Khârn duels

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yes, Khârn lost to sigismund in the pits. But the OP was talking about "characters looking good by beating Khan in sparring". I didn't mention that, because in my opinion, sigismund is the premiere marine duelist and has had such good representation in his fight scenes that we know how true that is. He already looks good; it's what he's renowned for.

 

Khârn really does not get used to hype anyone else's fighting abilities up, at least in what I've read of him. Maybe that will change during the siege though.

[Moonreaper666]

To give Moonreaper props this once, Sigismund and Khârn both emphasise that pit duelling isn't his thing. If anything, it's framed more as Sigismund's inability to ever, ever switch off (and to emphasise him learning from Sevatar's dirty trick) than any failing of Khârn's.

 

Also it rather figures that Khârn the Betrayer, Chosen of the Blood God, has taken a few levels in the last ten millennia.

 

However, I don't think he's taken real beatings when it's mattered.

Should Sigismund fight Khârn at Terra, with Khârn dying and Sigismund be severely wounded?

 

Sigismund didn't do that well during the Solar War. A dozen Veteran SoH soften him up to the point that Little Horus defeated him. Heresy Khârn is much more suited to prolonged battles than Sigismund

[mc warhammer]

man, shouldn't a dozen veteran SoH be a really bloody big threat? give me a hundred space marines. or failing that give me a thousand other troops may be hyperbole, but lets not redshirt them all either

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea sigismund is essentially ambushed on his command deck and completely surrounded. He takes wounds, which is completely within reason, but saying "he didn't do that well" is a little silly. Even being softened up and then saved, the boarding action still ended with him about to kill aximand, despite all of his wounds and battle damage.

[b1soul]

A dozen SM softening Sigismund up (not politely one at a time, but repeatedly coming at him from different angles) is realistic.

 

Sigismund could probably butcher them all in a narrow corridor, but in a more open space, it would be hard for him to avoid some serious damage

[bluntblade]

And so it is. It was a testament to French's ability that despite knowing where Sigismund's fate lies, I was still in suspense throughout that scene.

 

@Skimask: I was actually trying to argue the same thing. I don't think Khârn has been mistreated by the authors to make other characters to look good.

[TorvaldTheMild]

And so it is. It was a testament to French's ability that despite knowing where Sigismund's fate lies, I was still in suspense throughout that scene.

 

@Skimask: I was actually trying to argue the same thing. I don't think Khârn has been mistreated by the authors to make other characters to look good.

Well I could be wrong but that is definitely how I saw it, but lets not try and pretend that authors aren't guilty of this, I've seen it happen with armies I don't collect.

[b1soul]

I was in suspense for Aximand

[bluntblade]

I've seem it happen with Lucius, but I can't recall any instance where I've seen Khârn beaten as shorthand for "this character is great" except for Sigismund, arguably.

 

And I argue against it being there solely to make Sigismund look good.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I've seem it happen with Lucius, but I can't recall any instance where I've seen Khârn beaten as shorthand for "this character is great" except for Sigismund, arguably.

 

And I argue against it being there solely to make Sigismund look good.

Well why would it have been written as such a serious duel etc.  If Khârn doesn't try as its foolish then you can't exactly write a serious duel and the writer had to know of the fact that Khârn holds back otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it and then makes Khârn say he was trying his best.  How do you honestly explain that.  I mean Kharns sparring duels had been written comically because of that fact and suddenly its the most serious and reverent duel with Sigusmund.  Most of Silent knight was Imperial Fist gushing.  If the writer was being honest he would have continued the lore rather than changing it for that one incident.  The only reason to change that is to make Sigusmund look good as if it was accurate no one would care that Sigusmund won.

[bluntblade]

I'm just going to grab my Kindle to check, but with multiple reads under my belt it always seemed to me like Khârn was being modest or something. Sigismund points out that when it comes down to life-or-death, Khârn demonstrates why he is one of the Great Warriors.

 

I would actually go so far as to say that French's handling of Sigismund has been consistently good, and remarkably insightful considering that his scenes are largely action.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I'm just going to grab my Kindle to check, but with multiple reads under my belt it always seemed to me like Khârn was being modest or something. Sigismund points out that when it comes down to life-or-death, Khârn demonstrates why he is one of the Great Warriors.

 

I would actually go so far as to say that French's handling of Sigismund has been consistently good, and remarkably insightful considering that his scenes are largely action.

Well have a read and then we can discus it afterwords.

[bluntblade]

I revisited it, and the text is clearly nudging the reader towards the conclusion that Khârn is holding back, consciously or not, and he explicitly treats the cages as a sort of play - "this foolishness". The fights aren't really about who wins, but are part of French's little character study.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Lucius is for sure the whipping boy of the series. Sanahkt, loken, Demeter and sharrowkyn all beat him up. And it's not like youre having a preestablished character show their skills off.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I revisited it, and the text is clearly nudging the reader towards the conclusion that Khârn is holding back, consciously or not, and he explicitly treats the cages as a sort of play - "this foolishness". The fights aren't really about who wins, but are part of French's little character study.

