Khârn duels

[TorvaldTheMild]

I still find it hilarious when writers try to make certain characters look good by defeating Khârn in a sparring duel.  Khârn and Argel Tal used to joke about the fact that they never bothered trying in sparring duels, considering it a waste of time, to the point that they'd never once won in the WE's fighting pits.  Once in a while you'll get an author writing that has missed that bit of lore and its pretty funny reading it, it can imagine the writer thinking all seriously at the time and then mirrored by the actual lore of Khârn fighting like a kunf fu drunken master without the master part.  It happens to other characters as well because everyone has biases, but its just funny when they try to do it with Khârn as it isn't really a meaningful win lol.

[mc warhammer]

examples?

[Roomsky]

The only one that springs to mind immediately is the exception: Khârn vs Amit. They were both pretty clearly trying to kill each other, and it slots well into what ADB describes in Betrayer.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

 

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

[dice4thedicegod]

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

The fight against Erebus at the end of betrayer is, I think, the first time we see Khârn fight amazingly.

[mc warhammer]

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

 

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

 

from memory;  orfeo may have been a more technically proficient fighter but Khârn and he were fairly neck and neck

 

but i agree in that, while an absolute beast in battle, he's not a notable duelist from what i've read. and doesn't care to be

[TorvaldTheMild]

The only one that springs to mind immediately is the exception: Khârn vs Amit. They were both pretty clearly trying to kill each other, and it slots well into what ADB describes in Betrayer.

Emit was a ridiculous example of what I'm talking about, they weren't trying to kill one another that was a sparring duel  in the short story there was no point to that story other than two random duels where he has a moral victory over Lucius and then over Khârn where he says 'You don;t know what real rage is, we have it in our blood'. clearly just to make blood angels look badass.  I mean that writer couldn't be more obvious, he tries to explain that it was because the two blood angels were fighting and didn't like one another so instead of logically having them fight one another they have to fight two of the best fighters in the whole legions, literally one of the most biased self serving novels I've read of the BL writers, a completely pointless short story.  Also no where as bad but the one with Sigusmund where Khârn not only doesn't try but he actively has to hold back but in this one he manages not to go berzerk and then says 'I wasn't holding back'.  Even if Sigismund won in a real fight, you could except that as he's never been bested but making him not hold back was unnecessary as before its stated in the lore that Khârn always had to, otherwise he'd kill his opponents. 

[mc warhammer]

 

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

The fight against Erebus at the end of betrayer is, I think, the first time we see Khârn fight amazingly.

 

 

which is impressive, since erebus is lucius level in a cage fight

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

The fight against Erebus at the end of betrayer is, I think, the first time we see Khârn fight amazingly.

 

Yeah after Argel died he started actually trying in the pits, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking before the Heresy and up until Argels death.  But also Khârn was seeking to kill Erebus.

 

 

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

The fight against Erebus at the end of betrayer is, I think, the first time we see Khârn fight amazingly.

 

 

which is impressive, since erebus is lucius level in a cage fight

 

Not so, he only said he held his own against Lucius for 16 minutes before Lucius got first blood.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

The fight against Erebus at the end of betrayer is, I think, the first time we see Khârn fight amazingly.

 

Yeah after Argel died he started actually trying in the pits, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking before the Heresy and up until Argels death.  But also Khârn was seeking to kill Erebus.

 

 

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

The fight against Erebus at the end of betrayer is, I think, the first time we see Khârn fight amazingly.

 

 

which is impressive, since erebus is lucius level in a cage fight

 

Not so, he only said he held his own against Lucius for 16 minutes before Lucius got first blood.

 

 

 

16 minutes against a master swordsman probably makes you a master swordsman.

 

the fight, as i recall, was awe inspiring; causing the mournival (including abs) to freak out... unable to bet on who the winner would be and not wanting to take on either of them on.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

 

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

The fight against Erebus at the end of betrayer is, I think, the first time we see Khârn fight amazingly.

 

Yeah after Argel died he started actually trying in the pits, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking before the Heresy and up until Argels death.  But also Khârn was seeking to kill Erebus.

 

 

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

The fight against Erebus at the end of betrayer is, I think, the first time we see Khârn fight amazingly.

 

 

which is impressive, since erebus is lucius level in a cage fight

 

Not so, he only said he held his own against Lucius for 16 minutes before Lucius got first blood.

 

 

 

16 minutes against a master swordsman probably makes you a master swordsman.

 

the fight, as i recall, was awe inspiring; causing the mournival (including abs) to freak out... unable to bet on who the winner would be and not wanting to take on either of them on.

 

I never said he wasn't good, just that he wasn't his equal.  

[mc warhammer]

maybe we're splitting hairs between "level" and "equal". i back my original statement though

[Roomsky]

 

The only one that springs to mind immediately is the exception: Khârn vs Amit. They were both pretty clearly trying to kill each other, and it slots well into what ADB describes in Betrayer.

