t punish anyone for their sexual partner, but it will flog you for being late for a shift. Everything from medical care to food is provided by the state, but that food is reprocessed human bodies and that medical care is mechanical replacement or euthanasia. The entire society is supported by a lobotomized slave caste not based on race or being conquered, but by their inability to uphold the social contract of the Imperium that keeps the ship together. Even the rich, as detached from the crippling authoritarianism of the plebes have no agency. 40k is the only setting where a Navigator, in the 1% of the 1% of the richest and most powerful in the Imperium, can be openly homosexual where being openly homosexual has no negative social connotations not because of his wealth, abilities, or power - but because even the highest class like a navigator is still so irrelevant to the entire scheme of the universe that their identities are not part of the social norms that govern Imperial Society - only if he can pilot ships.

 

That’s what is unique about 40k. What crosses the line from the apolitical nature of 40k to a modern parable is if the homosexual character has to overcome some kind of prejudice. Being homosexual would be no different socially than being left handed, or brown eyed, or tall, or short. It’s just something some people in the Imperium are.

 

 It's not convincing to me at all that many different places in the imperium won't still be dealing with all sorts of different issues of prejudice and injustice inside out outside of the overarching Imperial political framework. Sure 40k books have rarely focused much on this other than passing moments of world building(though Necromunda used a hive to touch on class issues a bit more obviously at times) and even rarer have they used it as a basis to allude to modern day problems( Desert Raiders was one book that did though and without compromising the 40kness one bit ) but i fail to see this as a convincing argument on why it couldn't or shouldn't be done.

 

It is at the end of the day a vastly diverse galaxy spanning human empire, not the Borg.

[StrangerOrders]

 

If 40k was a political statement you could clearly see what it is stating, but we can’t. That is why it is apolitical. It’s a dystopia where the worst choices have to be made because the alternative is the literal incineration or consumption of the soul. That pure logical calculus is juxtaposed against a society that is beyond the tribalistic/individualistic concerns of the modern day which would seem counterintuitive to any living person. The concept of the entire lack of agency, yet the entire freedom for people to live their lives as the kind of person they are without justification not because it’s a society based on respect, it’s a society built on apathy. You’re free to be what you want, but have no agency. You make no apologies or suffer no prejudice for what you look like, because you’re life is so insignificant you are invisible. Not invisible like we conceive being invisible in society, but invisible from any structural or systemic prejudices. The Imperium won’t punish anyone for their sexual partner, but it will flog you for being late for a shift. Everything from medical care to food is provided by the state, but that food is reprocessed human bodies and that medical care is mechanical replacement or euthanasia. The entire society is supported by a lobotomized slave caste not based on race or being conquered, but by their inability to uphold the social contract of the Imperium that keeps the ship together. Even the rich, as detached from the crippling authoritarianism of the plebes have no agency. 40k is the only setting where a Navigator, in the 1% of the 1% of the richest and most powerful in the Imperium, can be openly homosexual where being openly homosexual has no negative social connotations not because of his wealth, abilities, or power - but because even the highest class like a navigator is still so irrelevant to the entire scheme of the universe that their identities are not part of the social norms that govern Imperial Society - only if he can pilot ships.

 

That’s what is unique about 40k. What crosses the line from the apolitical nature of 40k to a modern parable is if the homosexual character has to overcome some kind of prejudice. Being homosexual would be no different socially than being left handed, or brown eyed, or tall, or short. It’s just something some people in the Imperium are.

 

 It's not convincing to me at all that many different places in the imperium won't still be dealing with all sorts of different issues of prejudice and injustice inside out outside of the overarching Imperial political framework. Sure 40k books have rarely focused much on this other than passing moments of world building(though Necromunda used a hive to touch on class issues a bit more obviously at times) and even rarer have they used it as a basis to allude to modern day problems( Desert Raiders was one book that did though and without compromising the 40kness one bit ) but i fail to see this as a convincing argument on why it couldn't or shouldn't be done.

 

It is at the end of the day a vastly diverse galaxy spanning human empire, not the Borg.

 

This is an odd comment and i think it extends to alot of this conversation.

 

40k is over 350-ish books across 1.5 generations of writing, to condemn it to be exactly one thing belonging to one era seems very wrong to me.

