Khârn duels

[Lord_Caerolion]

"Again though, Khârn isn't a duelist. He's a butcher. Both come under "good at fighting", but Khârn isn't one who's awesome at fighting against a single highly-skilled opponent."

 

I don't even think it's even that simple. He just finds dueling in a controlled environment to be an utter waste of time. He fights to kill enemies on the battlefield.

 

When he goes all in against Erebus, who is a single highly skilled opponent, he utterly wrecks him, he moves so fast Erebus can't even follow his attacks.

 

Which, from most other stuff we're shown, is an outlier. The argument could be made that he only cares about fighting when he's actually trying to kill. In any case, Khârn's never really been held up as an example of "one of the best fighters in the Astartes", not like Lucius/Sigismund.

 

EDIT: To clarify, I mean in duelling arenas/fighting pits, etc. On the open battlefield he very much has a reputation.

[bluntblade]

Regarding Khârn saying to Sigismund that he isn't holding back, Sigismund immediately calls bull:cuss on that. It's blatantly Khârn just being modest.

 

In fact "you're holding back" is followed with "you always do". I think Sigismund is in a position to know.

 

Argel Tal has also made the point to Delvarus, the undisputed pit champion, that Khârn's reputation is known across the Legions and has been largely won on the battlefield.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Lucius is definitely in Worf territory, tho Gino think there is a bit of an author’s guilty pleasure involved, since the guy’s such a twat that few ppl will cry over him getting diced up a bit early on.

 

In the Amit vs Khârn duel, it’s suggested that they fight on their own far away from others because they are the only two souls each other trusts to go all out with out actually killing each other. They are mirror images of each other in a lot of ways. It’s also suggested in that story that it’s not the first time and that it has gone either direction in the past. The context/theme of the story is also to show that Amit has finally learned at least part of the lesson Sanguinius was trying to teach him, and that is why he is able to defeat Khârn.

 

Yes, I am biased toward the BA, but that story does nothing but present Khârn as a competent, worthy opponent who anyone would have a hard time going against, holding back or not. The match between Lucius and Azkaellon, on the other hand...

 

I don’t disagree with the OP’s state,ent, but I do not entirely agree either. I think the issue is that we haven’t really seen enough to put things in perspective of what should be considered impressive.

Nah, that short story was literally the most biased thing I've read.  Far worse than the Sigusmund one was.  It has two of the blood angels go up against two of the best fighters for no reason what so ever other than the contrived 'lesson' which isn't a lesson at all.  Amit and Azkaellon fight with one another all the time and the logical thing to do would have them fight one another and work out their aggression towards one another but the author thinks duelling two random people is going to show them the error of there ways, I mean come on.  Azkaelon loses but he wins a Pyrrhic victory with Lucius to make him look good.  I may be wrong or biased with the Sigusmund one but the blood angel one was pure warfism, if it had some sort of logical story to it, other than two random duels both having to be awesome fighters somehow to learn not to fight with one another...  Also the whole 'you don't know what real rage is, even though Amit doesn't suffer from the black rage etc. was a bit too much.  Plus I don't have a problem with Khârn being beaten, even if he tries his best, like with Loken as that was well written, but also because Khârn doesn't try when he's having sparring duels even if I was biased you could excuse him losing because of that lack of trying and the fact that he's a totally different beast after the HH.  I just noticed it more because Khârn is my favourite character, but I still see it all the time with Lucius, SW's (as a lot of people hate them), Cruze, even with the thousand sons and word bearers because they are 'nerdy' and 'zealots'

 

 

Again though, Khârn isn't a duelist. He's a butcher. Both come under "good at fighting", but Khârn isn't one who's awesome at fighting against a single highly-skilled opponent. He's never been held up as "this guy is one of the best fighters out of all the Legions, in fact Delvarus is explicitly stated to be outright better than Khârn in that regard. 