Emit was a ridiculous example of what I'm talking about, they weren't trying to kill one another that was a sparring duel  in the short story there was no point to that story other than two random duels where he has a moral victory over Lucius and then over Khârn where he says 'You don;t know what real rage is, we have it in our blood'. clearly just to make blood angels look badass.  I mean that writer couldn't be more obvious, he tries to explain that it was because the two blood angels were fighting and didn't like one another so instead of logically having them fight one another they have to fight two of the best fighters in the whole legions, literally one of the most biased self serving novels I've read of the BL writers, a completely pointless short story.  Also no where as bad but the one with Sigusmund where Khârn not only doesn't try but he actively has to hold back but in this one he manages not to go berzerk and then says 'I wasn't holding back'.  Even if Sigismund won in a real fight, you could except that as he's never been bested but making him not hold back was unnecessary as before its stated in the lore that Khârn always had to, otherwise he'd kill his opponents. 

 

 

Seemed pretty explicit to me that Khârn was trying to kill him. Blood Angels drivel it may have been, but I have no issue with Amit being able to match Khârn. The idea that any legion champion could faceroll another in a 1v1 is cartoonish, not impressive.

[b1soul]

Just because you beat a guy on a certain occasion, doesn't mean the guy isn't your equal

[Apothecary Vaddon]

You're entering moonreaper territory with these threads dude, stop before you cross the abyss

[The_son_of_Dorn]

A duel doesnt define the overall better warrior throughout time. It defines the better warrior at that moment in time.

 

Nothing to say that a rematch could have a totally different outcome for whatever the reason.

[bluntblade]

Khârn also fares respectably against Orfeo on Armatura. Considering he's been fighting wounded for hours at that stage.

 

Compare him against Lucius and he's still doing quite nicely.

[TorvaldTheMild]

You're entering moonreaper territory with these threads dude, stop before you cross the abyss

Eh?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Moonreaper = bit of a a nutter/closet fluff twister.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Moonreaper = bit of a a nutter/closet fluff twister.

Ah.

[Knight of the Raven]

Betrayer spoilers.

Khârn all but ambushed an unsuspecting Erebus in the fighting pits with a demand they fight to the death. The both of them certainly are skilled, so Erebus not even noticing his hand had been cut off before he noticed it lying on the floor remains impressive. But an Erebus who was expecting such a battle—and opted to fight until only one was left standing instead of running away at the first opportunity—would probably have fared better.

Mind, Khârn was in the throes of cold, depthless, personal murderous rage, so Erebus would most likely still have ended up repainting the walls with his own guts.

We don't know how his fight with Orfeo Cassandar, Legatus of Armatura, would have gone because it didn't end properly. Ignoring that Argel Tal would have very probably intervened if Khârn did lose the fight, they echoed the fight between Crom the Conqueror and Grimgor Ironhide in the Old World: Khârn eventually stepped away to make him notice that he was the last living Ultramarine on the battlefield, surrounded by scores of World Eaters.

Still, Orfeo was skilled enough for Khârn of all people to all but mancrush over him as soon as he laid his eyes on him. Orfeo even taunted him with the fact that he was a poor swordsman, always using his weapon like a machete and never ever using thrusts as he was.

Going on a tangent, the Butcher's Nails give with one hand and take with the other, so I don't know if Khârn would be as good without them. But he certainly can't match Orfeo's "perfect economy of movement and balance and application of strength," to use his own description of the Legatus, with them.

As for before the Heresy, that a guy with a murder drug-machine in his brain apparently always managed to restrict itself to minimal effort in the fighting pits is very telling about how seriously he took those fights.

(The "apparently" is there for a reason. Betrayer and Praetorian of Dorn are the only Horus Heresy novels I read.)

[TorvaldTheMild]

Betrayer spoilers.

 

Khârn all but ambushed an unsuspecting Erebus in the fighting pits with a demand they fight to the death. The both of them certainly are skilled, so Erebus not even noticing his hand had been cut off before he noticed it lying on the floor remains impressive. But an Erebus who was expecting such a battle—and opted to fight until only one was left standing instead of running away at the first opportunity—would probably have fared better.

 

Mind, Khârn was in the throes of cold, depthless, personal murderous rage, so Erebus would most likely still have ended up repainting the walls with his own guts.

 

We don't know how his fight with Orfeo Cassandar, Legatus of Armatura, would have gone because it didn't end properly. Ignoring that Argel Tal would have very probably intervened if Khârn did lose the fight, they echoed the fight between Crom the Conqueror and Grimgor Ironhide in the Old World: Khârn eventually stepped away to make him notice that he was the last living Ultramarine on the battlefield, surrounded by scores of World Eaters.

 

Still, Orfeo was skilled enough for Khârn of all people to all but mancrush over him as soon as he laid his eyes on him. Orfeo even taunted him with the fact that he was a poor swordsman, always using his weapon like a machete and never ever using thrusts as he was.

