Pure Deathwing - How are we doing?

[m_r_parker]

I’ve been getting the urge recently to re-do my old Deathwing force from way back, as in back in 4th Edition. It was a simple 1500 list comprising of: Belial, 2 squads of 5 Terminators, 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts and 2 Land Raiders. It wasn’t the most successful list, but it was fun to play.

 

I want to do something similar again, keeping it purely within the 1st Company and leaving all the Primaris schenanigans to one side. But with the changes to 8th Edition mechanics, and more recently with the updated Space Marine rules and wargear, I was wondering how Pure Deathwing fares? I see a lot of Greenwing or combined Greenwing / Ravenwing in the Army List subforum, so I’m guessing we’re either not popular or competitive (or both!).

 

So I’m looking to the forum to answer some questions I had, whilst I peruse our codex for some inspiration; how are peoples experiences with the first company in 8th?

 

Do we have issues with CP generation and not being able to leverage multiple Strategems in games?

 

How are Land Raiders faring so far, and are Stormravens a solid alternative?

 

Is Deep Striking still a viable deployment strategy, or are transports still useful?

 

Has the basic Storm Bolter / Power Fist Terminator been improved enough now that they’re viable over other weapon combinations?

 

Is there still a place for the Venerable Dreadnought, or has everyone moved over to Relic Contemptors and Leviathans at this point?

 

Thanks to everyone in advance for chipping in any advice or experience that they have to share!

[UtariOnzo]

The biggest issue is mobility, or lack there of, and 2+/5++ not really cutting it as a trade off in the age of AP being a roll modifier. Knights are more useful with their 3++ but if you’re deep striking them, it’s a challenge to ensure they can make their charges. Deathwing Assault on shooty termies can be good at chaff clearing, but there are cheaper and/or more flexible options out there for this.

 

Venerable dreads are fine, it’s not that they suck but rather that Leviathans and Contemptors are just a little better at the same role in a lot of people’s minds.

 

Land Raiders and Stormravens are fine, but the points investment means you’re kind of putting all your eggs into the Terminator basket, which might leave you lacking on objective capturing units elsewhere in your list.

 

CP generation is also an issue, pure Ravenwing builds compensate for this with more mobility/flexible choices, and Greenwing/Ravenwing really fix the issue with battalion and outrider set ups.

 

Deathwing isn’t strictly competitive, especially pure Deathwing, but there are options available to still play them. If you’re meta isn’t full of serious competition style gamers, you could still have fun, but don’t expect to win many tournaments. Just moderate your expectations and play what you like on that basis!

[Angel of Solitude]

My experience of playing Deathwing is that they are just too expensive - both points and CP - and not reliable enough. A few examples:

1. At one time, I was trying a 10-man squad of Tartaros. Using DWA, you can land 64 combi-bolter shots, 16 Autocannon shots and 4D6 Grenade Harness shots. That there is 367 points, plus 3CP for the stratagem. Oh, and you may want to think about either a Master or Lt to improve the shooting effectiveness.
2. Another favourite is Deathwing Knights. Amazing damage output...if you can get them into combat. I've often run them with a jump pack interrogator chaplain with re-roll failed charges warlord trait, but more often than not they fail their charge. And with no shooting output, they're then stuck.
3. Instead of teleporting you can instead try Land Raider or Stormraven. Land Raiders just get tagged too easily and have a poor range, while Stormravens are likely to get hit before you can deploy your cargo. I once lost 2 out of 5 DWK when their Stormraven was destroyed.

I'm a big fan of Twin Autocannon / Twin Lascannon ven dreads. Keep them static, and you're hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's, and even though there is no invuln, you do get a 6+++ FNP. I agree that FW options are better here, but they're not nearly as accessible. They need to be screened though.

 

In short, the main problem with Deathwing is that there are other things out there that do the same job...but cheaper.

[Berzul]

Full Deathwing is almost impossible to play right now, for anything other than pure narrative fun.