 

Khârn is a duelist, when it counts especially after the HH, he fights duels in the pits with multiple people he was even the equal of Abaddon before the fight was broken up, he completely ran through Erebus who lasted a while against Lucius. Duelist only means one on one, I think you think only swordsmen are duelists.  I think its unfair to say he isn't a great duelist, I mean he defeats whole squads by himself and consistently does that through a battle while killing countless champions as well and like Angron goes and fights on his own, but that is post HH, but still.  I mean the only reason he isn't known as a duelist is because he never takes it seriously.  Delvaris was only the best in the pits.

[TorvaldTheMild]

"Again though, Khârn isn't a duelist. He's a butcher. Both come under "good at fighting", but Khârn isn't one who's awesome at fighting against a single highly-skilled opponent."

 

I don't even think it's even that simple. He just finds dueling in a controlled environment to be an utter waste of time. He fights to kill enemies on the battlefield.

 

When he goes all in against Erebus, who is a single highly skilled opponent, he utterly wrecks him, he moves so fast Erebus can't even follow his attacks.

Yeah so he is a duelist, he's just not a sparring duelist.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Regarding Khârn saying to Sigismund that he isn't holding back, Sigismund immediately calls bull:cuss on that. It's blatantly Khârn just being modest.

 

In fact "you're holding back" is followed with "you always do". I think Sigismund is in a position to know.

 

Argel Tal has also made the point to Delvarus, the undisputed pit champion, that Khârn's reputation is known across the Legions and has been largely won on the battlefield.

I think its better we agree to disagree, as we are just going round in circles, because Sigusmund may have called bull but Khârn clearly states that he wasn't holding back.

[bluntblade]

But Sigismund's judgement tallies with all the other text that has been written on Khârn's behaviour in the pits.

 

There's also the context of the fight and what the author is saying. Templar as a whole isn't about tugging Sigismund's tabard (thank goodness), it's about who he is. As such the fights aren't primarily to big him up, but to express something about who he is as a character. Ergo Khârn is there as a character foil and not a straw man. Just like Jubal, just like Alajos.

 

Going into meta territory, French and AD-B are friends as well as colleagues and are likely to take care so as to not contradict one another's work. I think that from this we can deduce that Sigismund's analysis is meant to be on the money in this scene.

[TorvaldTheMild]

But Sigismund's judgement tallies with all the other text that has been written on Khârn's behaviour in the pits.

 

There's also the context of the fight and what the author is saying. Templar as a whole isn't about tugging Sigismund's tabard (thank goodness), it's about who he is. As such the fights aren't primarily to big him up, but to express something about who he is as a character. Ergo Khârn is there as a character foil and not a straw man. Just like Jubal, just like Alajos.

 

Going into meta territory, French and AD-B are friends as well as colleagues and are likely to take care so as to not contradict one another's work. I think that from this we can deduce that Sigismund's analysis is meant to be on the money in this scene.

But he did contradict the work, you keep ignoring that Khârn says he didn't hold back, but you are still trying to argue around that.

[bluntblade]

Because a character isn't always telling the honest-to-goodness truth. There are any number of reasons why a character might do it, but I'm going with modesty here.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Because a character isn't always telling the honest-to-goodness truth. There are any number of reasons why a character might do it, but I'm going with modesty here.

But there is nothing in the text that even suggests he's lying, I mean why on earth would he say he was not holding back when he was, especially when he doesn't care about duels, calling them foolish.  I mean think about it, the writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back, I don't know how you can ignore this glaring inconsistency.  I mean by the very least you have to admit that it at least looks like warfism

[bluntblade]

I already said I think he's just being modest. Or perhaps he doesn't like to admit that he worries about the prospect of the Nails kicking in and him leaving a friend as a pile of offal like he does that poor Devourer.

 

Khârn isn't fighting like he does when it matters. Based on what we've seen of him fighting when it's a matter of life or death, the outcome would be way more doubtful.

 

Sigismund raises the comparison of what he has seen of Khârn on the battlefield.

 

Although we could try and do this the easy way - does anyone here have John French on Twitter?

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like the op is ignoring books where Khârn is stated to not take sparring seriously, except for the specific passages that he wants.

