Raven Guard Assault Capability vs others (IE White Scars)

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I fail to see how 24+2d6 move on t1 into a charge is unreliable. Given its significantly weaker if you dont get first turn, but you can attempt to use LOS terrain or screen with Infiltraitors.

 

With Master of Ambush the Cents dump 9" away from the enemy, move 4", then charge whatever is in front of them. You can even forgo the hurricane Bolters and advance alongside the Captains If you need to get deeper in.

[dode74]

With Master of Ambush the Cents dump 9" away from the enemy, move 4", then charge whatever is in front of them. You can even forgo the hurricane Bolters and advance alongside the Captains If you need to get deeper in.

It gets better than that, I think.  50% of the time you can also Infiltrate your Cents after MoA.  You have to roll off to see who determines order of operations since you are operating outside a turn, but if you win you can MoA then Infiltrate.  That puts the Cents 4+d6" closer at the start of turn 1.

 

The best thing is that you get to MoA and Infiltrate after everyone has deployed (at the start of the battle but before the first turn begins), meaning you can choose whether or not it's worth spending the CP.  The only (I think) thing you have to do during deployment is SFTS.

[Dracos]

I think the point of getting the first then in an important item we will need to address in the building portion of our armies. Keeping the drops as few as possible while still having enough elements to complete the missions shouldn’t be easily brushed aside.

 

It will of course be highly dependent on the meta you play in. For purposes of a discussion like this I think it’s best to put individual metas aside so as to be as helpful to as many as possible and look at tournament numbers and what seems “average” for top players ... if we are serious about talking about a competitive build. Otherwise it turns into an opinion based discussion that doesn’t really help anyone.

 

It seems GW has us constantly struggling with the nature of Marines and the rules that work for us. MSU is effective but creates many drops. We are seeing rules that are encouraging melee more but it’s still very much a shooters game.

 

We can want to be an assault army and that’s fine but we won’t be optimized. We can sit back and shoot from the shadows but then we fall into the fate of all castles and get whittled by a smart opponents use or either superior melee or superior shooting.

 

 

 

It’s just my opinion .... but I think it’s abiut at the point we might want to start a few tactical threads in the forum focusing on the different phases of the game with less regard to unit choice but discuss what combination of tools the supplement gives us to maximize our ability in each phase .... then start applying that to specific units. I won’t post one myself until I get a good look at the book but will definitely want to share my thoughts at that time.

[seriade]

I dont think its that extreme if you look at our book we want to lean on scouts and phobos units.  We are incentivised due to synergy to take those things.  We then need to cover the rest of the issues we face.  The first part will be once we have to codex finding the shortfalls and the stuff that needs to cover it.  We want a decent amount of infantry this means average/averge to high drop count compared to something like iron hands that want almost no infantry whatsoever. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Another possible way to mix some elements is to play blood ravens, declare to be a raven guard successor and then use the white scar chapter tactic instead of relentless seekers (as per the white dwarf).

Not sure you can do that. This is in the WS (and similar in the UM) supplement(s):

If the successor Chapter you have chosen

is one established in the background of our

publications, its founding Chapter will often be

known (for example, the Storm Lords Chapter

is a known successor of the White Scars). If the

successor Chapter you have chosen does not

have a known founding Chapter but has the

Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic,

and you selected the Chapter Tactic of a First

Founding Chapter, your chosen Chapter is

a successor of that First Founding Chapter.

Otherwise, choose a founding Chapter that

best fits your successor Chapter’s character.

I understand this means that if you take Inheritors to get the WS chapter tactic then you are de facto a WS successor, meaning you can't be a RG successor.

You don't use Inheritors of the primarch. You use the rules presented in their white dwarf to take any chapter tactic in the codex. You can take crimson fists or black templars if you wanted to.

[dode74]

Ah, that makes sense now.  Thanks.

 

Thinking a bit more about this...

 

The Blood Ravens CT says you choose a CT "as described in *Codex: Space Marines*".  Codex: Space Marines says "If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, you must instead create a Successor Chapter Tactic for them, as described on page 176.".  So I don't think you can do that - I think Blood Ravens *have to* choose a successor tactic, which *can be* Inheritors, but that locks you into a FF chapter.

[MeltaRange]

I fail to see how 24+2d6 move on t1 into a charge is unreliable. Given its significantly weaker if you dont get first turn, but you can attempt to use LOS terrain or screen with Infiltraitors.

 

With Master of Ambush the Cents dump 9" away from the enemy, move 4", then charge whatever is in front of them. You can even forgo the hurricane Bolters and advance alongside the Captains If you need to get deeper in.

