Genestealers - cult or tyranid?

[Rogue]

My primary question is this: do I select my genestealers as Cult elites, or as an allied tyranid detachment (specifically Kraken)?

 

For context, here's my current 2000 point force, which plays as Four-Armed Emperor.

 

Battalion

Iconward

Primus

5 acolytes (flamers, 2 rock saws)

5 acolytes (flamers, 1 rock saw)

10 neophytes

Clamavus

 

Battalion

Abominant

Magus

10 brood brothers

10 brood brothers

10 brood brothers

5 aberrants (2 picks, 2 hammers)

 

Supreme Command

Tank Commander (battlecannon, hull flamer, plasma sponsons)

Tank Commander (battlecannon, hull flamer, plasma sponsons)

Tank Commander (battlecannon, hull flamer, plasma sponsons)

Tech-priest engineseer

 

[ So far, that's 14 CPs and 1500 points ]

 

My last 500 points can do one of two things. Either a patrol detachment of Kraken genestealers, which gets me a broodlord and 32 genestealers (2x16); or I move the clamavus and form a vanguard detachment with a patriarch and 25 genestealers (20 and 5).

 

keeping them in-house gets me less genestealers, generates an extra CP, unlocks the Broodcoven stratagem, and means that I'm going to be dropping in a 20 'stealer blob via Perfect Ambush, backed up with a patriarch. They'd likely tag-team with the aberrants across turns two and three, depending on available targets, to maximise use of Perfect Ambush. 

 

Going out to Kraken gains me 7 more genestealers, access to tyranid psychic powers (catalyst, probably), and opens up the whole super-advance and first turn charge thing that Kraken do via traits and stratagems (with a much bigger second wave waiting in the wings). On the other hand, I lose a CP (and the potential for another d3), and if my opponent deploys deep, I might have a lot of genestealers standing around getting shot.  

 

So if anyone cares to offer any thoughts, I'm interested.

[Closet Skeleton]

I used a squad of 12 purestrains in my cult army for a while and they didn't do much for the list at all. Even if they got a first turn charge it was against something that wasn't worth killing and then they died. Might as well just take more acolytes or aberrants.

[shanewatts]

From my experience vs nids:

 

Basically the main reason to take stealers is because of the kraken slingslot. GSC already has punchy units to come in from ambush so stealers don't really add a lot there.

 

So I would say if you want to use stealers, they need to be nids. The question really is, what role do they fill for you?

[Rogue]

They're my main assault units.

 

At the moment, my force is made up of what I have - 2000 points is all of my Cult models, which is why the acolyte and aberrant units are so small at the moment.

 

So the genestealers are there to drop a bucket-load of attacks on something, or several somethings if they're stood close enough together.

 

I've had success with both approaches. I've had Kraken 'stealers barrel into a marine gun-line in turn one, engaging half a castle. And I've had Cult 'stealers drop out of a perfect ambush and wipe out three squads of chaos marines in a turn.

 

My worry with both versions is screening, but the Cult 'stealers can be held in reserve which gives me a chance to clear those screens with firepower, or even smaller units like neophytes or acolytes, without risking having them shot off the table.

 

With Kraken, if I don't get first turn, every anti-infantry weapon on the other side of the board will be aimed at the genestealers, and blobs of 16 are tough to hide.

 

Kraken feels like a higher risk/reward option - you might gain a first turn charge, but you might get shot up first.

[shanewatts]

The thing about GSC, is that genestealers aren't our best "bucket of attacks" unit. Acolytes and Metamorphs can get more attacks per point than stealers can, and they can come from reserve as well. (And get Cult traits.) Not to mention that Acolytes are troops and have obsec.

[Rogue]

Yeah, my future plans involve lots of acolytes. It's just that £5 per model adds up pretty quickly, whereas I already have lots of 'stealers lying around from Space Hulk.

 

So given that (in this case) I don't have other massively punchy units to drop in from reserve, do you still favour swarming up the board with Kraken over ambushing in?

[shanewatts]

Being that you don't really have a replacement, I can see a use for running them as GSC.

 

The biggest advantage to kraken stealers is they give you a turn 1 presence, pure GSC has the hardest time when their opponent screens out turn 1. This denies the GSC player options, since the majority of their offense is in reserve.

 

I would say it really depends on your meta.

[Akrim]

@Rogue - Dont forget that in a matched play you are limited to 3 detachments. 

 

Some of my GSC lists feature a Nid Kraken Battalion - dual Broodlords which are nasty critters for their low cost and really buff up Genestealers. Don't feel obligated to attempt the turn 1 charge with the Opportunistic Advance strat - for the above reasons mentioned regarding screens. Sometimes its better to Metabolic Overdrive them to a favorable spot in ruins or out of LOS, Catalyst and then go all out turn 2 when the GSC arrive.

[ThePenitentOne]

+

@Rogue - Dont forget that in a matched play you are limited to 3 detachments. 

 

 

 

Are you though? Is that actually an official rule? I thought that was the one that is actually just a recommendation and that most tournaments tend to follow it.

 

If it is in actual rule, can you tell me whether it's in the BRB, CA or FAQ?

[Akrim]

+

 

@Rogue - Dont forget that in a matched play you are limited to 3 detachments.

 

 

Are you though? Is that actually an official rule? I thought that was the one that is actually just a recommendation and that most tournaments tend to follow it.

 

If it is in actual rule, can you tell me whether it's in the BRB, CA or FAQ?

Actually now that you mention it - its an Organized play rule. I found it in Big FAQ. We really need a new edition that isnt spread over several documents.

[Rogue]

I went with Cult 'stealers in the end. Mostly because it unlocked the Broodcoven stratagem, which is really useful, but also because it gave me flexibility with my 'stealer blob.

 

Which was ironic, because in the end they ended up deployed on the field anyway. We played Ascension, and he had Death Guard. The Guard set up to make a big push on the central objective, with swarms of nurglings deploying on all three objectives (we were deploying along the long sides of the table, but in the pointy version). This meant that I could convert three blips into all the 'stealers and the patriarch, and charge the blob of 20 into both squads of 14 pox walkers in turn one. Plus, I could wrap up one of the nurgling swarms to avoid being shot up in turn two. 

 

It went really well - the 'stealers made the charge, I cast 'Might from Beyond' on them, and delivered 100 S5 attacks into the pox walkers, who promptly disappeared. This also meant that I had a line of 'stealers between the rest of his army and the central objective, making it difficult for his characters to advance and claim it.

 

In the end, the 'stealers were whittled away by Typhus and a daemon prince, and could probably have been better used from turn two onwards (still learning how to play an assault-based army), and the game ended in a one-point defeat for the Cult, but it was an impressively scary first turn.