 

All of betrayer and how him and argel tal lost every pit fight? "Yea but he smashed erebus, who lasted long against lucius" . Sigismund, the undisputed master fighter says Khârn is holding back? "Yea but Khârn says he isn't and I ignored that the rest of the sentence is about how he's bad at sparring seriously" . The guy can't commit to sparring because it's not real, like abbadon.

 

What was the point of the thread again? That Khârn isn't as good as sevatar or something?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Khârn is a beast, just doesn't like dueling. Still perceived as a threat though in the dueling area. Hell rightly so.

 

But yes i get a sense of OP cherry picking here. No offence dude but i think your taking a singular sentence to seriously and deriving from it what you specifically want it to mean. Not what its meant to mean in a greater context.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I feel like the op is ignoring books where Khârn is stated to not take sparring seriously, except for the specific passages that he wants.

 

All of betrayer and how him and argel tal lost every pit fight? "Yea but he smashed erebus, who lasted long against lucius" . Sigismund, the undisputed master fighter says Khârn is holding back? "Yea but Khârn says he isn't and I ignored that the rest of the sentence is about how he's bad at sparring seriously" . The guy can't commit to sparring because it's not real, like abbadon.

 

What was the point of the thread again? That Khârn isn't as good as sevatar or something?

The fight with Erebus was sanguis extremis, it was a fight to the death, so no he doesn't choose to try when he wants to he only tries when its an actual fight.  There is nothing in the thread that justifies the inconsistencies so I don't know how it can be cherry picked, ignoring those inconsistencies seems more like cherry picking.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Khârn is a beast, just doesn't like dueling. Still perceived as a threat though in the dueling area. Hell rightly so.

 

But yes i get a sense of OP cherry picking here. No offence dude but i think your taking a singular sentence to seriously and deriving from it what you specifically want it to mean. Not what its meant to mean in a greater context.

No I thinks you's just think I'm being biased because you are ignoring the complete inconsistencies that I have mentioned.  Like I said, I'll admit the writer could have done it unconsciously but if you can't even admit that it does at least look like warfism then there isn't really any point continuing this.

[bluntblade]

Worfism doesn't exactly apply, any more than it would if Abaddon was in Khârn's place.

 

Not one of us was arguing that the Erebus fight was a regular pit duel. Everything about that scene says that it is about to go down:

- Lorgar setting up the scene and reminding us that we're cross about Argel Tal getting shanked

- Khârn going straight to confront Rrebus and calling Sanguis Extremis

- Gorechild being unveiled again and Khârn using it to shut Erebus up

- Everything about the fight

 

We all get that just fine.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Worfism doesn't exactly apply, any more than it would if Abaddon was in Khârn's place.

 

Not one of us was arguing that the Erebus fight was a regular pit duel. Everything about that scene says that it is about to go down:

- Lorgar setting up the scene and reminding us that we're cross about Argel Tal getting shanked

- Khârn going straight to confront Rrebus and calling Sanguis Extremis

- Gorechild being unveiled again and Khârn using it to shut Erebus up

- Everything about the fight

 

We all get that just fine.

I'm just using the phrase for ease.  The other person was arguing that.  But if you can admit that it even looks like biased writing I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[bluntblade]

I don't think it's biased writing. I think it's an author writing a scene with the constraint of a character being undefeated in the lore, and trying to find something interesting to say within it. It's not about who wins, but what it says about the two parties involved.

[SkimaskMohawk]

What inconsistencies? He's consistently portrayed to not being able to spar because he just doesn't care and doesn't try as a result.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

 

Khârn is a beast, just doesn't like dueling. Still perceived as a threat though in the dueling area. Hell rightly so.

But yes i get a sense of OP cherry picking here. No offence dude but i think your taking a singular sentence to seriously and deriving from it what you specifically want it to mean. Not what its meant to mean in a greater context.

 

No I thinks you's just think I'm being biased because you are ignoring the complete inconsistencies that I have mentioned.  Like I said, I'll admit the writer could have done it unconsciously but if you can't even admit that it does at least look like warfism then there isn't really any point continuing this.

