Exploding attacks and how to exploit them.

[bluntpencil]

Hey folks,

 

A friend and I have been doing a thought experiment on how best to have exploding attacks work for us.

 

My first thought:

 

Ultramarine Successor with Whirlwind of Rage.

 

Chapter Master with Reliquary of Vengeance. Ancient with Standard of Macragge Inviolate (-1CP) in a drop pod or Impulsor. Loads of Incursors.

 

Turn one - Charge. Stop roughly 0.75" from the enemy. Leave an approximately 0.75" gap between rank one and two of Incursors. This keeps you in range of the Standard.

 

Activate Squad Doctrines (Assault), Gene-Wrought Might, and the Reliquary of Vengeance.

 

A squad of ten Incursors now has 51 attacks. Re-roll every attack which is not a six. You'll get 62.333 autowounds at AP-1, as well as plenty of other hits.

 

-

 

Another way to do this is playing as Crimson Fists.

 

Take the Indomitus Crusaders Detachment. Use it to take Hero of the Chapter and make a Captain a Grey Shield.

 

Then, take a Chapter Master, preferably with Storm of Fire and the Vox Espiritum.

 

Take loads of Intercessors.

 

Activate Grey Shield. Activate the other Fist tactic.

 

Activate Bolter Drill, and Rapid Fire on one unit. Reroll anything that's not a six. Every six is four hits, at AP-2. Each of those four hits then explode.

One squad of ten Intercessors can easily get way over 100 hits.

 

Another option, so you don't blow your load in one turn, is the Liberator Detachment, with Heroes of Rynn's World. Similar effect, but not army-wide.

[Closet Skeleton]

With Grey Shield and both Siege Masters and No Matter the Odds its only 3 hits per six as both abilities are "an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit".

[bluntpencil]

With Grey Shield and both Siege Masters and No Matter the Odds its only 3 hits per six as both abilities are "an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit".

Incorrect.

 

The owning player decides the order of operations.

 

First one comes up.

 

Siege Masters, you get a six. You also get an additional hit - which counts as having been a six, according to the recent FAQ.

 

You now have two sixes. No Matter The Odds now activates. Those two sixes each get another hit. Four hits, all sixes, for the likes of Storm of Fire, Bolter Drill, etc.

[Lemondish]

The amount of cheese you guys almost instantly crank out is mind-blowing.

[chapter master 454]

Amazing work for chaff clearing...shame chaff clearing ain't exactly profitable.

 

It is certainly impressive because I did consider this sort of thing with Incursors but the level of effort is a little silly. Oh and you missed the Chaplain btw, the litany to get an extra attack which can also explode. Certainly not turn one but since we are going for set-ups, may as well put in the extra ketchup and mustard for bonus points.

 

The main issue is committing to this is more or less committing to what could only be called gross overkill. While having spare change in the equation is nice but you need to remember not to sell too much up one river.

 

Again, I am considering it as viable in some capacity as I firmly believe Incursors will be surprise hits when they get their kit proper and not because they ignore modifiers. The combo of Haywire mines and their paired knifes will just be the right amount of sheer power that a full set of them could be seen as legit terrifying.

Just don't over commit where not needed. I mean...people already just scoop units when I point grav-turions at them!

[bluntpencil]

Amazing work for chaff clearing...shame chaff clearing ain't exactly profitable.

 

It is certainly impressive because I did consider this sort of thing with Incursors but the level of effort is a little silly. Oh and you missed the Chaplain btw, the litany to get an extra attack which can also explode. Certainly not turn one but since we are going for set-ups, may as well put in the extra ketchup and mustard for bonus points.

 

The main issue is committing to this is more or less committing to what could only be called gross overkill. While having spare change in the equation is nice but you need to remember not to sell too much up one river.

 

Again, I am considering it as viable in some capacity as I firmly believe Incursors will be surprise hits when they get their kit proper and not because they ignore modifiers. The combo of Haywire mines and their paired knifes will just be the right amount of sheer power that a full set of them could be seen as legit terrifying.

Just don't over commit where not needed. I mean...people already just scoop units when I point grav-turions at them!

The problem with the Chaplain is that it won't get into position on Turn One.

 

Also... this doesn't just clear chaff. 62 auto-wounds, at -1AP, will drop most things. It'll wipe out a unit of ten Terminators. If your opponent has a squadron of Leman Russes without a good screen, you'll be able to kill 2 of them, certainly, with the third being badly hurt, assuming they've packed them tight enough to charge.

[Ishagu]

If you're building lists around exploding 6s you must be focusing on Incursors as your main infantry.

 

They can be fearsome. It's funny, when the rules dropped people didn't really understand how good they could be in this role (myself included). These guys are literally some of the best cc units as a result, if combo's correctly able to deal enough wounds on anything to bring it down.

[War Angel]

And that how we get nerfed.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Make no mistake War Angel, in December everything in our book will go up in price, and Eldar will get cheaper and more powerful. That's how this works remember? 

 

 

If you're building lists around exploding 6s you must be focusing on Incursors as your main infantry.

They can be fearsome. It's funny, when the rules dropped people didn't really understand how good they could be in this role (myself included). These guys are literally some of the best cc units as a result, if combo's correctly able to deal enough wounds on anything to bring it down.

 

Is the only trick with these guys to pair Gene Wrought Might with Paired Combat Blades? If yes, you're making this sound alot better than it really is. 

[SickSix]

You can't activate Assualt doctrine until turn 3. Right?

[Ishagu]

There is no chance that anything is going up in cost in December. The CA book has already been written and there is no data to actually indicate Astartes are a problem.

 

Also, remember that they die just as easily as before... Unless you're Iron Hands lol

[BluejayJunior]

 

With Grey Shield and both Siege Masters and No Matter the Odds its only 3 hits per six as both abilities are "an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit".