 

We lack mobility, charging boosts, firepower, and numbers.

 

Now, I do play a single 5-man squad with stock options of Terminators on most my lists, just as mid game line breakers and objective-camper killers.

 

I drop them in turn three, clear some light infantry from a backfield objective, and keep them in the enemy deployment zone to get some extra points.

 

For that, they serve their purpose well. For anything else? Its hard to make them work, really.

[Hantheman]

I had great fun playing fluff games with them. Especially against people who also choose off-meta choices. It’s great to have a game which most things are still alive turn 2/3.

 

But yeah, way too expensive and needs to be T5 or have some damage mitigation

[Hannibal]

Hi all,

 

did anyone notice the marginal change in Deathwing Fluff in the latest issue of WD? There is something written about Deathwing now also includes Gravis-Armour-wielding guys. It´s not further explained, but it leads to the assumption that now Inceptors and Aggressors are also part of the Deathwing which gives you some more units to consider. Inceptors for example offer great speed, a ressilence that matches Terminators and lots of Dakka. IMO these are a good addition to any Deathwing force.

Captains in Gravis Armor can also be included based on the WD article, but I can´t see a real niche for these.

 

In addition it can be assumed that all new Dreadnoughts can also be included in pure Deathwing forces. That is an other source of Dakka.

 

Overall Deathwing is still the heavily armoured force it has already been but now you get at least some more small army fire to handle hordes.

[Berzul]

I still think we need a true substitute for Terminators, before DW can be considered a pure primaris force.

 

And since it has to be able to stand as full primaris, Im pretty sure a gravis or gravis-like substitute for Terminators is coming at one point.

[Deadman Wade]

Don't see primaris as Deathwing at all. Terminators are the most elite unit that chapters can field, and gravis armor is for regular primaris. So if we'll just paint primaris armor bone, what's the point of having Deathwing if it's just brighter battle company units?

[UtariOnzo]

I think it’s a case of wait and see what comes out. All we have is the white dwarf article telling us the Unforgiven are trying out Primaris in the Deathwing, but we really need rules and models to represent that before I, and I feel plenty of others, can really justify fielding them.

 

By all means if someone wants to rock Gravis units in bone as part of a Deathwing force, more power to them, but right now I can’t see them on a tabletop as more then a paintjob on an otherwise regular unit. With the exception of the Master in Gravis armour and using a CP, you don’t even get the Deathwing keyword

[Berzul]

Don't see primaris as Deathwing at all. Terminators are the most elite unit that chapters can field, and gravis armor is for regular primaris. So if we'll just paint primaris armor bone, what's the point of having Deathwing if it's just brighter battle company units?

 

Well, the WD Article made it pretty clear that Primaris ARE going into the Deathwing.

 

Historcally, yeah. The DW is a Terminator company, and only veterans are allowed to use Terminator Armor. So, up to this point in time, DW is 100% Terminators. At the same time, any veteran of any chapter can pretty much use any suit of armor.It just so happens that the Dark Angels have their veterans in the first company use only Terminator Armor. But veterans could be wearing power armor, terminator armor, centurion armor, gravis armor, or any kind of armor out there.

 

Now, Primaris Marines are going into the Deathwing, so we must already assume that

 

1) There are primaris veterans (since being a veteran is one of the prerequisites to advance into the 1st company), and

2) Either the tradition of 100% terminator armor in the Deathwing has ended or is close to an end, or

3) That a new form of terminator armor is coming that will be granted to veterans from the primaris marines, so that primaris veterans that move into the company can maintain the tradition of terminator armor.

 

I think what will ost likely happen is that we will just get a special kit of gravis armor primaris marines, with some weapon options not available to other chapters, and that will be our Primaris Terminator Equivalents. But, we can try and remain hopeful that a new type of units will be introduced, that both work as Primaris Veterans, and are fielded in a form of armor that maintains the tradition of the DW.

