Raven Guard Assault Capability vs others (IE White Scars)

[Prot]

I was going to put this in your main thread but I don't want to muddy it up with what is a personal question about what you guys think of the new Supplement. So with that said....

 

I'm trying to read between the lines for good assault (and secondarily character assassination) in these Supplements.

 

Would you guys say that for full out assault that Raven Guard or White Scars will be more effective at it? RG seem less obvious, but not necessarily 'weaker' at assault. 

 

In my meta facing shooting castles, and character bubbles, or even just flat out Flyer Eldar Airshow is feeling really... grindy right now for me. Although I have a massive Chaos Space Marine army (not- daemons-), it flat out does not work. It has moments, but is far too weak, and requires blobs of Plaguebearers to have a shot of surviving First Contact. (not something I want to ally with.)

 

"other" marines are going to be, or already are, proficient at medium range shooting, but relying on re-rolls and strats, which is fine. My Ultra's play that game plenty well, but I want to break out of that playstyle. 

 

So framing this around a fairly competitive environment,  is RG the kind of army that will be going toe-to-toe with the Tau's, Astra's, etc, etc? Or are they going to be just a sneaker 'mid range' firepower army -complimented- by specialty assault?

 

Would White Scars bring a full brunt of assault units to greater effect in such a meta?

 

What's your take on it?

[Dracos]

Experience tells me if you want a true assault army, you should be patient. I feel your going to find the style your looking for in a Black Templar or Blood Angel (maybe Wolf) supplement when their turns comes around for an update.

[Prot]

Experience tells me if you want a true assault army, you should be patient. I feel your going to find the style your looking for in a Black Templar or Blood Angel (maybe Wolf) supplement when their turns comes around for an update.

That’s a very good point. But the reason I pose the question between these two armies is because I have a good number of the models already and budget wise it would be easier. The Black Templars do fit the idea but two things: first I played them zealously for years. In fact that’s where I first started moderating on the BnC! The other thing is it’s quite possible that they will be very highly tuned for assault but be fairly rigid about it, even anti Psyker etc. Kind of mirroring the world eaters playstyle ( I know this is way off topic and purely speculative on my part!).

[Dracos]

Okay a more constructive post would start by asking what unite you have available (I should always ask this first. I don’t know why I forget). :) I also think it’s going to be influenced more by what we haven’t seen on the supplement than what has been sneak peeked.

 

I think the Raven Guard Panoply and the stratagems will make a combination of Snipers and Jump Pack style troops edge to the Raven Guard. Scout Bikes, Bikes, and well that’s about it. I don’t see much synergy with Intercessors and nothing overly special with jump pack troops IMO. I’m biased though as I’ve never found WS very interesting army. Love Genghis and Mongol history. Just not a fan of bikes visually.

[Prot]

That’s fair. I appreciate the honesty. Don’t take this the wrong way, but instead of focusing on what units I have ( because trust me, I have TONS of bikes) focus more on the question of flat out assault capabilities between these two.

 

I can tell you my meta is fairly hard. Eldar Airshow is big in comp play. Tau are prominent, GSC ( which throws a wrench into a lot of assault armies) Knights and not a lot of chaos ( I’m typically one of the few).

 

I understand the two armies probably do this very differently. It seems on the surface that the inherent abilities of RG are stronger, however RG seem to lack the Strats, and Relics that White Scars have. ?

 

IE: Locking a unit in CC on a 4+ is extremely powerful itself.

 

White Scars May have the ‘bike advantage ‘ but does that translate into a hard hitting assault?

 

RG appear better at moving infantry in, perhaps not deep striking, but using aggressive infantry? Are assault jump pack troops valid?

 

The sneaky stuff seems really well suited for shooty units to me. Eliminators, Aggressors, even Centurions!