Incorrect.

 

The owning player decides the order of operations.

 

First one comes up.

 

Siege Masters, you get a six. You also get an additional hit - which counts as having been a six, according to the recent FAQ.

 

You now have two sixes. No Matter The Odds now activates. Those two sixes each get another hit. Four hits, all sixes, for the likes of Storm of Fire, Bolter Drill, etc.

 

Per the main rulebook FAQ page 12: 

"Q: Some abilities can cause extra hits or wounds on a specific roll e.g. ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 2 hits instead of 1’ and ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit on the target’. Are these abilities cumulative? A: It depends on the exact wording of the rule in question. Rules that ‘score 2 (or more) hits instead of 1’ are not cumulative. Rules that ‘score 1 (or more) additional hits’ are cumulative. Here are some examples to show how these rules interact: 1. If a model is affected by two different rules that say that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits instead of 1’ then a hit roll of 6 will still only result in 2 hits being scored against the target unit. 2. If a model is affected by two different rules that say that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 1 additional hit‘ on the target, then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3 hits being scored against the target unit."

 

It's only 3 hits, not 4. 

[bluntpencil]

 

 

With Grey Shield and both Siege Masters and No Matter the Odds its only 3 hits per six as both abilities are "an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit".

Incorrect.

 

The owning player decides the order of operations.

 

First one comes up.

 

Siege Masters, you get a six. You also get an additional hit - which counts as having been a six, according to the recent FAQ.

 

You now have two sixes. No Matter The Odds now activates. Those two sixes each get another hit. Four hits, all sixes, for the likes of Storm of Fire, Bolter Drill, etc.

 

Per the main rulebook FAQ page 12: 

"Q: Some abilities can cause extra hits or wounds on a specific roll e.g. ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 2 hits instead of 1’ and ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit on the target’. Are these abilities cumulative? A: It depends on the exact wording of the rule in question. Rules that ‘score 2 (or more) hits instead of 1’ are not cumulative. Rules that ‘score 1 (or more) additional hits’ are cumulative. Here are some examples to show how these rules interact: 1. If a model is affected by two different rules that say that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits instead of 1’ then a hit roll of 6 will still only result in 2 hits being scored against the target unit. 2. If a model is affected by two different rules that say that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 1 additional hit‘ on the target, then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3 hits being scored against the target unit."

 

It's only 3 hits, not 4. 

 

That's assuming they come into play at the same time.

 

They don't.

 

See: Core Rulebook page 178 'Sequencing'. If it's your turn, it's done in an advantageous order. If it's your opponent's turn, you take the disadvantageous ruling.

[Acebaur]

They are worded the same, so they come into play at the same time. It's 3 hits not 4.

[War Angel]

He’s quoting the FAQ, you can’t say that he’s wrong.

[I_Heart_69]

That's assuming they come into play at the same time.

 

They don't.

 

See: Core Rulebook page 178 'Sequencing'. If it's your turn, it's done in an advantageous order. If it's your opponent's turn, you take the disadvantageous ruling.

The fact that you’re arguing that you get to choose the sequencing since the effects happen at the same time hinges on the fact that the effects happen at the same time... so clearly the FAQ ruling applies.

[MrZakalwe]

There is no chance that anything is going up in cost in December. The CA book has already been written and there is no data to actually indicate Astartes are a problem.

 

Also, remember that they die just as easily as before... Unless you're Iron Hands lol

Age of Sigmar released PDFs to nerf the army books that had dropped since the General's handbook went to print so don't be too sure certain - there were a lot of Flesh Eater Courts players sure they had a year of total dominance to look forward to but it got pulled up in a couple of months.

 

For the power level thing I'll be interested to see how Iron Hands or Raven Guard perform when put to the test - I suspect they will both perform better than expected - and the entire codex will be priced around the abuse cases (like Craftworlds Dark Reapers got boned for the power of Ynnarri).

[Ishagu]

The only thing of actual concern are the way certain FW units interact with the IH supplement. GW will need to be careful about how it addresses them when the times comes.

[SkimaskMohawk]

And possibly the chaplain dreadnought with shadow step

[Kallas]

And possibly the chaplain dreadnought with shadow step

 

That's a relatively easy fix: just make it not affect vehicles. Boom, done.

 

Then it doesn't impact the CVD's effectiveness for anyone else, who might not be able to bring a powerful combination.

[Ishagu]

That's not so much a concern. It's still just a Dread assaulting your lines and can be destroyed. It's disruptive and lots of fun, but it's not toxic.

[Cryptix]

I know close combat isn't as strong as shooting, but you can replicate the Infilitrators+Imperial Fist Trick with the Duelists Tactic and Incursors. It's going to be the core battalion of my Raven Guard list, a jump chaplain with reroll charges and catechism of hate and smash captain with the ravens fury and no overwatch warlord trait.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's not so much a concern. It's still just a Dread assaulting your lines and can be destroyed. It's disruptive and lots of fun, but it's not toxic.

What does toxic even mean for 40k game play lol.

[MegaVolt87]

 

That's not so much a concern. It's still just a Dread assaulting your lines and can be destroyed. It's disruptive and lots of fun, but it's not toxic.

What does toxic even mean for 40k game play lol.

 

 

Its the millennial watchword for anything that creates bad vibes and hurt feelings I believe.  

[SkimaskMohawk]

For sure, but the problem with subjectivity is that it's subjective. A lot of the more deployment/maneuver based armies are super gotcha in nature; if you don't know what to expect you can get rolled in one turn. If you do and deploy against it, those lists lose a lot of efficacy.

 

Its like saying I think the undefeated ultras list is toxic, because it's undefeated.