Are Berzerkers Necessary Anymore?

[Aothaine]

So, lets take stock here. With the new rule giving CSM the extra attack when in assault for the first round of combat, are Berzerkers still needed?

 

Is it better to carry a load of 10 berzerkers in a rhino up the field and risk them being stranded? Or is it better to walk a 20 csm squad up the board? To do the slice and dicing? 

 

What are your thoughts?

[Marshal Loss]

Berzerkers also receive this bonus, so it's not like they have been left behind. Shock Assault gave many of our units a boost but the ones that get the most out of it were ones who already wanted to be in close combat, e.g. Berzerkers. I don't think anybody is going to be scared by a CSM blob walking up the board waving their chainswords around. If you are building vanilla CSM with close combat in mind you should be considering Berzerkers instead.

[Kain Mor]

I’m pretty sure the only way you’d get a 20 man footslogging unit of marines into combat is if your opponent died of laughter before he could shoot them. That would be a colossal and comical waste of points which would survive maybe one turn. Slight chance of two turns if black legion with Abby...

[Gederas]

So, lets take stock here. With the new rule giving CSM the extra attack when in assault for the first round of combat, are Berzerkers still needed?

 

Is it better to carry a load of 10 berzerkers in a rhino up the field and risk them being stranded? Or is it better to walk a 20 csm squad up the board? To do the slice and dicing? 

 

What are your thoughts?

Hmm....

 

2 Attacks (3 with Shock Assault) each, fighting twice (and keeping the Shock Assault extra attack) at Strength 5, or 1 attack (2 with Shock Assault) at S4 and only fighting once....

 

My money is on the Berzerkers.

 

Especially since if you kit them out with Chainaxe/Chainsword that's 3 attacks at S6, 1 at S5 PER BERZERKER.

 

Berzerkers also receive this bonus, so it's not like they have been left behind. Shock Assault gave many of our units a boost but the ones that get the most out of it were ones who already wanted to be in close combat, e.g. Berzerkers. I don't think anybody is going to be scared by a CSM blob walking up the board waving their chainswords around. If you are building vanilla CSM with close combat in mind you should be considering Berzerkers instead.

I’m pretty sure the only way you’d get a 20 man footslogging unit of marines into combat is if your opponent died of laughter before he could shoot them. That would be a colossal and comical waste of points which would survive maybe one turn. Slight chance of two turns if black legion with Abby...

Also, this. You are NOT going to get that 20-man blob of Chaos Marines up the board before they're shot off it.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Gederas

[Tyriks]

If anything, Hateful Assault is a huge boon to berserkers. Fewer bodies get the same output, and your opponent might not consider a smaller squad as big a threat.

[Aothaine]

I am not saying that Berzerkers are not good. But perhaps they over kill too much. Part of list building for competitive play is to get the right amount of killyness. If you over kill by 20 wounds then resources were wasted. Which is why I was thinking a CSM squad might be enough. Lowering the Berzerker count is dangerous because you have to make it through the assault phase. Unless you charge with the Rhino which can be an option in some situations.

 

 

If anything, Hateful Assault is a huge boon to berserkers. Fewer bodies get the same output, and your opponent might not consider a smaller squad as big a threat.

 

 

True, but you risk your Berzerkers getting shredded in over watch. 

 

 

Edit: I also want to mention that I could very well just be wrong. I am posing this question because I don't know. Is a CSM squad trucking it up the board with chainswords better than Berzerkers in a Rhino? Are CSM squads in a Rhino better than berzerkers in a Rhino?

 

Maybe it just depends on the enemy. But I really don't think Berzerkers are required for everything.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Aothaine

[Marshal Loss]

The price difference between normal CSM and Berzerkers is negligible when you consider how vast the gulf between them in terms of close combat potential is. And considering that difference in melee ability, why would you take a unit kitted out for CC that has no AP on their cc weapons and is far more likely to not do enough damage to kill anything over a unit that is likely to wipe out anything they touch outright?

 

If you want to make the case for Vanilla CSM over Berzerkers, then make the case. But to make that case you are going to need to think of a situation where it makes more sense to build a unit of Vanilla CSM (already sub-optimal and not one taken in competitive lists beyond the occasional RC CP generator) to fulfill a role that a dedicated CC unit already does better.

 

 

Is a CSM squad trucking it up the board with chainswords better than Berzerkers in a Rhino?

 

Nope.

 

Are CSM squads in a Rhino better than berzerkers in a Rhino?

 

Without context there is no right answer, but if you're looking to kill things in close combat...nope.

 

But I really don't think Berzerkers are required for everything.

 

Nobody is saying that Berzerkers are "required for everything" though, just that they are far superior to Vanilla CSM if you are picking a power armoured unit explicitly for melee. There are other capable melee choices but Vanilla CSM weren't exactly great to begin with. Hateful Assault helps but doesn't really change anything.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Cheex]

I am not saying that Berzerkers are not good. But perhaps they over kill too much. Part of list building for competitive play is to get the right amount of killyness. If you over kill by 20 wounds then resources were wasted. Which is why I was thinking a CSM squad might be enough. Lowering the Berzerker count is dangerous because you have to make it through the assault phase. Unless you charge with the Rhino which can be an option in some situations.

