Dealing with new Space Marines

[STTAB]

With the new SM codex and supplements looking super strong, are you guys making any changes to deal with marines and marine vehicles since I’m sure there will be a lot more marines on the table.

 

As well as the Primaris Statline, T4, 2W, 3+, you’ve got Gravis Armour day on T5, 3W and I think you are going to be seeing a lot of aggressors on the table.

 

I’ve always brought a lot of plasma, how are you going to win against marines?

[GuardDaddy]

I'm having a ponder - just to add that agree they really are strong. 

 

reflecting:

Indirect fire for us remains good.

The things that worry me are less the increase in damage and more the increase in resilience.

[STTAB]

It does look overwhelming at first but try and put some mono SM lists together in BattleScribe. They are still expensive and it’s difficult to get a lot of command points with those expensive HQs and using all the awesome pregame stratagems.

 

With all the SM options for infiltrating units, indirect fire is looking more valuable to clear those mid table objectives.

 

Maybe taking the Callidus is worth it as a pokeball assassin to put the squeeze on their command points... although it’s very hard to not take the Vindicare if you are only doing 1.

 

Astropaths could be very important to deny cover, especially against Raven Guard.

 

Iron hands look stupid strong on offence and defence but don’t have any way of falling back and shooting. You could kill a marine screen with ranged firepower. With a Taurox you could advance the Taurox with implacable determination For a 20” move, disembark within 3” (vigilus, emperors blade) and charge 2d6 (26” to 36” threat range T1) and touch tanks, dreads and expensive dudes to stop them shooting. Bonus if you also have a Valkyrie that drops another squad and 2 Astropaths outwith 9” and consolidates with the squad that disembarked the Taurox. Extra bonus points for using the strat to advance and charge a vehichle for the 70 point Taurox to get into combat and charge in with the valk too (hover mode, max move 20”)

 

I’m running a Vostroyan Battalion with 2 tank commander, one with the relic battle cannon for the 3 damage since you have all those 3w aggressors and inceptors. One with plasma cannon and sponsons, which will make short work of Primaris. I’m also running the tempestus drop force battalion with 2 valks filled with plasma scions, Yarrick and astropaths.

 

Quality plasma does just make Primaris disappear.

[GuardDaddy]

yes tagging iron hands viable - though they can boost overwatch considerably. hmmmm - the Emperors Wrath artillery company 1CP strat to halve moment and cancel overwatch will be very valuable in that regard.

 

Plasma as you note remains good anti-marine especially. And yeah - they are still expensive.

 

Iron hands are going to castle - so board control approach might be viable if you can have enough stuff to keep claiming objectives, and could def go for movement/control based secondaries in ITC if doing so. We'll continue to give up kill more every turn!

[MARK0SIAN]

Remember, with the exception of Gravis armour, marines didn’t get any harder to kill, they just got deadlier. What killed them before will still kill them now.

 

I think the bigger change for guard (rather than dramatically altering lists) is target priority. Previously a lot of SM troops could either be safely ignored or were way down the target priority list.

 

Now that they’re a lot more deadly, those troops need to be killed quickly. Generally, SM will get more utility from the tactical doctrine which can’t really be activated until turn two so if Guard can focus down a lot of the troops in turn one then they’ll benefit more than leaving it till later turns.

[duz_]

I think indirect and long range firepower will become even more important know vs Marines

 

We enjoyed not having ap5 in the game for a while now but against Marines expect to be taking 6+ saves from turn 2 against bolters (with some exceptions)

So more screens or more vehicles

 

More importantly staying out of range of Elimators will be key to keeping commanders alive

 

Perhaps well see command chimeras coming into vogue

[Kain Mor]

Against Raven Guard you’re likely to loose your tank commanders by the end of turn 2, as well as all your order giving units.

 

Against anything your tanks are going to be saving on 6+ to 8+, and it’s unlikely any of your guardsmen will get a save for most of the game.

[WarriorFish]

Marines are indeed much improved, but as noted this is chiefly on the offence. So for most Guard armies I don't think that much is going to change. Some chapters will be able to close better than before, and some will be better are slugging it out at range but ultimately none of this changes how Guard will work, as this is always to Guard's own strengths best

 

Make sure you have the numbers to endure, and the weapons to throw back but also learn the Stratagems - Marines finally have some good ones Numbers are already king in 8th, Guard might just need to play this a bit more. Perhaps an extra Techmarine to help keep tanks running longer against the opening game heavy fire power will be worth considering, depending on the flavour of Marines you're up against.