You need to read all of it, at the end Khârn says he didn't hold back.

Lucius is for sure the whipping boy of the series. Sanahkt, loken, Demeter and sharrowkyn all beat him up. And it's not like youre having a preestablished character show their skills off.

Yeah he's treated worse than any other, doesn't mean he's the only one to have been whipped lol.  and that always bothered me about Lucius, he's been beaten so many times that Slaanesh had to make him immortal, which doesn't really speak volumes of one of the best swordsman ever. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, I can't really see "beating Khârn" as a trope, given how few times it's happened, and he's never really been said to be an amazing duelist either. Lucius is definitely the Worf of the Heresy novels.

[b1soul]

Khârn thinks the fighting pits are a waste of time. When he does sanguine extremis with Erebus, that's when he shows how extremely dangerous he can be.

 

To Sigismund, he says something like Sigismund would be truly scary if Sigismund were to stop holding back, and in that case, he [Khârn] would have to stop holding back to have a chance of beating him [sigismund].

 

Anyway, losing to Sigismund in a duel doesn't make Khârn 30K's Worf. Sigismund is the best duelist in the setting. Khârn excels on the actual battlefield or in the fighting pits when he actually cares.

 

Erebus is on par with Lucius, and Khârn absolutely destroys him with freakish speed.

[Indefragable]

Lucius is definitely in Worf territory, tho Gino think there is a bit of an author’s guilty pleasure involved, since the guy’s such a twat that few ppl will cry over him getting diced up a bit early on.

 

In the Amit vs Khârn duel, it’s suggested that they fight on their own far away from others because they are the only two souls each other trusts to go all out with out actually killing each other. They are mirror images of each other in a lot of ways. It’s also suggested in that story that it’s not the first time and that it has gone either direction in the past. The context/theme of the story is also to show that Amit has finally learned at least part of the lesson Sanguinius was trying to teach him, and that is why he is able to defeat Khârn.

 

Yes, I am biased toward the BA, but that story does nothing but present Khârn as a competent, worthy opponent who anyone would have a hard time going against, holding back or not. The match between Lucius and Azkaellon, on the other hand...

 

I don’t disagree with the OP’s state,ent, but I do not entirely agree either. I think the issue is that we haven’t really seen enough to put things in perspective of what should be considered impressive.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Khârn thinks the fighting pits are a waste of time. When he does sanguine extremis with Erebus, that's when he shows how extremely dangerous he can be.

 

To Sigismund, he says something like Sigismund would be truly scary if Sigismund were to stop holding back, and in that case, he [Khârn] would have to stop holding back to have a chance of beating him [sigismund].

 

Anyway, losing to Sigismund in a duel doesn't make Khârn 30K's Worf. Sigismund is the best duelist in the setting. Khârn excels on the actual battlefield or in the fighting pits when he actually cares.

 

Erebus is on par with Lucius, and Khârn absolutely destroys him with freakish speed.

I never said he was worf, but those two instances those writers were trying to make him warf.  No Khârn said if Sigusmund lost control he would have to try and kill him.  Khârn says 'explicitly in the short story 'no I was not holding back' because Sigusmund says that Khârn was holding back, to which Khârn says he wasn't.  

[TorvaldTheMild]

Lucius is definitely in Worf territory, tho Gino think there is a bit of an author’s guilty pleasure involved, since the guy’s such a twat that few ppl will cry over him getting diced up a bit early on.

 

In the Amit vs Khârn duel, it’s suggested that they fight on their own far away from others because they are the only two souls each other trusts to go all out with out actually killing each other. They are mirror images of each other in a lot of ways. It’s also suggested in that story that it’s not the first time and that it has gone either direction in the past. The context/theme of the story is also to show that Amit has finally learned at least part of the lesson Sanguinius was trying to teach him, and that is why he is able to defeat Khârn.

 

Yes, I am biased toward the BA, but that story does nothing but present Khârn as a competent, worthy opponent who anyone would have a hard time going against, holding back or not. The match between Lucius and Azkaellon, on the other hand...

 

I don’t disagree with the OP’s state,ent, but I do not entirely agree either. I think the issue is that we haven’t really seen enough to put things in perspective of what should be considered impressive.