 

Well, I was sort of assuming the plan was that your assault units would be charging out of deep strike.  When you talk about 24" of movement turn 1 are you talking about the Vanguard Vets/Smash Captains advancing up the board and also using Infiltrators?  So my point was pretty much that I think a RG army that's reliant on charging out of DS for it's anti-tank is not a great proposition.  

 

If there's something I'm missing, I apologize.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ah, that makes sense now. Thanks.

 

Thinking a bit more about this...

 

The Blood Ravens CT says you choose a CT "as described in *Codex: Space Marines*". Codex: Space Marines says "If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, you must instead create a Successor Chapter Tactic for them, as described on page 176.". So I don't think you can do that - I think Blood Ravens *have to* choose a successor tactic, which *can be* Inheritors, but that locks you into a FF chapter.

That's wholly up to interpretation on what's being described; the selection process or the chapter tactics that can be selected. Its a bit of a run-on sentence, but the "as described" part comes after it tells you to select the chapter tactic you feel is best suited. To me, it's saying you pick from the list of chapter tactics is codex space marines instead of all chapter tactics like BA or SW.

 

If the intent was to allow any pick of successor tactics or relentless seekers, then it would have had the "as described" after the selection process and would have referenced Successor Tactics in some way, seeing as their Index is wholly written with the new codex in mind.

[dode74]

Well I disagree with that interpretation.  It tells you to pick a chapter tactic "as described", and there is a description of how to pick a chapter tactic in the Chapter Tactics section of Codex SM.  It doesn't say "pick from a list" like you did with the previous Codex, it says "as described" in the Codex, and the way the Codex describes how to do it as changed.  It also think it's an assumption that they would hint at the existence of successor tactics in a WD index released some time before they were ready to reference them.

 

Content to agree to disagree on this one as we're well off topic, but I think you are misinterpreting the rules.  It'll be interesting to see if that gets tested at any tournament or clarified in an FAQ (hah!).

[sultansean]

Well I disagree with that interpretation.  It tells you to pick a chapter tactic "as described", and there is a description of how to pick a chapter tactic in the Chapter Tactics section of Codex SM.  It doesn't say "pick from a list" like you did with the previous Codex, it says "as described" in the Codex, and the way the Codex describes how to do it as changed.  It also think it's an assumption that they would hint at the existence of successor tactics in a WD index released some time before they were ready to reference them.

 

Content to agree to disagree on this one as we're well off topic, but I think you are misinterpreting the rules.  It'll be interesting to see if that gets tested at any tournament or clarified in an FAQ (hah!).

Weighting in on this debate. 

 

 

Rulebook Pg 176 

 

If you are not one of the first founding or named chapters on Pf 175 then you are a successor chapter on PG 176 and choose your chapter tactics from the list.  You could choose "inheritors of the primarch" or you can choose any of the other 2.

 

In supplement White Scars Pg 56 (I assume the same for RG) it says if you are a successor chapter known in the fluff, then you are successor of your founding chapter and can access their strats, relics, psychic tree and WL traits. You can still choose a successor chapter tactic on Pg 176 you just cannot chose to use inheritors of the primarch and choose a different first founding chapter.

 

 

So I think it is pretty clear that I could choose Raptors a known RG, but not a chapter on pg 175, so I have to choose my successor chapter tactic. I do not choose inheritors of the prim arch but choose Hungry for battle and long range marksman. I am a known RG successor so I gain access to the stratagems, relics, etc... As Raptors I could not choose to be a White Scars successor (and access their relics), or choose the inheritors of the primarch successor trait and choose anything other than RG.

 

 

All of this to say that I now think Raptors have one of the most powerful combos in the game.

 

2 units of 6 assault centurions and Isodon. Choose Hungry for battle and long range marksman, Use SFTS to deep strike the centurions. Have each unit shoot 11" 12D6 flamers Ap-1 ignores cover and 27" 72 bolter shots Ap -1 ignores cover.  With a chapter master re-roll from Isodon who also has a +1 to charge aura. And then make 7" charges to bring 29 S10 Ap-4 D3 attacks. You might as well bring a smash captain or librarian along to deny overwatch. 

 

I think the straight deep strike ability offers more utility for the assault centurions bomb, than white scars do, but white scars can have more reliable charges. At this point I don't think you need to mix White scars in, and then you can keep surgical strike. So now you are hitting and wounding knights on 2s which isn't necessary but still nice, now you can reliably kill 2 with one 312 point unit. Isodon is 195, so 819 points total, add a company champion for 47 points more and you have a nice little vanguard detachment that will handle most armies on its own, without the other 1000 points you have.    

