Pure Deathwing - How are we doing?

[Interrogator Stobz]

Just play both DW and RW as counts as Custodes. Similar units only of course.

Makes the fluff suit the rules.

[Berzul]

Just play both DW and RW as counts as Custodes. Similar units only of course.

Makes the fluff suit the rules.

I already play as "counts as" Dark Angels with my successors, to not handicap myself with the successor rule of the codex.

 

I thinl playing successors that count as progenitors that count as a whole other army, might be pushing it a bit too far.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I have plenty of beardy mates that would do it, I never would personally.

I did some counts as back in 4th Ed but the new me won't.

But the Custard rules are what marines should be, maybe a smidge too good, but close.

[Fajita Fan]

Well GK can still take terminators as troops, to be able to play my army I wonder how many people would have a problem with counts-as GK.

 

I wonder what a DW list using an older codex with the new points would look like?  I'm at work and I'm pretty sure I have my 4th edition book still.  

[G8Keeper]

I just run all of my DW at Knights most of the time, helps that I have 15 or so thunder hammer dudes. They do some work with the extra attack on the charge, coupled with Asmodai and an Ancient they become deadly, problem is keeping them alive.

[Hannibal]

IMO changing the 5+ ward save to a 5+ feel no pain would go a long way in making terminators better. Yet I bet they would become a viable choice then.

Move an fir heavy weapons without penalty would be icing on the cake.

 

I think that 5+ ward saves on low wounds infabtry are useless these days because of rend. Terminators only get to use a 5+ ward save on rend -4 or better which isn't that common in the entire game. It's a wasted rule!

[Berzul]

I don't know.

 

You'd have to change the entire lore of the Crux Terminatus, and also balance this new rule with those armies that already have FnP special rules on them. At the same time, I'm not sure if AP-4 weapons are that abundant. I'd say that the real problem for Terminators is that what is rampant this edition is Multi-Wound weapons. Having 2W is not really something that makes a unit all that resilient.

 

I think that, more than FnP, a way that it could be done is for Terminators to have a higher toughness, pr perhaps a special rule that makes them -1 to be wounded. Even, perhaps, a rule to reduce all damage taken by 1, to a minimum of 1. Something that can help them survive longer on the battlefield.

 

A T4 with 2W model with a 2+/5+ save is little better than a tactical marine in cover, and won't last long on the battlefield once deployed.

[Fajita Fan]

Just play both DW and RW as counts as Custodes. Similar units only of course.

Makes the fluff suit the rules.

Been giving this a lot of thought and that's a compelling idea if you make everything WYSIWYG for your opponent.

 

Custodian Guard with Guardian Spear:  Modeled as a DWT with sword and stormbolter

Custodian Guard with Sword/Shield:  Terminator with TH/SS

[obviously you'd lose cyclones]

 

Allarus Terminator:  DW Knight with mace turned into an axe and stormbolter

 

Trajann:  Belial with converted axe/stormbolter

 

Contemptor Dread: Eh...

 

Landraider: Duh

 

Jetbikes: I love the fluff of the RW having the last jetbike but I guess you just model flying RW?  

[Volt]

I don't know.

 

You'd have to change the entire lore of the Crux Terminatus, and also balance this new rule with those armies that already have FnP special rules on them. At the same time, I'm not sure if AP-4 weapons are that abundant. I'd say that the real problem for Terminators is that what is rampant this edition is Multi-Wound weapons. Having 2W is not really something that makes a unit all that resilient.

 

I think that, more than FnP, a way that it could be done is for Terminators to have a higher toughness, pr perhaps a special rule that makes them -1 to be wounded. Even, perhaps, a rule to reduce all damage taken by 1, to a minimum of 1. Something that can help them survive longer on the battlefield.

 

A T4 with 2W model with a 2+/5+ save is little better than a tactical marine in cover, and won't last long on the battlefield once deployed.

The Crux doesn't actually contain any shield generator and most Crux's are completely empty. It's a bauble slapped on and is purely cosmetic.

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++THE EMPEROR PROTECTS BROTHER VOLT!+++

 

+++ COME... WITH... ME.... :devil: +++

[Waking Dreamer]

You'd have to change the entire lore of the Crux Terminatus, and also balance this new rule with those armies that already have FnP special rules on them. At the same time, I'm not sure if AP-4 weapons are that abundant. I'd say that the real problem for Terminators is that what is rampant this edition is Multi-Wound weapons. Having 2W is not really something that makes a unit all that resilient.

 

I think that, more than FnP, a way that it could be done is for Terminators to have a higher toughness, pr perhaps a special rule that makes them -1 to be wounded. Even, perhaps, a rule to reduce all damage taken by 1, to a minimum of 1. Something that can help them survive longer on the battlefield.

 

That's a potentially powerful combo. The -1 to the opponent's wound roll and -1 damage to min 1 for all units that have the TERMINATOR keyword. That could make DW and Terminators in general more respected on the table, and not completely overshadowed by Aggressors and Centurions when it comes to survivability. The one spike in power would be Death Guard Terminators who would have essentially T8/T9 with these rules. Normal bolter fire would need to wound them on 6s and even Lascannon fire would wound wound them on 4s. They are expensive even for terminator models and slow though, so with a meta full of IK armies and mass bolter fire, they probably wont become unbeatable, but just be very impresssive.

[G8Keeper]

I don't think Termies will get both -1 to wound and -1 damage, one or the other yes.  I'd prefer -1 to wound and then maybe have a Interrogator Chaplain vow aura or just DWK getting -1 damage?

[Berzul]

Yeah, I meant for one rule to apply. Not all, or even two at a time.

