TorvaldTheMild Posted September 16, 2019 Author Share Posted September 16, 2019 What inconsistencies? He's consistently portrayed to not being able to spar because he just doesn't care and doesn't try as a result. The writer makes Sigusmund hold back when fighting and makes him win against someone that always holds back and never tries but suddenly in this duel he doesn't hold back. I mean that is an inconsistency that completely contradicts the lore, how can you keep ignoring that. Are you referring to Khârn's headbutt move? Because that seems to be played as almost curiosity on Khârn's part to see if the same move will get Sigismund twice. It's not equivalent to Khârn going into all-out murderbeast mode. No I'm talking about the actual part where Kharns says 'I did not hold back'. I mean this is getting silly now. I'm out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Khârn says it, but the text seems to disagree. It's... not unknown for a character to not tell the truth even out of modesty, as I said earlier, or have their words contradicted by events. I know he's saying that he didn't hold back, but I don't buy it because I've seen scenes where he definitely, really didn't hold back. Sigismund has fought Khârn multiple times at this point - "You held back. You always do" - and seen him on the battlefield where Khârn the Bloody earns his name. His opinion is clearly valid. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 Khârn says he doesn't hold back, he's just not good at sparring for practice. Thats not an inconsistency, it's an explanation of betrayer. You literally stop reading before Khârn even stops talking in the scene. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 I would also add that a lot of people mistakenly think Sevatar won the duel via headbutt, but in reality, it reads more like he DQed himself Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 Well, he was bored after an unbelievable 20 hour duel with sigismund. And it's not so much that sevatar won with a dirty trick and more that sigismund...didn't actually win when that's his thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 I think the 20-hour figure is a bit silly, but yeah, he prevented Sig from claiming a proper victory. Also, shows how Sig is so good, he can easily match an opponent who has psychic precognition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 Yea sigismund is essentially ambushed on his command deck and completely surrounded. He takes wounds, which is completely within reason, but saying "he didn't do that well" is a little silly. Even being softened up and then saved, the boarding action still ended with him about to kill aximand, despite all of his wounds and battle damage. Only because Boreas sacrificed himself and Fafnir aided him. Another case of Loyalist leader being saved by subordinates agaisnt enemy special character Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 B1soul it just kind of shows how good both of them are. Sevatars thing isn't like sanahkt where it's a fully developed and controlled ability. Moonreaper, yea he totally got bailed out. Him surviving to that point was presented as impressive though and he still blunted the attack long enough for help to arrive. Not to mention that after all that he still crushed aximand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 And wounded, Sigismund does beast Aximand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 Sevatar's ability lets him know in advance what his opponent is going to do. It doesn't matter how consciously aware of the ability he is. Sigismund is just a guy who’s very good with a blade. No psychic shenanigans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5390940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 Sevatar's ability lets him know in advance what his opponent is going to do. It doesn't matter how consciously aware of the ability he is. Sigismund is just a guy who’s very good with a blade. No psychic shenanigans. Yeah Sevater's 1 second time skip is actually a pretty big advantage in combat, especially in Astartes on Astartes combat one second ahead is the difference between life and death. Duels where a good feint happens, a missed block or counter happens is what costs an Astartes their life in a duel. The Khârn duels actually to me cheapen Khârn himself than make the other character look good/deadly/ competent to me. If I was lead in HH BL I would forbid all the fluffed duels with Khârn for the purpose of signal boosting other characters entirely, its a cheap narrative element. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5391192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 sevetar still needs to be an absolute combat beast though for that advantage to even matter i mean, if you gave me a 1 second time skip and put me up against sigismund...i’m coming back a head shorter Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5391196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted September 17, 2019 Share Posted September 17, 2019 sevetar still needs to be an absolute combat beast though for that advantage to even matter i mean, if you gave me a 1 second time skip and put me up against sigismund...i’m coming back a head shorter I dunno, I think its still a big advantage regardless. It would bring an A tier melee guy to S tier IMO, so maybe it would make you even. If a suppressed psyker can do a 1 second time skip, then GK and Librarians would be the actual true melee monsters. Imagine Magnus perfecting his melee with a refined time skip, Russ would never have won their duel. I bet the Emperor and Horus were doing time skip melee, but it evened out so wasn't an advantage for either, so cancelled each other out. Its big power creep, glad its pretty rare as a result but its really cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5391201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Well first of all, I was wrong about the length of the duel. Apparently it was almost thirty hours long... And Idk, regardless of the particulars of his power, the fact that lucius fought sanahkt and managed to beat him consistently means that skill can overcome even a refined use of it. And sigismund, the most skilled, couldn't. That's why, imo it's impressive, because sevatar still needed to be very good in the first place. And to keep it vaguely on topic, Khârn would have gotten creamed by sev too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5391254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedor Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Did Lucius beat Sanakht more than once? I must be forgetting parts of Crimson King already, i just remember the short story before that between the two where Lucius is somehow on Sortiarius and Sanakht easily controls things until Lucius supresses his logical thinking and just goes feral rage mode which confuses Sanakht. It was sort of the opposite of skill being what got him the win. Incidentally that precog fight between Sang and Curze where they both know each others every move was a vile abomination from Haley. Please keep the precog old school when it was just unpredictable visions that were as much a bleak curse as anything else and not some combat super power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5391592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 Sevatar's precognition ability is never quantified. We just know everything slows down around him (heightened awareness)and he knows what his opponent is going to do (classic Jedi-style combat precog). He's already very good, but his psychic ability is what takes him to cream of the crop level. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5391640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 And wounded, Sigismund does beast Aximand. Only because Sigismund's own subordinates save his ass time and time again When Sigismund fought Abby, he didn't have anybody to save him that time It is the same with Guilliman vs Skarbrand, Calgar vs M'kar, Magnus vs Bjorn and Sicarius vs Kor Megron. It's like Loyalists suck at 1 vs 1 against Chaos Champions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 When Sigismund fought Abaddon, he was substantially older in body and entirely aware of his disadvantage. And yes, Sigismund is kept alive by Rann and Boreas, but the fact remains that when he finally gets close to the uninjured Aximand, he wrecks him. Sheesh, does anyone read more than three lines of a given scene any more? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 Yes, he was saved. But still just as tired and wounded because the battle didn't stop. He then crushed aximand at the end of the battle. It's like saying "aximand only could fight sigismund because he ambushed him with a strike team and let his guys wear him down" and "abbadon had to wait 1000 years to make sigismund old and also sent his guys to wear him down" . Why can't chaos champions fight 1v1s with a fresh opponent? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 this is a weird thread. i like it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 IIRC, power armoured "old-man" Sigismund is noted to be fighting at the same speed as termie armoured Abaddon and Abaddon while quite fast is not known to possess elite speed (like prime Sigismund, Jubal, Sev, Lucius). Abaddon noted as being slower than Loken, which should be a sign that Loken is really no joke despite his humility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 I'd say Abaddon's speed is exceptional, but we're dealing with narrow margins among the absolute best of the best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 In Solar War, he's described as fast for his kind (Astartes) but slower than the likes of Sig, Jubal, Sev, Lucius, and even that fool Loken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Yeah, and that's among the "great warriors" so I think it's a narrow distinction. It's like saying that Corswain isn't as strong as Abaddon, Khârn or whoever was finest of the Iron Hands, but his finesse put him in contention. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 I'm not sure if Loken is among the great warriors. He's pragmatic and effective enough though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358431-kh%C3%A2rn-duels/page/4/#findComment-5393838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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