 

It has grown to be its own world through organic and oftentimes accidental growth, just look at the sheer power of memes on the popular consciousness.

 

Similarly, saying that books do 'x' and dont do 'y' seems very foolhardy when most of us cannot claim to know the entire corpus by heart.

 

For example, I read primarily books that are combat light because I find the world more interesting. So to hear people say that these subjects arent touched on seems very hard to credit. As is people acting as if the Imperium is the same across 10k years and a million worlds, this goes for a number of factions, heck it even goes to its origins with the insane amount of leeway we SEE Crusade warlords had in their operations.

 

You can find just about any sort of discrimination in 40k, you can probably find any sort of acceptance as well. But in the absolute most simplistic, it is weird for us to stand around here discussing if it is acceptable for a character to have a different orientation or race.

 

When the most probable form of common discrimination in the Imperium is for any poor bastard that has a lick of abhumanity to them (you are doomed if you are a flat-out mutant so i wont even say discrimintion in that case).

 

I know it isnt really sexy or as relevant to today but most of the Imperium is not going to care if the character in this book is gay or of a non-white race. They are going to want his neck for being a filthy abhuman with a third eye and resent him for preening because as much as they hate to admit it they need him to make their crumbling empire work.

[aa.logan]

If 40k was a political statement you could clearly see what it is stating, but we can’t. That is why it is apolitical. It’s a dystopia where the worst choices have to be made because the alternative is the literal incineration or consumption of the soul. That pure logical calculus is juxtaposed against a society that is beyond the tribalistic/individualistic concerns of the modern day which would seem counterintuitive to any living person. The concept of the entire lack of agency, yet the entire freedom for people to live their lives as the kind of person they are without justification not because it’s a society based on respect, it’s a society built on apathy. You’re free to be what you want, but have no agency. You make no apologies or suffer no prejudice for what you look like, because you’re life is so insignificant you are invisible. Not invisible like we conceive being invisible in society, but invisible from any structural or systemic prejudices. The Imperium won’t punish anyone for their sexual partner, but it will flog you for being late for a shift. Everything from medical care to food is provided by the state, but that food is reprocessed human bodies and that medical care is mechanical replacement or euthanasia. The entire society is supported by a lobotomized slave caste not based on race or being conquered, but by their inability to uphold the social contract of the Imperium that keeps the ship together. Even the rich, as detached from the crippling authoritarianism of the plebes have no agency. 40k is the only setting where a Navigator, in the 1% of the 1% of the richest and most powerful in the Imperium, can be openly homosexual where being openly homosexual has no negative social connotations not because of his wealth, abilities, or power - but because even the highest class like a navigator is still so irrelevant to the entire scheme of the universe that their identities are not part of the social norms that govern Imperial Society - only if he can pilot ships.

That’s what is unique about 40k. What crosses the line from the apolitical nature of 40k to a modern parable is if the homosexual character has to overcome some kind of prejudice. Being homosexual would be no different socially than being left handed, or brown eyed, or tall, or short. It’s just something some people in the Imperium are.

You’ve just written why 40k is political, I’m afraid. In creating a model of a society, removed in any way from our own, people are making a fundamentally political statement. Choosing, consciously or not, what societal norms and structures exist is a political act. Projecting humanity in the future? Political. Writing about it in the now? Political. Members of the audience hoping some things are included? Political. Members of the audience hoping some things *aren’t* included? Just as political.

 

I suppose I invited all of this by including a personal response to the text.

 

There have been some fantastic points made, both in relation to the subject of the book and others on the nature of the Imperium generally. For the first time ever, I’ve run out of likes. Didn’t know that was actually a thing.

 

However, it’s all a tad wearing. I’d *really* like to read people’s responses to the book or the depiction of navigators in general. I’m less interested in the conditions under which members would tolerate deviation from the norm, ‘sides’ in a ‘debate’ or the current state of the world today.