 

.... the alternative, is that GW goes the easy way out of the whole deal, and simply call it that from now on DW is not just all terminators, and any form of armor is game. So, go and make whatever kind of units you want, just paint them bone, and slap the Deathwing keyword on them. Which, honeslty, would not really bother me that much, since, to be honest, the Deathwing special rule is pretty much a non-rule already, that serves no use or purpose in a game for the most part.

[INKS]

Which WD article has this more recent information? 

[Berzul]

I think it was the September issue of White Dwarf

[Deadman Wade]

 

Don't see primaris as Deathwing at all. Terminators are the most elite unit that chapters can field, and gravis armor is for regular primaris. So if we'll just paint primaris armor bone, what's the point of having Deathwing if it's just brighter battle company units?

 

Well, the WD Article made it pretty clear that Primaris ARE going into the Deathwing.

 

Historcally, yeah. The DW is a Terminator company, and only veterans are allowed to use Terminator Armor. So, up to this point in time, DW is 100% Terminators. At the same time, any veteran of any chapter can pretty much use any suit of armor.It just so happens that the Dark Angels have their veterans in the first company use only Terminator Armor. But veterans could be wearing power armor, terminator armor, centurion armor, gravis armor, or any kind of armor out there.

 

Now, Primaris Marines are going into the Deathwing, so we must already assume that

 

1) There are primaris veterans (since being a veteran is one of the prerequisites to advance into the 1st company), and

2) Either the tradition of 100% terminator armor in the Deathwing has ended or is close to an end, or

3) That a new form of terminator armor is coming that will be granted to veterans from the primaris marines, so that primaris veterans that move into the company can maintain the tradition of terminator armor.

 

I think what will ost likely happen is that we will just get a special kit of gravis armor primaris marines, with some weapon options not available to other chapters, and that will be our Primaris Terminator Equivalents. But, we can try and remain hopeful that a new type of units will be introduced, that both work as Primaris Veterans, and are fielded in a form of armor that maintains the tradition of the DW.

 

.... the alternative, is that GW goes the easy way out of the whole deal, and simply call it that from now on DW is not just all terminators, and any form of armor is game. So, go and make whatever kind of units you want, just paint them bone, and slap the Deathwing keyword on them. Which, honeslty, would not really bother me that much, since, to be honest, the Deathwing special rule is pretty much a non-rule already, that serves no use or purpose in a game for the most part.

 

Pretty sure that we'll get no new units or primaris-TDA equivalent. IIRC, primaris units have no 2+ armor at all (does Calgar have 2+? Haven't read Ultramarines rules). Maybe GW wants to get rid of 2+, IDK, but it's been over 2 years with no new heavy armored units, but a whole bunch of kids-friendly spec-ops wannabees.

So we'll see the typical lazy GW way.

 

The key difference between Deathwing and regular 1st company was that Deathwing are only terminators, while codex-chapter vets use regular power armor as well. So having primaris units in Deathwing means that there's basically no Deathwing, just a regular 1st company with different color scheme. 

[Berzul]

Maybe, and that goes down a different road that I fear we might have to start treading, and that is the eventual complete rehaul of the entire codex.

 

But, for now, we still do not have ACTUAL Deathwing rules for any of this units. Just a lore justification to paint some things in bone, and a preview of things to come.

 

So, only ways I can see this going about are:

 

1) GW releases a TEQ unit in primaris form, to justify the inclusion of them in the Deathwing.

2) GW changes the rules so that already existing primaris units can get the Deathwing keyword. Maybe outright, or maybe just with a Stratagem like Inner Circle.

3) GW goes all in, and straight up changes the Codex so as to make away with the Deathwing altogether. Maybe keeping the name? But just as a matter of lore and tradition, with no impact on rules or army composition whatsoever.