[Dracos]

Without a full supplement it’s hard to feel like we would be giving honest feedback, but I feel your on the right track with that thought process. Admittedly making the charge is one hell of an importantly lynch pin in making this decision, but even with the little we’ve seen I have a strong feeling that for someone willing to use the layers RG bring to a game plan they’re going to me more muderous with the deployment and maneuver tricks their going to be capable of. They also are going to be superb against Knights and GSC comparatively. Tau always hate minuses to hit because it takes dedication to get their pluses and RG head hunting will make it even rougher if your looking to be durable enough to smash face T3. Also hoping we get an ability to bump from devestator to assault doctrine for those looking for this kind of approach but given our Super Doctrine is in the tactical I’m not betting credits on that one :)

 

 

Right now it’s just going with my gut but between the two yeah Raven Guard. :)

[defl0]

It's on youtube ;)

[zero88]

I'd say White Scars, they are faster into combat and have multiple ways of making sure charges make it in. For example a Terminator Librarian accompanying a squad of Hammernators can cast the power that cancels overwatch as well as +2 to charge rolls. At the same time a squad of Aggressors arriving from outflank can use the 1CP strat for 3D6 pick two on the charge.

[Finkmilkana]

I feel neither chapter on its own will be competetive as a full on meele army, they all seem to be more build around a combined mid range shooting with meele support approach.

 

Honestly, if you really want to go full meele with codex marines, the best will provably be a soup of RG (to infiltrate assault cents with the WL trait), UM (to get the most out of a unit of incursors) and WS successors (to get 1-2 unit’s out of drop pods/ some scout bikes into meele). That way, you can stack all the stratagems and get enough units into meele turn 1 to overwhelm most opponents. The super doctrines are all not that important for meele or, in the case of WS, just come online too late for a pure meele force.

[seriade]

That’s fair. I appreciate the honesty. Don’t take this the wrong way, but instead of focusing on what units I have ( because trust me, I have TONS of bikes) focus more on the question of flat out assault capabilities between these two.

 

I can tell you my meta is fairly hard. Eldar Airshow is big in comp play. Tau are prominent, GSC ( which throws a wrench into a lot of assault armies) Knights and not a lot of chaos ( I’m typically one of the few).

 

I understand the two armies probably do this very differently. It seems on the surface that the inherent abilities of RG are stronger, however RG seem to lack the Strats, and Relics that White Scars have. ?

 

IE: Locking a unit in CC on a 4+ is extremely powerful itself.

 

White Scars May have the ‘bike advantage ‘ but does that translate into a hard hitting assault?

 

RG appear better at moving infantry in, perhaps not deep striking, but using aggressive infantry? Are assault jump pack troops valid?

 

The sneaky stuff seems really well suited for shooty units to me. Eliminators, Aggressors, even Centurions!

Ok several things first the air force thing may work itself out on its own as there was a rumbling of a cap of 3 fliers supposedly coming with ca or in the near future.  The thing is bikes are a shooting unit not really assault (unless black knights).  The way a raven guard army will probably work after the codex and all the marines come out you will probably see a force that mainly deploys through infiltration and takes control of about 60% of the board before the start of the game then slowly falls back while being dicks about it with some of the mortal wound stratagems and the mines.  While doing this you will probably see a drop pod with a 5 man company vet squad with storm shields and a dev squad of something like grav drop in to support the guys in the midfield or possibly terminators now.  As for assault you would normally see one unit of dedicated assault in the form of vv or some form of smash captains to clean up what is being torn apart by the shooting.  

 

The thing raven guard do is we don't want to deploy on our side of the board we want to deploy stuff really close to you and pin you back while we just sit there and score while forcing the opponent to make bad choices to come out and dig us out.  If the enemy is willing to sit in the corner and camp well if your playing itc it can be a real quick game as you sit there and not push in and score for 3-4 turns while still putting a reasonable amount of fire into them.

 

Stuff your going to see from the ravenguard when the book comes out:

A phobos captain with the infiltrate warlord trait bringing a squad of aggressors or centurions into the midfield.

Smash captain groupings.