 

The difference between Berzerker overkill and most other overkill is that Berzerker attacks are split over two separate fight activations, so it's easier to spread their damage around do different enemy units. Just make sure you declare charges against at least 2 units so you can even use their additional activations.

 

This difference is important because you not only get all the extra attacks, but you also get tons of extra movement. Your second target could be 6" behind your initial target, and you could still consolidate/pile in to hit them as well. Even if you don't declare charges against a second unit (e.g. if they're too far away), you can still get 9" or more of extra movement to tie them up (just be careful since they'll be able to attack you without you being able to attack them!).

 

Plus, because of their strength and AP with chainaxes, Berzerkers are able to handle a lot more in melee than regular CSM can. I would never throw a unit of CSM into combat with a Land Raider or Knight and expect to kill it, for example, whereas Berzerkers have a pretty good chance, especially with a little reroll support.

 

Edit: I also want to mention that I could very well just be wrong. I am posing this question because I don't know. Is a CSM squad trucking it up the board with chainswords better than Berzerkers in a Rhino? Are CSM squads in a Rhino better than berzerkers in a Rhino?

 

Maybe it just depends on the enemy. But I really don't think Berzerkers are required for everything.

 

It depends on what you're using. World Eaters? Definitely go Berzerkers, IMHO. If you need more bodies, take cultists instead. For everyone else it's a bit of a toss-up since CSM are Troops and much cheaper, so it would depend on their role. CSM aren't great at just killing things, so would only really be good for taking objectives and filling out detachments.

 

I've found Rhinos for Berzerkers to be almost essential, so I would take them for melee-oriented CSM as well. For the cost of 5-6 extra bodies, you get added protection, speed, and the ability to soak up overwatch (always get your rhino to charge first!), not to mention a late-game objective grabber.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Cheex

[Sonoftherubric21]

In my experience foot-blobs of marines need to be duplicated. A single unit of 20 melee marines won't get anything done..... 60-80 however that is another story. 

We need the dang points reduction for base CSM. 

 

In rhinos would also be useful, just make sure they get some kick with melta or plasma as well as their melee. 

 

you won't take any GT tables, but in locals you will be fine more often then not. 

 

This is coming from a man that regularly puts 40-60 Rubricae on the table. lol. 

[Vykes]

20 man strong CSM with chainswords in a Storm Eagle is fun (It does very often get to target), but still not much of a threat compared to Berserker Rhino units.  Now, Berserker Anvillus Dreadclaw units are equally a ton of fun!

 

Honestly, I play Sons of Horus Black Legion against primarily Primaris and tau armies, and while a full sized CSM unit running and gunning is more of a threat than people give them credit for, they get torn up pretty bad no matter how you play it.  I love my 20 strong units, I tend to run 2-3 depending if I want to run my 20 strong plague marines, but they just don't have the durability or output.  Between the plethora of marine pulping weapons wielded by... basically everyone, and the new marine doctrines and traits completely oustripping our stuff, those base CSM aren't pulling their points even as well as they were.  One of the big keys for the CSM is their special or heavy weapons, not their bolters.  But getting rid of boltguns for the chainswords is fun yet inviting disaster unless you have a good plan (Read as, cover, Alpha redeploy, Storm Eagle/Spartan).  And sure, Hateful Assault is nice, it really is, but even non-WE Berserkers definitely become priority #1 for any of my opponents because they get that AND a melee weapon that has some teeth, no pun intended.  It's the chain axes and two attack phases, it means that they can carve up even heroes pretty quickly. 

 

I don' think that berzerkers are necessary, but they're often a whole lot better than CSM once they reach the enemy lines.  Even 2-3 berserkers are often a threat that simply has to be removed, while even 5-6 legionnaires isn't going to catch a lot of attention unless 2 of them have plasma guns or the like.  

[Captain Incompetence]

I agree that regular CSM are still quite bad at close combat and are nowhere near the sheer power a berzerker squad brings. However, I've been thinking about trying out a rhino or two with 5 zerkers and 5 chosen inside. I think I might be able to get away with having smaller zerker squads now due to Hateful Assault. The Chosen can then clear some of the bubblewrap with their combi-weapons while posing a significant threat to MEQ or perhaps even vehicles with their power weapons.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Whatever melee infantry unit we use, we have to look at how well they do if only 2-3 out of 10 make it to enemy lines. That's just how things often are nowadays. Berzerkers are still a serious threat when reduced to that number, especially World Eaters. If Dreadclaws and Rhinos allow you to get even more of them there and soak up overwatch with their own charges, so much the better.