 

Before reading this book, I’d always considered the concept of the Navigator to be a bit daft- the idea of a useful mutation happening to arrive just as it was needed stretched plausibility for me. While I appreciated that selective breeding, for want of a better term, was responsible for the unusual nature of individual navigators, and therefore their specific warp-seeing ability, I internally scoffed at the idea of a new eye popping up one day in human stock. This book makes explicit, I think, the fact that Navigators and the Navigator gene came into being through genehancement and engineering, much like the Astartes. Am I the only person to have never considered that before now?

 

Also, in relation to an earlier post, the hierarchy of the Houses on a galactic level is alluded to, with a general fear of the big Navigator Lord of Terra noticing a house or an individual for negative reasons and the consequences of that, but nothing more specific.

[StrangerOrders]

This is touched on in the Sons of the Emperor Anthology.

 

I don't have it on hand but I recall that Navigators were mentioned in the same breath as Astropaths, Sisters of Silence, Custodians, Astartes and Primarch as 'monsters' created by the Emp and unleashed on the Galaxy. Although it is unclear in which case the accuser meant that he founded organizations or structured as opposed to outright created them, Sisters seems like the former since we know they existed beforehand but their nature makes that sort of infrastructure and massing difficult to credit (especially since it is mentioned that Blanks dont usually breed true).

 

It would certainly add up given that for all of his psychic power, the other Perpetuals in the novels seem to note the Emperor most by his genius in genetic tampering and social engineering. Two things that are very strong in the Navigators. There is also that Navigator's seem to resist corruption better than the norm, a trait we know from the Gardinaal in the Ferrus Manus book can be bred for. 

 

Btw, does the book touch on their average religious stance? I can't recall if it has been stated anywhere if the Navigators stick to the norm in that regard with the Imperium.

 

What I do know is that Astartes do typically strike pacts with individual Houses on Legion and later Chapter basis, is this touched on in the book? Being able to call on even a squad of Astartes seems like a really powerful trump card (similar to how that Interragator in Hollow Mountain called in a squad of Tacticals who proceeded to butcher everything even vaguely threatening in the mountain).

[aa.logan]

This is touched on in the Sons of the Emperor Anthology.

 

I don't have it on hand but I recall that Navigators were mentioned in the same breath as Astropaths, Sisters of Silence, Custodians, Astartes and Primarch as 'monsters' created by the Emp and unleashed on the Galaxy. Although it is unclear in which case the accuser meant that he founded organizations or structured as opposed to outright created them, Sisters seems like the former since we know they existed beforehand but their nature makes that sort of infrastructure and massing difficult to credit (especially since it is mentioned that Blanks dont usually breed true).

 

What I do know is that Astartes do typically strike pacts with individual Houses on Legion and later Chapter basis, is this touched on in the book? Being able to call on even a squad of Astartes seems like a really powerful trump card.

The suggestion that the Emperor has meddled with humanity to create the ‘acceptable’ mutations in direct opposition to those caused by Chaos is a really interesting juxtaposition.

 

The book features no marines directly, but the Navigator house that Ragnar Blackmane served his stint with is mentioned. Brooks is mainly focusing on one House; by being specific in this way he is exploring the general. The featured Navigator politicking wouldn’t have any direct impact beyond the sub-sector, Brobantis aren’t the biggest players in the Imperium, giving us a decent overview of a ‘standard’ Navigator House.

 

(Oi! Hollow Mountain spoiler! I’m literally up to that bit)

[StrangerOrders]

 

This is touched on in the Sons of the Emperor Anthology.

 

I don't have it on hand but I recall that Navigators were mentioned in the same breath as Astropaths, Sisters of Silence, Custodians, Astartes and Primarch as 'monsters' created by the Emp and unleashed on the Galaxy. Although it is unclear in which case the accuser meant that he founded organizations or structured as opposed to outright created them, Sisters seems like the former since we know they existed beforehand but their nature makes that sort of infrastructure and massing difficult to credit (especially since it is mentioned that Blanks dont usually breed true).

 

What I do know is that Astartes do typically strike pacts with individual Houses on Legion and later Chapter basis, is this touched on in the book? Being able to call on even a squad of Astartes seems like a really powerful trump card.

The suggestion that the Emperor has meddled with humanity to create the ‘acceptable’ mutations in direct opposition to those caused by Chaos is a really interesting juxtaposition.