Nah, that short story was literally the most biased thing I've read.  Far worse than the Sigusmund one was.  It has two of the blood angels go up against two of the best fighters for no reason what so ever other than the contrived 'lesson' which isn't a lesson at all.  Amit and Azkaellon fight with one another all the time and the logical thing to do would have them fight one another and work out their aggression towards one another but the author thinks duelling two random people is going to show them the error of there ways, I mean come on.  Azkaelon loses but he wins a Pyrrhic victory with Lucius to make him look good.  I may be wrong or biased with the Sigusmund one but the blood angel one was pure warfism, if it had some sort of logical story to it, other than two random duels both having to be awesome fighters somehow to learn not to fight with one another...  Also the whole 'you don't know what real rage is, even though Amit doesn't suffer from the black rage etc. was a bit too much.  Plus I don't have a problem with Khârn being beaten, even if he tries his best, like with Loken as that was well written, but also because Khârn doesn't try when he's having sparring duels even if I was biased you could excuse him losing because of that lack of trying and the fact that he's a totally different beast after the HH.  I just noticed it more because Khârn is my favourite character, but I still see it all the time with Lucius, SW's (as a lot of people hate them), Cruze, even with the thousand sons and word bearers because they are 'nerdy' and 'zealots'.  I mean I even think the battering that Guilliman took against Angron was a bit much seeing that he was subdued by the communion, who were able to put him into unconsciousness before, they could have had Angron win, but have Guilliman put up a better fight and I have a love hate relationship with Guilliman as I like him as a character but GW are trying their best to make people hate him with all the Mary sueness..

[mc warhammer]

i mean; sparring cages and battlefield are two different things

[TorvaldTheMild]

i mean; sparring cages and battlefield are two different things

Exactly.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Lucius is definitely in Worf territory, tho Gino think there is a bit of an author’s guilty pleasure involved, since the guy’s such a twat that few ppl will cry over him getting diced up a bit early on.

 

In the Amit vs Khârn duel, it’s suggested that they fight on their own far away from others because they are the only two souls each other trusts to go all out with out actually killing each other. They are mirror images of each other in a lot of ways. It’s also suggested in that story that it’s not the first time and that it has gone either direction in the past. The context/theme of the story is also to show that Amit has finally learned at least part of the lesson Sanguinius was trying to teach him, and that is why he is able to defeat Khârn.

 

Yes, I am biased toward the BA, but that story does nothing but present Khârn as a competent, worthy opponent who anyone would have a hard time going against, holding back or not. The match between Lucius and Azkaellon, on the other hand...

 

I don’t disagree with the OP’s state,ent, but I do not entirely agree either. I think the issue is that we haven’t really seen enough to put things in perspective of what should be considered impressive.

Nah, that short story was literally the most biased thing I've read.  Far worse than the Sigusmund one was.  It has two of the blood angels go up against two of the best fighters for no reason what so ever other than the contrived 'lesson' which isn't a lesson at all.  Amit and Azkaellon fight with one another all the time and the logical thing to do would have them fight one another and work out their aggression towards one another but the author thinks duelling two random people is going to show them the error of there ways, I mean come on.  Azkaelon loses but he wins a Pyrrhic victory with Lucius to make him look good.  I may be wrong or biased with the Sigusmund one but the blood angel one was pure warfism, if it had some sort of logical story to it, other than two random duels both having to be awesome fighters somehow to learn not to fight with one another...  Also the whole 'you don't know what real rage is, even though Amit doesn't suffer from the black rage etc. was a bit too much.  Plus I don't have a problem with Khârn being beaten, even if he tries his best, like with Loken as that was well written, but also because Khârn doesn't try when he's having sparring duels even if I was biased you could excuse him losing because of that lack of trying and the fact that he's a totally different beast after the HH.  I just noticed it more because Khârn is my favourite character, but I still see it all the time with Lucius, SW's (as a lot of people hate them), Cruze, even with the thousand sons and word bearers because they are 'nerdy' and 'zealots'

 

 

Again though, Khârn isn't a duelist. He's a butcher. Both come under "good at fighting", but Khârn isn't one who's awesome at fighting against a single highly-skilled opponent. He's never been held up as "this guy is one of the best fighters out of all the Legions, in fact Delvarus is explicitly stated to be outright better than Khârn in that regard. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's also clear in templar that even though Khârn is losing to sigismund, there's more to it than that. Both of them comment on how Khârn in battle is very different, and that he can't quite implement maneuvers "cold" like when he tried to steal sevatars headbutt.

 

It's also interesting to note, that in Black Legion, a thousand year old sigismund is said to basically never parry due to being so overwhelmingly skilled with his offense. When he starts to be pressed by abbadon and takes steps backwards, it's noted to be a significant swing in momentum. Sigismund parries and gives ground to Khârn, in his prime. Consider that before trying to say Khârn is being used as a foil for sigismund, the guy who's only real "loss" in a duel is against sevatar.

[b1soul]

"Again though, Khârn isn't a duelist. He's a butcher. Both come under "good at fighting", but Khârn isn't one who's awesome at fighting against a single highly-skilled opponent."

 

I don't even think it's even that simple. He just finds dueling in a controlled environment to be an utter waste of time. He fights to kill enemies on the battlefield.

 

When he goes all in against Erebus, who is a single highly skilled opponent, he utterly wrecks him, he moves so fast Erebus can't even follow his attacks.