 

My IH Marines certainly play a lot better now, and can throw out some mean shooting. The supplements are going to change the field a lot more it seems, so until these are all out a good Guard commander will need to keep a close eye on what's coming...

[Exilyth]

"From this day on, basilisks are frontline tanks. Charge!" - attributed to Comissar Daniel Sterne.

 

 

Sound tactical advice aside, space marines are still MEQs, just with more rules on top:

• Ultramarines are impossible to tarpit in meelee with e.g. ogryns or sentinels
• Imperial Fists ignore cover, so make the most out of LOS blocking terrain (& maybe indirect fire)
• White Scars are fast, so proper screening is needed
• Raven Guard will kill characters, so use redundancy or command chimeras (& screen vs shrike)
• Iron hands are more resilient & most likely vehicle heavy, so bring more AT (vanquishers are still suboptimal unfortunably)
• Salamanders forgot what they do but they're not the strongest chapter atm
• Black Templars resist mortal wounds so kill them with normal damage

The rules which will affect guard most are deployment shenanigans (allow units to reach your screen faster), movement shenanigans (same reason), character sniping (disables order givers, buff providers), fight twice strats (mulches screens faster).

 

That aside, I'd expect a slight move towards more infantry and long range and/or indirect firepower to stop marines before they reach our lines.

Also more D2 weaponry vs primaris.

 

 

edit: Invictor Warsuit w/the flamer will hurt.

[Kain Mor]

I don’t think you can really comment on the effectiveness of Fists, Salamanders, and Templars at this point. The real strengths of the chapters that have come out so far isn’t really in their chapter tactics, it’s how horrific the combos between their tactics, the doctrines, and the special rules in the supplements can be.

 

We’ll see in a month or so when stuff has settled more what the truly threatening chapters are.

[GuardDaddy]

In my 'happy place' I remind myself that part of the new supplements is pushing players to monofaction. I wonder if this is how GW is attacking soup issue. What goodies might mono guard get....

[HallofStovokor]

In my 'happy place' I remind myself that part of the new supplements is pushing players to monofaction. I wonder if this is how GW is attacking soup issue. What goodies might mono guard get....

I think that we might get demolisher cannons that are Heavy D6 because Marines did. Other than that, probably nothing.

[NatBrannigan]

Love the push towards Mono armies. You can still easily take soup but to pay for the flexibility you lose some powerful rules. Excellent stuff. A nice fun boost to Mono Guard would be nice, but I'll not complain if it doesn't come. I could see it going the other direction actually and the rule being that you lose orders if you take allies...

 

The new marine dex is superb really. It's not a hideous mess to play against (Eldar) but it does feel like you're up against humanities finest. It's worth remembering that if you target the Heavy Weapons first, because they start as the most threatening, your opponent will just switch to Tactical and then his troops are very powerful. I played a couple of games against Crimson Fists and I'll be taking out those troops first for sure. Guardsmen squads just disappear when they're in range, and I know Guard can bring the numbers but my 6 Infantry Squads were gone by turn 2.

 

Plasma and Autocannons are as good as they ever were, Scions are still excellent for some reliable Plasma / volley guns. My Veterans did great work but for whatever reason my opponent didn't target them first, so they had a couple of turns of shooting, which has never happened before!

 

No Eliminators but I'm scared of those... Might be time to give my Company Commander the Mordian relic for once, try and keep him alive! Yarrick still tough as old boots (steel toed boots no less!) but I'm looking at adding some Chimeras anyway.

 

Not sure about anyone else, but I'm enjoying slowly moving back down the power scale myself. Never sat well with me having one of the more powerful codicies.

[Halfpint100]

Several points me thinks:

 

Now positioning is even more important for our characters and screens to keep the things we want alive alive. 

 

We used to be able to take anything and still be viable, fluff could be important. However to have the best chance against the stronger marines; lists need to be optimized. We need screens, we need redundancy and most importantly faith in the dice gods(or the emperor, take you pick) 

[sairence]

Agree that it'll come down to positioning and target priority.

 

Our important stuff will need to be hidden, be that behind terrain or other units. Tallarn Tank Commanders might be useful for this, or a lesser focus on sponsons and more on turret guns with no penalty for moving. For anyone other than Tallarn, it'll be important to kill the threatening though, or they're out in the open.