Possibly 1-2 librarians now all most likely with jump packs or phobos.

A heavy reliance on phobos troops and scouts.

3x3 eliminators probably 2 snipers 1 las fusils.

One squad of vetran instersessors with stalkers for the snipe stratagem

Any further intersessors will probably be in transports with auto bolt rifles.(note 10 should in theory average 15 wounds on a character knight in the tactical phase)

Company vet squads with storm shelds and storm bolters or combi plasma(alternative being sternguard). Most likely in a drop pod with some form of devastators.

Terminators or agressors or centurions to provide mid table volume of fire and be able to counter punch what comes at your lines.

Scout bikes or interceptors for roaming fire support.

As for heavy fire power a lot of that is personal choice but leading candidates are storm cannon leviathans as well as either veteran or mortis contemptors with quad lascannons

       c-beams if being spicy.

Some form of assault unit to clean things up armed as per personal choice.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

White scars, as mentioned are less about killing stuff in assault so much as fast shooting units that charge to kill off weakened units, then fall back and go at it again.

 

RG are going to give more flexibility, and fly units (VVs and JP characters) are well suited to killing fliers. RG will also put up more points faster than White Scars, but will be less durable over the long haul.

 

I think a strong White Scars army will be bikes and Impulsors with Intercessors. Lots of close range firefights. Bloody and bludgeoning.

 

I think a strong Raven Guard force will be a wealth of snipers (Eliminators, Sniper Scouts, and Stalker Intercessors) paired up with a handful of assault units. Precise and Surgical, like a scalpel.

[Dracos]

I like a lot of what seriade said. A lot. I just focus more on Primaris units and have to remember my bias when giving advice. Primaris don’t have same tools Firstborn do so have to use different methods to get same results in many cases.

 

That said, the Contemptor Mortis would be my heavy weapon of choice for old fashion hitting power ... but I have this love affair with the Xiphon :)

[Lucerne]

White scars, as mentioned are less about killing stuff in assault so much as fast shooting units that charge to kill off weakened units, then fall back and go at it again.

 

RG are going to give more flexibility, and fly units (VVs and JP characters) are well suited to killing fliers. RG will also put up more points faster than White Scars, but will be less durable over the long haul.

 

I think a strong White Scars army will be bikes and Impulsors with Intercessors. Lots of close range firefights. Bloody and bludgeoning.

 

I think a strong Raven Guard force will be a wealth of snipers (Eliminators, Sniper Scouts, and Stalker Intercessors) paired up with a handful of assault units. Precise and Surgical, like a scalpel.

What assault units were you thinking?

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

White scars, as mentioned are less about killing stuff in assault so much as fast shooting units that charge to kill off weakened units, then fall back and go at it again.

 

RG are going to give more flexibility, and fly units (VVs and JP characters) are well suited to killing fliers. RG will also put up more points faster than White Scars, but will be less durable over the long haul.

 

I think a strong White Scars army will be bikes and Impulsors with Intercessors. Lots of close range firefights. Bloody and bludgeoning.

 

I think a strong Raven Guard force will be a wealth of snipers (Eliminators, Sniper Scouts, and Stalker Intercessors) paired up with a handful of assault units. Precise and Surgical, like a scalpel.

What assault units were you thinking?

If you're taking Shrike and a jump pack equipped Chaplain then I would lean toward Vanguard Veterans, since we apparently have a Strategem that lets them advance and Charge.

 

We have multiple ways to get several units in striking range very quickly.

 

As much as I hate to say it, I'm leaning toward not making Shrike the Warlord.

[Nusquam]

With the trait to advance and charge in an aura and a strat to add +1 to a charge with rerolls I feel as though a jump chaplain with that trait and a ravens wing captain with the no overwatch trait serve better than shrike. All his benefits on killier platforms.

[SkimaskMohawk]

But at that point you're spending a few more than his 130 and how many command points to make a more kill set of characters that give his utility? 3-4 depending on if you give the chaplain the relic crozius.