 

At times I keep thinking, and I know I'll get some looks for this, but stil... at times I keep thinking, if it wouldn't just be better for GW to just call it quits with the structure of the chapter, take the exit here at the Ultima Founding, and just make the Dark Angels like any other chapter. No more division between wings, no more nothing. Just, "veterans here, rest over there, and paint your models whichever way you want, and play the army like any other space marine army, only with one or two specific units here and there", just like other non-codex compliant chapters.

 

I mean, we are clearly the odd men out, and GW has effectively written themselves into a corner they keep failing to get out of with trying to make us use the same "new" units as everyone else, while at the same time trying to keep us structured in a special way noone else has.

 

At times I feel like our structure is more of a burden than a boon, at this point.

 

They could just bring back the Lion, have it out with Luther, and refound the entire Dark Angels into just a normal structured chapter, and be done with the whole thing. Just a thousand Primaris Marines with no need for divisions or circles within circles.

 

I have long been in favour of GW shaking things up with ONE of the chapters in the game. I thought they would do it with the BA after Baal got f*****, but since that wasn't the case, well maybe we are the next best bet.

 

EDIT: I originally said I'd get hate for my suggestion that the Dark Angels get changed at their core. I realize this is a much stronger word than I originally meant. Changed it accordingly.

[UtariOnzo]

I think it’s most likely we’ll see a terminators+gravis force. I’m leaning it’ll be use CP to give a gavis unit the Inner Circle and Deathwing keywords and a similar thing with the RW (use a cp to give a phobis unit the ravenwing keyword)

 

I do feel GW is in a bind, but then again we don’t know what’s in the pipeline for the next two years, so who knows. As it stands, in terms of a rules wise pure deathwing it’s termies and drop pods/landraiders only and lore wise, the above plus gravis and Repulsors

[Aothaine]

 

You're spot on really. Dark Angels have too many specialty units, much like Space Wolves and Blood Angels. This alone is going to push their releases back. But this isn't always a bad thing since codex creep is a thing. When Dark Angels do get their release they need several unit designs if they are going to keep the chapter make up the same. Primaris Bikers and Primaris Terminator suits. I think Dark Angels, Blood Angels & Space Wolves will get their codex late 2020 after an onslaught of Xenos, Chaos and Imperial Guard releases.

[Berzul]

It would make sense for releases to come at the end of next year, after xenos and guard get some of their own.

 

But, I wasn't talking about the specialty of the units delaying releases.

 

I was talking about GW getting rid of the structure of Deathwing, Ravenwing and Greenwing altogether. So that Primaris can be inducted into the chapter properly.

 

Right now GW might make new models, which would be nice, but they might also just say that the units already out there are now OK for use in the DW or the RW... Which would go against so much of the chapter's traditional structure, most would hate it.

 

Considering the issue Primaris have been for the Unforgiven so far, perhaps GW might make it easier on itself by eliminating the problem instead of solving it.

[G8Keeper]

It would make sense for releases to come at the end of next year, after xenos and guard get some of their own.

 

But, I wasn't talking about the specialty of the units delaying releases.

 

I was talking about GW getting rid of the structure of Deathwing, Ravenwing and Greenwing altogether. So that Primaris can be inducted into the chapter properly.

 

Right now GW might make new models, which would be nice, but they might also just say that the units already out there are now OK for use in the DW or the RW... Which would go against so much of the chapter's traditional structure, most would hate it.

 

Considering the issue Primaris have been for the Unforgiven so far, perhaps GW might make it easier on itself by eliminating the problem instead of solving it.

 

The problem is in doing so GW remove most of what makes DA unique, removes a fair few plastic kits and destroys the huge DA player base in the process.

[Berzul]

Yes. That's true.

I will add, at this point, that I both do not want the DAs to lose their identity, but at the same time I'd be in favor of any one chapter —even the DA— to be changed, destroyed, or turned to Chaos, as a way to shake up the game.