Inconsistencies? Please do elaborate.

 

Agreed. I don't think you should continue this

[TorvaldTheMild]

What inconsistencies? He's consistently portrayed to not being able to spar because he just doesn't care and doesn't try as a result.

The writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back.  I mean that is an inconsistency that completely contradicts the lore, how can you keep ignoring that.

[Fire Golem]

 

What inconsistencies? He's consistently portrayed to not being able to spar because he just doesn't care and doesn't try as a result.

 

The writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back.  I mean that is an inconsistency that completely contradicts the lore, how can you keep ignoring that.

Not really sure what you’re saying here, but just because Khârn holds back in duels most of the time, and then doesn’t in the duel against Erebus (for the explicit reason that he wants to kill Erebus for something Erebus did) isn’t an inconsistency, it’s a different motivation in that specific fight.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

What inconsistencies? He's consistently portrayed to not being able to spar because he just doesn't care and doesn't try as a result.

The writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back.  I mean that is an inconsistency that completely contradicts the lore, how can you keep ignoring that.

Not really sure what you’re saying here, but just because Khârn holds back in duels most of the time, and then doesn’t in the duel against Erebus (for the explicit reason that he wants to kill Erebus for something Erebus did) isn’t an inconsistency, it’s a different motivation in that specific fight.

 

He doesn't hold back against Erebus because it was sanguis extremis which is a fight to the death, so he doesn't hold back.  In the lore he holds back and doesn't try in sparring duels because its not life or death.  That isn't the inconsistency I'm talking about, you are bringing up the Erebus thing, you have to read all the comments not just the ones replying to yours.  

[Fire Golem]

 

 

 

What inconsistencies? He's consistently portrayed to not being able to spar because he just doesn't care and doesn't try as a result.

 

The writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back.  I mean that is an inconsistency that completely contradicts the lore, how can you keep ignoring that.

Not really sure what you’re saying here, but just because Khârn holds back in duels most of the time, and then doesn’t in the duel against Erebus (for the explicit reason that he wants to kill Erebus for something Erebus did) isn’t an inconsistency, it’s a different motivation in that specific fight.

He doesn't hold back against Erebus because it was sanguis extremis which is a fight to the death, so he doesn't hold back.  In the lore he holds back and doesn't try in sparring duels because its not life or death.  That isn't the inconsistency I'm talking about, you are bringing up the Erebus thing, you have to read all the comments not just the ones replying to yours.

No offence, but it’s pretty hard to follow what the actual issue is.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

 

 

What inconsistencies? He's consistently portrayed to not being able to spar because he just doesn't care and doesn't try as a result.

The writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back.  I mean that is an inconsistency that completely contradicts the lore, how can you keep ignoring that.

Not really sure what you’re saying here, but just because Khârn holds back in duels most of the time, and then doesn’t in the duel against Erebus (for the explicit reason that he wants to kill Erebus for something Erebus did) isn’t an inconsistency, it’s a different motivation in that specific fight.

He doesn't hold back against Erebus because it was sanguis extremis which is a fight to the death, so he doesn't hold back.  In the lore he holds back and doesn't try in sparring duels because its not life or death.  That isn't the inconsistency I'm talking about, you are bringing up the Erebus thing, you have to read all the comments not just the ones replying to yours.

No offence, but it’s pretty hard to follow what the actual issue is.

 

That's because you aren't reading all the comments, as how is this hard to understand: The writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting Khârn and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back.  I mean that is an inconsistency that completely contradicts the lore.  I've repeated this multiple times but no one is reading all the comments.

[bluntblade]

 

What inconsistencies? He's consistently portrayed to not being able to spar because he just doesn't care and doesn't try as a result.

The writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back.  I mean that is an inconsistency that completely contradicts the lore, how can you keep ignoring that.

 

Are you referring to Khârn's headbutt move? Because that seems to be played as almost curiosity on Khârn's part to see if the same move will get Sigismund twice. It's not equivalent to Khârn going into all-out murderbeast mode.