 

I don't think shrike is a big game changer, but he's pretty cheap at his new point cost and comes with that all important chapter master aura. The large amount of attacks and array of charge bonuses are all gravy at that point imo.

[seriade]

Well if you know your going first and re positioning guys with the warlord trait nothing says i win against something like a knight or bunch of vehicles like 6 assault centurions walking up shooting them 72 times with storm bolters and then 12d6 in flamers for what used to be a screen then laying in with something like 25ish attacks.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Good lord I just had a whole post with math-hammer written up about Assault Cents v Aggressors, and my vacation WiFi just ate it, FML posting on mobile can be cancer.

 

Needless to say: if the goal is to use Master of Ambush to dump something in your opponents face t1, Assault Cents are the choice. 3 of them has more firepower than 3 Aggrrssors (78 v 76 shots), the Cents can move, and half their shots auto hit and all ignore cover, for 156 points. If you up the Aggressors to 4, they barely outshot the Cents, but have to plant their feet.

 

The real question is why not both? 12 aggressors, 3 assault cents and a jp happy is only 690 points. Sounds like a great starting point for a list. Even if you go t2, you can infiltrate the Cents up 4+d6, then move 4 and reach out with Bolters for another 36 shots (35" threat range) or advance again.

 

There's even an argument to play 6 assault Cents for 312 points and roll Transhuman Physiology on them each turn after shoving them down your opponents throat, freeing up your entire army to do what it wants...

[seriade]

I think your going to strugle to dedicate 600+ points to those 2 units.  A base army is already looking at being comprised of 2 captains(phobos, smash), a combo of 2 libys or chaplains.  A unit of stalker intersessors + 2-3 units of guys wiht the mines.  A full boat of eliminators, thunderfire cannon, etc.  Yea your going to have room for a hard hitting unit but your still going to need some range punch etc. and where that punch comes from.  It is a matter of do you want to rely on hellblasters or dev squads or are you going the contempter/xyphon route to provide firepower.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

In the 690 example its 4 units, chaplain, 2x6 aggressors, and 1x3 Cents.

 

The more I look at list options, the more I want to handle armor in CC instead of running ranged AT. I had considered a solo Leviathan just to abuse the new strategem effectively, but as a RG player finding ways to spend CP is a lot easier than generate them.

 

This is a list I have all the models for that I'm thinking of testing:

 

Battalion

2x Smash Captain (Imperium's Sword + Swift and Deadly)

Shrike

2x 5 Infiltrators (Comms)

8 Intercessors w/ Stalker Bolt Rifles

 

Spearhead

Phobos Captain

3x 3 Eliminators

 

Vanguard

Phobos lieutenant (Ex Tenebris, Master of Ambush)

3 Assault Cents (Hurricanes/Flamers)

2x 6 Boltstorm Aggressors

8 Vanguard Veterans (5x TH/SS, 3x CS/SS)

[sultansean]

Prot I feel like I am in similar position as you looking for a melee focused Marine army. In my thinking a competitive assault army requires a way to arrive from reserve with a 7" re-rollable charge (GSC, Orks, Deamons). As well as a way to cross the board quickly and make charges with the other half of your army.    

I think a combination of White Scars and Raven Guard might give you the best of both worlds. 

 

The most powerful Raven Guard abilities which let you reposition before first turn. only work if you get first turn, so I do not consider them reliable. That leaves you with shadow step and strike from the shadows to get a 7" charge. But this requires successfully manifesting a chaplain power and a psychic power.

 

White Scars on the other hand have more charge buffs, but less ability to deep strike. They outflank onto a board edge. But can also stack some things to move quickly and advance and charge helps them. The battle brothers podcast, went into depth about all the white scars stacking charge bonuses.

 

By running both WS and RG you can use the relics, warlord traits and psychic powers from two sources and double up on the best ones. Generally if you have a shooting element, probably will for troops, they will do well as RG making them more survivable.