 

The book features no marines directly, but the Navigator house that Ragnar Blackmane served his stint with is mentioned. Brooks is mainly focusing on one House; by being specific in this way he is exploring the general. The featured Navigator politicking wouldn’t have any direct impact beyond the sub-sector, Brobantis aren’t the biggest players in the Imperium, giving us a decent overview of a ‘standard’ Navigator House.

 

(Oi! Hollow Mountain spoiler! I’m literally up to that bit)

 

Oh, my apologies there.

 

It is good to work with a standard house I suppose, not every house likely has a Chapter or even a Guard regiment to ask for aid when it comes down to it. Still it is an interesting space to work in!

[Sandlemad]

 

Brooks is mainly focusing on one House; by being specific in this way he is exploring the general. The featured Navigator politicking wouldn’t have any direct impact beyond the sub-sector, Brobantis aren’t the biggest players in the Imperium, giving us a decent overview of a ‘standard’ Navigator House.

 

I'm increasingly feeling that this is one of the best techniques a BL writer can use, finding what is simultaneously unremarkable yet unique about a perfectly normal example of... whatever in the imperium. A representative navigator house or chapter or similar, instead of going straight for the super-special outlier. Sounds easy but it's not and probably won't be rewarded with the same kind of sales that a Space Wolves or Ultramarines book would be. It's basically what ADB did in Spears of the Emperor and seems to have been the guiding philosophy behind all of the Dark Heresy RPG background.

 

RE: the navigator's origins, FW's Inferno does mention them in the same breath as ogryns, as "the descendants of some of the Dark Age of Technology’s more stable flesh-works". It's an in-universe source and is an alternative to their being a creation of the Emperor (unless they were something he worked up during the DAoT, of course) but interesting to see further acknowledgement of them being more than a random mutation.

[Marshal Rohr]

You’ve just written why 40k is political, I’m afraid. In creating a model of a society, removed in any way from our own, people are making a fundamentally political statement. Choosing, consciously or not, what societal norms and structures exist is a political act. Projecting humanity in the future? Political. Writing about it in the now? Political. Members of the audience hoping some things are included? Political. Members of the audience hoping some things *aren’t* included? Just as political.

If it was political you would be able to tell me what it’s trying to say. What is the Handmaid’s Tale trying to say? The West Wing? Star Trek? Atlas Shrugged? Starship Troopers?

 

Now tell me what 40k is trying to say?

 

 

It's not convincing to me at all that many different places in the imperium won't still be dealing with all sorts of different issues of prejudice and injustice inside out outside of the overarching Imperial political framework. Sure 40k books have rarely focused much on this other than passing moments of world building(though Necromunda used a hive to touch on class issues a bit more obviously at times) and even rarer have they used it as a basis to allude to modern day problems( Desert Raiders was one book that did though and without compromising the 40kness one bit ) but i fail to see this as a convincing argument on why it couldn't or shouldn't be done.

 

It is at the end of the day a vastly diverse galaxy spanning human empire, not the Borg.

It’s a fictional story. Prejudice comparable to modern prejudice can’t exist unless you intentionally write it in. They should not be writing these stories as shoehorned modern day parables. It alienates half it’s fans.

[mc warhammer]

 

You’ve just written why 40k is political, I’m afraid. In creating a model of a society, removed in any way from our own, people are making a fundamentally political statement. Choosing, consciously or not, what societal norms and structures exist is a political act. Projecting humanity in the future? Political. Writing about it in the now? Political. Members of the audience hoping some things are included? Political. Members of the audience hoping some things *aren’t* included? Just as political.

If it was political you would be able to tell me what it’s trying to say. What is the Handmaid’s Tale trying to say? The West Wing? Star Trek? Atlas Shrugged? Starship Troopers?

 

Now tell me what 40k is trying to say?

 

 

"being able to tell you what it's trying to say"...just... isn't a criteria of political writing. it just isn't. that onus is on the audience.

 

there's a reason aunt patty thinks 'the onion' is real news or is outraged by the 'betoota advocate'. loads of north americans mistakenly think springstein's 'born in the usa' is basically MAGA in song form. i'd bet a lot of people don't know that 'thor: ragnarok' is about colonialism

 

and let's not forget dr seuss

 

i've read essays that 40k acts as commentary on the cold war, individualism, freedom, hyper-masculinity, bureaucracy, religion, thatcherism, etc

 

the funny fact is, satire can attract people who take it at face value.