WH40k, both in its grand setting, and in each army and chapter, seems to employ a good and commonly used world-building technique, in which you establish your setting through a combination of twi elements. A standard statement of being, and a looming crisis.

Examples of this are everywhere. Take the very core of the setting, for instance:

The Imperium is a galaxy spanning society, at war on all sides, held together by the light of the Emperor from his golden throne. BUT, the throne is failing, and when it breaks, the Imperium is lost.

The looming crisis works as a catalyst. A call to action, that gives us a sense that the story moves forward towards something, even if nothing ever really changes.

This is present in even the chapters.

Blood Angels face the crisis of the black rage and the red thirst present in their genes.

Space Wolves face the crisis of the wulfen and their own genetic mutation.

But, the Dark Angels are different. Their crisis is one of loyalty, not gene-seed. And that is where the problem starts.

The game always had this notion of technological stagnation. But, Cawl and Guilliman changed that. Now we have a new age of technology, with the astartes getting new weapons, new vehicles, and new soldiers, all the time.

This change to the lore can be compatible (to am extent) with chapters to which their looming crisis is genetical. Blood Angels and Space Wolved can induct Primaris Marines with less issue, becase the flaw that calls them to action as a part of the setting is present in them, regardless of their political and military structure.

Not so with the Dark Angels.

Our crisis is not in our gene-seed, but in our secrets. And we have a whole chapter structure based on protecting that. One that is simply incompatible with Primaris as they are.

In a sense, I insist, GW wrote themselves into a corner with our Chapter, and they seem to be trying to get out of it in a way that maximizes profit and minimizes loss of player base.

Think of the WD article. Why did it come now, all of a sudden, and in no connection to any releases for the chapter? What was its main, and pretty much only point? That Hey, don't worry. You can just put Primaris Models into the DW and the RW! Here is a bit of fluff about how its a-ok. Go buy new kits and paint them bone!.

Space Wolves didn't need that. Blood Angels neither. They have just one color for their armor, and one central structure to their chapter. We needed that.

 

And the reason for it is clear. GW needs to find a solution to the fact that their Primaris Marines work in a way of homogenization, and a codex like the DA simply cannot be compatible with that, at the moment.

So, again, i think GW has few options.

1) They double down on their primaris, and simply say that the DW and the RW remain as is, only with primaris models being part of either company with no more mechanical difference in the game. Keeping the chapter as is, just with generic primaris units everywhere. Which would make little sense, and many players wouldn't like, as it would go in the face of the traditions of the chapter and its identity.

2) They make special unique units for DW and RW primaris. Which would cost money to make, and only sell to a very specific player base, thus probably selling less than generic primaris units and not being an ideal business decision.

3) They cut the problem at the root, by solving the looming crisis of the chapter through an event that brings the secrets and circles within circles to a close. Which, yes, will alienate many players, but will at least give the primaris thing a lore-based justification that makes some sense.

[Hantheman]

Yeah totally agree. Also the move away from gothic space marines makes me think all the non-codex armies will end up just being generic ultramarines clones to save in effort

[Lostrael]

They already started to add lore around Ravenwing and Deathwing for Primaris in the last White Dwarf. 

 

The Indomitus Crusade took what... 100 years? Enough time to learn the secrets of Cawl's techpriests and let them have some accidents. 

So we can create trustworthy brothers. 

 

The easiest way would be to add new primaris units type to deathwing and ravenwing and give them a special rules that makes them special to their wing.

 

Or make DEATHWING or RAVENWING a keyword with some special rules (that makes sense), which you than can attach to a Primaris Unit. 

No new models or unit types required, just some optional rules. Though an upgrade set with robes would be nice. 

[Berzul]

Yeah, that could def. be a way to go.

 

Make DW or RW a special rule given to any unit through in codex mechanics, or stratagems. Maybe make them special detachments, costing CP to use.

 

A Ravenwing detachment, and a Deathwing detachment. Put your primaris in one of them, they gain the keyword, and some rules.