 

Are assault centurions broken? Yes, will I actually make this army? No,

 

Those models are ugly and GW is going to have to FAQ them if not soon, then after they win LVO.        

[seriade]

i dont think raveguard is at the top of the worries for winning the lvo.  The issue supposidly is the fists and fishing for mortals.

[sultansean]

i dont think raveguard is at the top of the worries for winning the lvo.  The issue supposidly is the fists and fishing for mortals.

 

Yeah standard Raven Guard tactic. If you saw them coming they would not be doing their job....

 

Also it's Raptors not Raven Guard. :)  

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea sultansean, not quite what we were arguing about lol.

 

In terms of closing in melee, raven guard seem to be able to do it better turn 1 while white scars do it better turn 2. At least in terms of stratagems/deployment tricks; scars can just take fast things and advance+charge in turn 1 anyways. The hungry for battle trait is a must if you dont want to go pure scar trait+doctrine, and you can do some nasty things with whirlwind of rage incursors and gene-wrought might.

[Bluflash]

RG is better in deployment, WS is better in movement.

If RG deploy smart they can start with a ton of board control, and if they go first they can get off a very powerful alpha strike.

But if we go second, deploy poorly, or are facing very fast opposition they can likely out maneuver our strikes.

 

I'm actually seeing a lot of rock-paper-scissors going on with the different space marine chapter splats. RG can kill characters against the linchpin deathstars, WS can out move and aggress static gunlines, IF (accoring to leaks) will wreck vehicle heavy armies, UM are a jack of all trades with solid tactical maneuverability.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

 

I fail to see how 24+2d6 move on t1 into a charge is unreliable. Given its significantly weaker if you dont get first turn, but you can attempt to use LOS terrain or screen with Infiltraitors.

 

With Master of Ambush the Cents dump 9" away from the enemy, move 4", then charge whatever is in front of them. You can even forgo the hurricane Bolters and advance alongside the Captains If you need to get deeper in.

Well, I was sort of assuming the plan was that your assault units would be charging out of deep strike. When you talk about 24" of movement turn 1 are you talking about the Vanguard Vets/Smash Captains advancing up the board and also using Infiltrators? So my point was pretty much that I think a RG army that's reliant on charging out of DS for it's anti-tank is not a great proposition.

 

If there's something I'm missing, I apologize.

No need to apologize friend, given the codex gives us a bazillion options to get across the board, the failing is probably mine for posting an outline of how I envisioned the deployment phase to work out.

 

If you have first turn, I can see using Infiltrators on the VVs, Smash Caps, and Aggressors (potentially), including advancing all. This should put Aggressors in range to double tap screens, giving us 144 + 24d6 shots, or ~228 bolt rounds downfield. Ideally I would put the Phobos Captain midfield, and use Master of Ambush to drop the LT alongside the Phobos captain to be the "rally point" my Aggressors are moving towards. Shrike would sit parked with the Aggressors giving full re-rolls alongside the Phobos LT. Cents drop front and center alongside the melee contingent, and between the 228 Aggressor shots and the 57 shots from the Cents should leave a big smoking hole in the enemy center for your VVs, Captains, and Cents to drive a blade right into the enemy's juicy stuff.

 

If you dont get first turn, you can potentially save some CP (if the enemy is coming at you, Aggressors may not need to Infltrate), but the melee contingent still moves up, just uses cover/LOS blocking. The characters can hide inside the VVs, and you can pop See But Remain Unseen, making them 2+/3++ and -2 to hit. Then your opponent can pour fire into the 2 big Aggressor blobs or your melee contingent, both of which suck for targeting options.

 

If the opponents alpha is very strong, you can put both Aggressor units in SFTS, and Shrike in deep strike reserve, to prevent the opponent from blowing them off the table.

 

It's worth noting that if you wanted to charge from deepstrike, we can do it quite well with this book, just not RG, but Raptors.

 

Lias Issodon: +1 to charge/advance/move

 

Strike from the Skies: +1 to charge (JP)

 

Hungry for Battle (Successor trait): +1 to Charge/Advance

 

Master of the Vanguard: +1 to charge/advance/move to Phobos units.

 

So we can give +3 to charge to Jump Infantry OR Phobos boys. Not too shabby. Never mind the raw mobility of moving troops around with the above.

 

Lias with a Master of the Vanguard character seems like a lot of fun to play a full primaris infantry list that just drowns the board in bodies and moves like Eldar on foot, coupled with max objective scoring.