[Berzul]

Of all options, Id ask for

 

Regular saves on 2d6 (invuls stay as they are)

T5 on the profile

All damage received is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1.

 

That would make them a LOT more resilient. Specially against mass D2 or Dd3 attacks

[G8Keeper]

Of all options, Id ask for

 

Regular saves on 2d6 (invuls stay as they are)

T5 on the profile

All damage received is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1.

 

That would make them a LOT more resilient. Specially against mass D2 or Dd3 attacks

 

I think with all of that they'd need to almost double in points, it's just too much I think, as much as I'd love it :).

 

One of those can go on the profile/datasheet, any others need to be from auras, stratagems or the like, where you have to take or use something else to activate it. That balances it out. Save wise I would tweak the 2d6 to a 3+ like in 2nd edition. Mind you, that's quite powerful with only average rolls needed vs -4 weapons to save.

[Volt]

2d6 saves sound great until you have to roll for 50 or even 100 hits from an enemy unit. It's feasible without the current edition's dice spam, but as-is would hilariously bloat game time whenever terminators entered the field.

[Berzul]

Quite true.

 

Well, if profiles wsont change (since they'd have to update ALL marines), I guess maybe a point cost drop?

 

If a 5 man tactical squad costs 69 points with a power sword, and a terminator squad is roughly just 10 tacticals that deepstrike (in terms of firepower and wounds), maybe the squad should go down in cost.

 

Maybe from 165 points to, I don't know... 140?

 

That way taking a vanguard of barebones terminators could go for a base cost of 420 points plus a character. Which would be quite nice.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Berzul

[G8Keeper]

Quite true.

 

Well, if profiles wsont change (since they'd have to update ALL marines), I guess maybe a point cost drop?

 

If a 5 man tactical squad costs 69 points with a power sword, and a terminator squad is roughly just 10 tacticals that deepstrike (in terms of firepower and wounds), maybe the squad should go down in cost.

 

Maybe from 165 points to, I don't know... 140?

 

That way taking a vanguard of barebones terminators could go for a base cost of 420 points plus a character. Which would be quite nice.

 

It runs the risk of bringing in "terminator horde" armies though, which definitely shouldn't be a thing.  Personally I don't mind the current price point, add some survivability and move and fire heavy weapons and I'm sold.

[Volt]

I'd just give them a 5+++ instead of a 5+, bump them up to T5, and increase the armor save to a 1+

[Berzul]

 

 

Quite true.

 

Well, if profiles wsont change (since they'd have to update ALL marines), I guess maybe a point cost drop?

 

If a 5 man tactical squad costs 69 points with a power sword, and a terminator squad is roughly just 10 tacticals that deepstrike (in terms of firepower and wounds), maybe the squad should go down in cost.

 

Maybe from 165 points to, I don't know... 140?

 

That way taking a vanguard of barebones terminators could go for a base cost of 420 points plus a character. Which would be quite nice.

It runs the risk of bringing in "terminator horde" armies though, which definitely shouldn't be a thing. Personally I don't mind the current price point, add some survivability and move and fire heavy weapons and I'm sold.

The point would be to reduce the cost of DW terminators. Not all terminators.

 

If one army is supposed to bring LOTS of terminators, its us.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Berzul

[G8Keeper]

True, for me personally though a low(ered) points cost elite heavy infantry unit just doesn't sit well. Far better to improve them without having to increase quantity, even the DW rarely deploys as a sizeable force.

[HandsWithLegs]

Would ignoring some AP work for terminators? For example they ignore 2 points of AP, so AP -1 and AP -2 are completely ignored, AP -3 is treated as -1, -4 becomes -2 and so on. It would make them more survivable and make their armor seem truly superior to other marines

[Waking Dreamer]

Would ignoring some AP work for terminators? For example they ignore 2 points of AP, so AP -1 and AP -2 are completely ignored, AP -3 is treated as -1, -4 becomes -2 and so on. It would make them more survivable and make their armor seem truly superior to other marines

Wouldn't that mean DWK would only have their stormshields kick in against AP-4. DWT would be the superior choice in nearly all scenarios...?

 

 

the risk of bringing in "terminator horde" armies though, which definitely shouldn't be a thing. Personally I don't mind the current price point, add some survivability and move and fire heavy weapons and I'm sold.

The point would be to reduce the cost of DW terminators. Not all terminators.

If one army is supposed to bring LOTS of terminators, its us.

Well that, or maybe Grey Knights too....

[Hannibal]

All damage received is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1.

 

That would make them a LOT more resilient. Specially against mass D2 or Dd3 attacks

 

Can´t really agree here. IMO new SM offer lots of Damage1 DAKKA with Rend -1 or -2 depending on the game state due to their new rules. Making Terminators recieve reduced damage would not really help here due to extremely high number of shots.

 

+1 toughness would be the better deal IMO to increase ressilence against massed low strenght / mediocre AP shooting.

[Volt]

 

Would ignoring some AP work for terminators? For example they ignore 2 points of AP, so AP -1 and AP -2 are completely ignored, AP -3 is treated as -1, -4 becomes -2 and so on. It would make them more survivable and make their armor seem truly superior to other marines

Wouldn't that mean DWK would only have their stormshields kick in against AP-4. DWT would be the superior choice in nearly all scenarios...?

 

 

the risk of bringing in "terminator horde" armies though, which definitely shouldn't be a thing. Personally I don't mind the current price point, add some survivability and move and fire heavy weapons and I'm sold.

The point would be to reduce the cost of DW terminators. Not all terminators.

If one army is supposed to bring LOTS of terminators, its us.

Well that, or maybe Grey Knights too....

 

Better idea again is to just turn the ++ into a +++ save. So terminators with storm shields would have either a 3+++ or a 4+++