 

So, that way you get the same primaris units everyone else has.

[Stormxlr]

I have another idea, bring back the 6 hexagrammaton structure. Primaris could be divided up into those quite neatly.

[G8Keeper]

Some good points and ideas here.  If GW ever read these forums take heed! (I doubt they do outside of news and rumours if at all).

 

I agree with Berzul that GW painted themselves into a corner with the Primaris lore and DA.  I'm hoping by including Primaris in the DW & RW in the White Dwarf article they have finally figured out how to incorporate them. Just to go over the 3 options you mentioned Berzul:

 

1) They double down on their primaris, and simply say that the DW and the RW remain as is, only with primaris models being part of either company with no more mechanical difference in the game. Keeping the chapter as is, just with generic primaris units everywhere. Which would make little sense, and many players wouldn't like, as it would go in the face of the traditions of the chapter and its identity.

 

I think this would be tricky as they're basically saying Primaris can fit into terminator armour and onto bikes (the latter is fine I think), but only for DA and only because we couldn't think of another way to do it.

2) They make special unique units for DW and RW primaris. Which would cost money to make, and only sell to a very specific player base, thus probably selling less than generic primaris units and not being an ideal business decision.

 

My preferred option but would require GW to begin chapter specific Primaris.  Hey, they did it with normal DW & RW kits. 

3) They cut the problem at the root, by solving the looming crisis of the chapter through an event that brings the secrets and circles within circles to a close. Which, yes, will alienate many players, but will at least give the primaris thing a lore-based justification that makes some sense.

 

I just can't see this one happening in any scenarios but the return of the Lion or a complete fall to chaos.  Interesting as that may be, such a huge change would be harmful from a business stand point, mind you, they did it with Bretonians.

 

Secret option 4) Integrate Primaris ala Deathwatch.  0-5 Gravis armour marines may be taken in a DW squad.  It plays to the ability DW already have to mix and match weaponry over vanilla chapters.  RW would be an issue as Phobos marines wouldn't be able to keep up.

[Berzul]

I like your secret 4) idea. But I really do wonder how it would go down with the community of players. You'd still be breaking the tradition of a DW being formed by Terminators, and the RW being on bikes or vehicles.

 

It is clear that the only way to do this properly would be to make special kits and new units, particular to the DA, so that we can have Primaris Terminators and Primaris Bikers. But, again, I wonder if by their current attitude towards sales and the business side of things, GW would really invest resources into specific units that they cannot later sell to other marine chapters. It seems like they are trying to go the exact opposite way. With units being made as generic as possible, so as to be able to sell them to any astartes player, just with a different paint job.

 

As much as that sounds dismissive of GW on my part, I do not say it as a way to insult them. THe business logic behind what they have been doing is absolutely reasonable. I just wish it wasn't the case that the game keeps going on the way of All armies are the same, just paint them different.

 

To take this further, consider the revival of the successors mechanic, and the incorporation of rules to make your own craftworlds and kabals. Something that I am pretty sure will also be applied to every other army in the game. I LOVE this mechanic, as it allows you to make the ary your own. Custom colors, and custom traits, to match what you envision YOUR army as. But, at the same time, going heavy on the identity making mechanics  of the game into the rules and traits, but not on the unit availability, is a tradeoff that starts to make the armies different pretty much on nothing but a couple of rules and a color scheme. Over time, it will get old, I feel that all marines are pretty much the same collection of units, just with a few different traits.

 

Of course, this is taking the issue to the abslute extreme, so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

Still, while I understand the thought process that must be going on in the minds of GW, I still feel like they continue to botch a bit their solutions to this one, single chaper, that they simply could not put in the same mold as everyone else.

 

P.S.: On a side note, funny you would menton Bretonnia. I was a HUGE Bretonnia fan in WFB, and the only reason I haven't picked up AoS, is because I still have not seen an army that can really be considered a successor of the great bretonnian army :(