 

I see our best assault units as RG Vanguard Vets, WS Assault Centurions, WS Bike Captains, Smash Captains, with aggressors being a decent utility option.

 

 

Another thing I just heard on the Best in Faction podcast was talking about Raptors from the FW Index, using Issodon, and then choosing your 2 chapter traits, but then making them RG successors to get access to the stratagems. Issodon has a +1 to charge aura, and can deep strike 3 units with him, not centurions, termies, Primaris. But I'm thinking a Librarian and or captain and Vanguard Vets would be nice. Hungry for Battle for +1, and then either Long Range Marksman for assault centurions or Master Artisans for free re-rolls.

I think we are just beginning to test the depths of the combinations that can be made between successors chapters, souping, and supplements. I'm feeling better about Raven Guard, once I've stopped thinking about using them as pure, and feeling that their special doctrine is only situational like Scars. But with their powers combined!     

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well if you use issodon, by definition you have to be a raven guard successor.

 

Another possible way to mix some elements is to play blood ravens, declare to be a raven guard successor and then use the white scar chapter tactic instead of relentless seekers (as per the white dwarf).

[Claws and Effect]

 

I think a combination of White Scars and Raven Guard might give you the best of both worlds.

 

But then you're giving up Surgical Strikes and Devastating Charge.

 

Not sure I'd be willing to give up Surgical Strikes to add White Scars.

 

I tested it in a game over the weekend (opponent agreed to let me use the rules Warhammer Community previewed for the game). Surgical Strikes made a noticeable difference turn 2 on.

[dode74]

Another possible way to mix some elements is to play blood ravens, declare to be a raven guard successor and then use the white scar chapter tactic instead of relentless seekers (as per the white dwarf).

Not sure you can do that.  This is in the WS (and similar in the UM) supplement(s):

 

 

 

If the successor Chapter you have chosen

is one established in the background of our

publications, its founding Chapter will often be

known (for example, the Storm Lords Chapter

is a known successor of the White Scars). If the

successor Chapter you have chosen does not

have a known founding Chapter but has the

Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic,

and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First

Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is

a successor of that First Founding Chapter.

Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that

best fits your successor Chapter’s character.

 

I understand this means that if you take Inheritors to get the WS chapter tactic then you are de facto a WS successor, meaning you can't be a RG successor.

[MeltaRange]

In the 690 example its 4 units, chaplain, 2x6 aggressors, and 1x3 Cents.

 

The more I look at list options, the more I want to handle armor in CC instead of running ranged AT. I had considered a solo Leviathan just to abuse the new strategem effectively, but as a RG player finding ways to spend CP is a lot easier than generate them.

 

This is a list I have all the models for that I'm thinking of testing:

 

Battalion

2x Smash Captain (Imperium's Sword + Swift and Deadly)

Shrike

2x 5 Infiltrators (Comms)

8 Intercessors w/ Stalker Bolt Rifles

 

Spearhead

Phobos Captain

3x 3 Eliminators

 

Vanguard

Phobos lieutenant (Ex Tenebris, Master of Ambush)

3 Assault Cents (Hurricanes/Flamers)

2x 6 Boltstorm Aggressors

8 Vanguard Veterans (5x TH/SS, 3x CS/SS)

 

I'm not going to sit here and say this army is bad, because I think it's decent/pretty good...but I think wanting to tie your AT to melee is not really a good idea.  The question I always ask people who want to charge from DS is 'What if he's running Repulsors? What if he's running Eliminators?  

 

I'm more fine with it with White Scars because they can pretty reliably get +3" to charges (and that's without the hard to do Chaplain buff) and can also use 3d6 choosing the highest for the roll.  Also, they are much better AT in melee, particularly on Turn 3+ and with proper support. (Khan, Banner of Eagle)

 

With any army that is melee focused, you need a reliable way to deliver them and honestly, RG just don't have that IMO.