 

Going on a tangent, the Butcher's Nails give with one hand and take with the other, so I don't know if Khârn would be as good without them. But he certainly can't match Orfeo's "perfect economy of movement and balance and application of strength," to use his own description of the Legatus, with them.

As for before the Heresy, that a guy with a murder drug-machine in his brain apparently always managed to restrict itself to minimal effort in the fighting pits is very telling about how seriously he took those fights.

 

(The "apparently" is there for a reason. Betrayer and Praetorian of Dorn are the only Horus Heresy novels I read.)

I'm not debating Kharns skills, I'm debating the use of him in novels to make the other guy look good.  Khârn has never been portrayed as a swordsman.  As for being a swordsman, that is irrelevant in judging a fight.  Swordsmen can easily be killed by a brawler and vice versa and there is no end to the list of swordsmen that Khârn his killed, also just saying and boasting you can win doesn't, mean you will.  Sometimes being a swordsmen can be a weakness as you are constantly playing out rigid and predictable movements, take Lucius getting headbutted by Loken, if that was a real fight Lucius would have been dead. Take Angron, he is no swordsmen but he's the top three of the Primarchs in CC ability.  Also swords are relatively poor weapons unless they are wielded with a shield, there is a reason why armoured knights used pole axes etc. and only use their sword as a secondary weapon and for personal safety outside of battle.  Hollywood has always glorified the sword, but considering history its a very overrated weapon.  They have the rule of cool, no doubt but When I hear swordsman, I don't think like most people do, if I was in a battle I'd rather have a spear or any other pole weapon like a glaive or warhammer.

[Moonreaper666]

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

 

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

Didn't Sigismund beat Khârn once in the pits? (Though Khârn rarely gives his all in those fights)

 

Heresy Khârn is a much weaker beast compared to his Post-Heresy self, defeating Celestine and fully capable of wiping out entire Companies of Loyalist Astartes within seconds

 

Maybe there should be a bunch of short stories in which Khârn, Typhus, Lucius, Bile (he did defeat Logan Grimnar), Ahriman, Honsou, Talos fight Chapter Masters before the 41st Millenium?

 

Khârn vs the CM of the Black Templars (Khârn comments how weak the Templars are compared to the Heresy version, relying too much on numbers)

 

Lucius vs the CMs of the Blood Angel AND Flesh Tearer (Lucius utilizes the Black Rage against them)

 

Typhus vs a CM of the Black Consuls (Speed isn't that great when Typhus can teleport and kill you with one little scratch mark)

 

Ahriman vs a CM of the Imperial Fists

 

Talos vs a CM of the Dark Angels

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

Yea I don't really remember Khan getting set up as one of the great legion fighters, only to get lose in duels a lot. Loken beat him, but that was on the battlefield; the ultramarine on armatura was technically more skilled I think, but lost in the end.

 

In fact, he's rarely included in the list of crazy good fighters like abaddon, raldoran, sevatar and jubal. In fact I can't really think of one example when he is.

Didn't Sigismund beat Khârn once in the pits? (Though Khârn rarely gives his all in those fights)

 

Heresy Khârn is a much weaker beast compared to his Post-Heresy self, defeating Celestine and fully capable of wiping out entire Companies of Loyalist Astartes within seconds

 

Maybe there should be a bunch of short stories in which Khârn, Typhus, Lucius, Bile (he did defeat Logan Grimnar), Ahriman, Honsou, Talos fight Chapter Masters before the 41st Millenium?

 

Khârn vs the CM of the Black Templars (Khârn comments how weak the Templars are compared to the Heresy version, relying too much on numbers)

 

Lucius vs the CMs of the Blood Angel AND Flesh Tearer (Lucius utilizes the Black Rage against them)

 

Typhus vs a CM of the Black Consuls (Speed isn't that great when Typhus can teleport and kill you with one little scratch mark)

 

Ahriman vs a CM of the Imperial Fists

 

Talos vs a CM of the Dark Angels

 

Yeah he lost to Sigismund twice, one with Argel Tal and another in the silent war though it might be the same one however there is no mention of Argel Tal, but its the inconsistencies in the lore, where the writer suddenly made Khârn try his best.  I mean its an obvious bias because he read the previous lore as he is said not to have tried but for Sigismund for some strange reason he suddenly tried.

 

No doubt Khârn is nothing in the Heresy compared to 40k, its not an issue of Khârn being good or not as like him or not you have to respect his CC ability.  I mean if people are being fair, those two cases are extremely biased and contrived.

[bluntblade]

To give Moonreaper props this once, Sigismund and Khârn both emphasise that pit duelling isn't his thing. If anything, it's framed more as Sigismund's inability to ever, ever switch off (and to emphasise him learning from Sevatar's dirty trick) than any failing of Khârn's.

 

Also it rather figures that Khârn the Betrayer, Chosen of the Blood God, has taken a few levels in the last ten millennia.

 

However, I don't think he's taken real beatings when it's mattered.