 

and that's just intentional political works. all art is political.

 

people within the imperium may not bat an eyelid at a person's sexuality, but it seems quite a few readers do. from anyone who has actually...y'know...read the book and has a problem with the character's depiction...can they lay out what they believe the author has done wrong? actual details would be appreciated.

[Marshal Rohr]

I’m not going to take that apart as it goes way off topic, but needless to say that’s a very shallow take on both the in and out of universe world building of 40k.

[Sandlemad]

Gotta be honest, "If it was political you would be able to tell me what it’s trying to say" strikes me a incredibly shallow take itself and the kind of thing that would only apply to the crude "shoehorned modern day parables" that you're against.

 

Either way, seeing as according to folks who have read it, this book is not a parable or "forced inclusion" or whatever but instead a faily nonchalant act of inclusion that is relevant to the story and fitting to the setting, having a referendum on 40k more generally/female space marines/ is offtopic and liable to get this thread locked, to the disadvantage of folks who want to discuss the book.

[Marshal Rohr]

Well, I bought it last night so I’ll circle back once I have time to sit and read it and leave it there for now. I’m intentionally trying not to go off topic but I’m more than willing to go in depth in another Mod approved thread that doesn’t address specific modern politics but why 40k isn’t political in general.

 

It’s worth pointing out I’m not at all against 40k being a universe where anyone who feels left out in the modern world seeing people like themselves be badass and amazing protagonists. That’s the beauty of 40k. Anyone of anyone persuasion or politics should be able to pick up any 40k book and escape from real life. I’m against using the setting to offer a commentary on the real world we live in now. 40k is great because it’s essentially timeless. It’s lasted so long because of that. If it picks a modern political issue to side with, it ceases to be timeless. Assassin’s Creed Odyssey was a fun game, right? Remember when Kleon shouted ‘Make Athens Great Again’ immediately sucked me out of the story and immersion and brought it back into this :cuss storm of tribalism and animosity we all live in now.

[mc warhammer]

I’m not going to take that apart as it goes way off topic, but needless to say that’s a very shallow take on both the in and out of universe world building of 40k.

 

interesting take, since i'm saying that 40k is more complex.

 

just because something is political or has political messages doesn't mean that's all it is down to the final punctuation mark. 40k isn't 'animal farm'. art is not an either/or zero sum type game. there's an entire spectrum of nuance. 'ragnarok' was about colonialism, refugees, believing in yourself, death, family and big rocks with kiwi accents.

 

that's creativity. 40k has plenty of that.

 

on the topic of this book, the character doesn't seem to be fighting for rights or petitioning to become a serf to the rainbow warriors. he's just an openly gay character, rather than the implied swept-under-the-carpet type. oh, and seems to embrace his disability. looking forward to reading.

[aa.logan]

on the topic of this book, the character doesn't seem to be fighting for rights or petitioning to become a serf to the rainbow warriors. he's just an openly gay character, rather than the implied swept-under-the-carpet type. oh, and seems to embrace his disability. looking forward to reading.

Just for the record, the male character with a husband, Tekoa, isn’t written as disabled (though obviously he may be..). The character whose disabilities are overtly explored by Brooks is Chetta.

[mc warhammer]

 

on the topic of this book, the character doesn't seem to be fighting for rights or petitioning to become a serf to the rainbow warriors. he's just an openly gay character, rather than the implied swept-under-the-carpet type. oh, and seems to embrace his disability. looking forward to reading.

Just for the record, the male character with a husband, Tekoa, isn’t written as disabled (though obviously he may be..). The character whose disabilities are overtly explored by Brooks is Chetta.

my bad.

[b1soul]

A bit of an aside...I'd love to read a novel about a society that follows Chaos but whose citizens are arguably better off than average Imperial citizens.

[mc warhammer]

A bit of an aside...I'd love to read a novel about a society that follows Chaos but whose citizens are arguably better off than average Imperial citizens.

i was wondering about the same thing a while ago