 

Other than that...not sure much will change in how we can approach the game. Our star units will still be good, we just have to be that bit better at everything we do. :D

 

I do hope GW does these Codex-updates for everyone, that it's a proper wave 2. Encouraging mono-Codex armies is good and there's a lot of things in the Guard codex that could do with an overhaul. (Conscripts/Commissars, Exterminators/Vanquishers just to name a few)

[WarriorFish]

I consider this the start of the next wave of codices, yes - it makes sense in that all standard GW armies have got an updated book (Sisters long being a unique exception... hopefully this changes once the new army is released!) and C:SM is all but guaranteed to be first out the door. It's very encouraging as for a while GW has been failing miserably at getting Marines right, so it bodes well for other armies in the same boat - this includes Guard, as GW have long struggled here too.

 

Perhaps the real question is if the infamous codex creep continues and we're back where we started again, but for now Marines getting a shot in the arm is a good start. Hopefully we can see this extend to other armies as it's not just decent rules that's good to have, but the flavour in playing your army. I'd certainly like to see a bit more flavour for Guard, not just in seeing some lacking units given boosts and purpose.

 

Guard are fortunate in that these units aren't necessary to form decent lists, as for as much as we'd love a good Vanquisher we have plenty of other AT to fill the gap. For example rolling out a Baneblade is still going to make new Marines sweat, same as unleashing a horde of Leman Russ tanks When in doubt; get more guns :lol:

[STTAB]

Anyone considering an Ogryn bodyguard?

 

With the updated Vindicare I always started with one in the list but it always ended up getting trimmed.

 

Fun fact, if you play scion drop force, an Ogryn bodyguard will fit in a Valkyrie with a 5 man Scion squad and a 4 man command squad (Ogryns take 3 seats)

 

I suppose the guard answer is to just take more company commanders and platoon commanders but if you are investing in an Yarrick or Straken it might be worthwhile.

[duz_]

Body guards aren't a bad idea given eliminator snipers don't need LoS

[librisrouge]

Body guards aren't a bad idea given eliminator snipers don't need LoS

Along similar lines, I'm thinking about command squads. While they're easier to take out, if kept cheap they still provide bodyguards.

[HallofStovokor]

 

 

Body guards aren't a bad idea given eliminator snipers don't need LoS

Along similar lines, I'm thinking about command squads. While they're easier to take out, if kept cheap they still provide bodyguards.

 

No they don't.

[sairence]

 

 

Body guards aren't a bad idea given eliminator snipers don't need LoS

Along similar lines, I'm thinking about command squads. While they're easier to take out, if kept cheap they still provide bodyguards.

They don't have a rule like that. Personally, I think they should. It would give them more or a role.

[librisrouge]

 

 

Body guards aren't a bad idea given eliminator snipers don't need LoS

Along similar lines, I'm thinking about command squads. While they're easier to take out, if kept cheap they still provide bodyguards.

They don't have a rule like that. Personally, I think they should. It would give them more or a role.

 

Geez, I could have sworn they did. Welp, one more reason why I don't field them, I suppose.

[Shamansky]

'Make Chimeras great again' Guardsmen chanted
'As you wish' said GW and created Eliminators 

[STTAB]

I ran the emperors blade assault company at a doubles tournament, it’s got a lot of play with Catachans.

 

With a Valk and chimera combo I was getting first turn charges with a 20 man guard blob by advancing the chimera, using the strat to disembark, another squad grav chutes (outwith 9”) from the valk, combine squads, nightshroud, psychic barrier. If they don’t make the charge you use take cover next turn. Won us a few games as they’d either get in and touch stuff or 80 points of models would absorb a ton of firepower at 20 wounds, -1 to hit, 3+ save. If they think morale will finish the squad, state you will use that 2cp to auto pass morale and do it if it’s going to make the difference for killone/kill more.

 

The chimera disembark after moving strat would also be good to clear out infiltrators as well as the protected orders. If they want to put firepower to take out a chimera to get at your sources of order then it’s firepower that’s not going into you leman Russs or artillery.

 

It’s a hard choice between a chimera with no upgrades as just a delivery system or to go double flamer and track guards for one that will never degrade.

[Dark Legionnare]

'Make Chimeras great again' Guardsmen chanted

'As you wish' said GW and created Eliminators 

They did fiendish things to my Krieg officers this last weekend.

 

The memento mori's I took because I "had some points to burn" ended up being the only reason the two marshals survived long enough to get into LOS blocking terrain to only be attacked by the executioner rounds and then slink out of the 36" death range.

 

They are FIERCELY good at taking out the command elements of anything under MEQ, and even pretty good at taking out MEQ too.

 

The earthshaker carriages eventually took them off the board, but almost losing half your command givers by turn 2 put a big hurry in my step!