I agree that regular CSM are still quite bad at close combat and are nowhere near the sheer power a berzerker squad brings. However, I've been thinking about trying out a rhino or two with 5 zerkers and 5 chosen inside. I think I might be able to get away with having smaller zerker squads now due to Hateful Assault. The Chosen can then clear some of the bubblewrap with their combi-weapons while posing a significant threat to MEQ or perhaps even vehicles with their power weapons.

Combi-Bolter Chosen can work for that. you can also use Chaincannon Havocs, and make sure to put a Chainaxe and Combi-Bolter on the Champion.....then they can charge in with the Berserkers after murdering the screen and put their T5 and their own Hateful Assault to work in a support role. Against Tau or Ultramarines they could also clear out key adjacent units that could provide supporting Overwatch.

Edited September 16, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[techsoldaten]

Yeah, a Berzerker unit is typically going to achieve some level of overkill now that we have shock assault.

 

Does that mean we don't need them? I think you have to look inside yourself for the answer to that one.

 

At some level, Chaos armies are about the spectacle. I'd be more concerned about Noise Marines now that Bolter Discipline is a thing.

[Kain Mor]

Yeah, a Berzerker unit is typically going to achieve some level of overkill now that we have shock assault.

 

Does that mean we don't need them? I think you have to look inside yourself for the answer to that one.

 

At some level, Chaos armies are about the spectacle. I'd be more concerned about Noise Marines now that Bolter Discipline is a thing.

Bolter discipline doesn’t effect noise marines at all, so I’m unsure about that bit.

[Gederas]

Yeah, a Berzerker unit is typically going to achieve some level of overkill now that we have shock assault.

 

Does that mean we don't need them? I think you have to look inside yourself for the answer to that one.

 

At some level, Chaos armies are about the spectacle. I'd be more concerned about Noise Marines now that Bolter Discipline is a thing.

Bolter discipline doesn’t effect noise marines at all, so I’m unsure about that bit.

I think techsoldaten is referring to the fact that now that Bolter Discipline is a thing, it means the main draw of Noise Marines is overriden by regular Chaos Marines

[Kain Mor]

Ahhh yeah that makes sense now

I mean iirc they are assault 3, so even with Bolter discipline they’re getting an extra shot over regular CSM, not to mention still being able to move.

But of course they are more expensive and if you’re not EmpChildren you’re using elite slots instead of Troops which would cut into CP

Edited September 17, 2019 by Kain Mor

[Aothaine]

Too many good posts in here and not enough likes! I really appreciate everyone's advice and the detailed explanations as well. I do like Berzerkers btw. I was just trying to dig around and see if anyone had any thoughts about how CSM might be able to be utilized instead of them. Turns out I did find another really interesting idea.

 

20 man bolter CSM Alpha Legion Squads getting the scout move of old editions. Puts them in range for bolter discipline on turn two.

 

I to was thinking 5 berzerkers and 5 havocs in rhinos rushing up the board.

[Kain Mor]

In my desperate attempts to get fluffy night lords to win more than one game out of five, I went with the split rhino idea and it worked reasonably well. I’ve since switched to having two havoc squads in one rhino, and a larger unit of Zerkers in the other but that is down to me wanting to try the Master of Executions out. They definitely earn their points and are generally one of the better parts of my army.

 

Master of executions has been quite nice for me as well, I usually spend the cp to bring an extra relic and mark him slaanesh to get the Intoxicating Elixir. I know the general advice would be khorne for the fight twice, but that’s a huge CP investment and I already run low.

 

So with the new rule, in the first round he’s putting out 7 attacks on 2s, at St 10, ap -3 D3 damage. All for 70 pts and one CP he makes a nice complement to the mass hits at lower strength from the 9 Zerkers he rides with.

[Archaeinox]

I am not saying that Berzerkers are not good. But perhaps they over kill too much.

 

 

I only play Thousand Sons but I felt compelled to comment since I have tangled with some World Eaters in some of my opponents' lists. The overkill factor is what ensures that I am controlled and manipulated. In other words, I know that if I goof and let berserkers touch me, they will mulch something. Same goes for 3 Custodes Guard charging me. If they touch me, its bad.

 

and oh boy if you put them in rhinos.. My anti tank goes elsewhere, and the smites probably wont kill the Rhinos. You'll still get even small units in combat. Bad for me- efficient killers for you.

 

Their presence alone makes me adjust my movement and deployment. CSM not so much, and certainly not a blob of them.

Although narrow and in a vacuum, I hope my particular perspective helps. Take the berserkers.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Archaeinox

[Closet Skeleton]

In my experience foot-blobs of marines need to be duplicated. A single unit of 20 melee marines won't get anything done..... 60-80 however that is another story.

 

I got 18 man units up the board fine against a lot of armies in my 100 marine list but they didn't last too long against Tau.

[Khornestar]

I think every comment of substance has already been made before me, but it's not even close. Berzerkers are better by far.

[techsoldaten]

Ahhh yeah that makes sense now

I mean iirc they are assault 3, so even with Bolter discipline they’re getting an extra shot over regular CSM, not to mention still being able to move.

But of course they are more expensive and if you’re not EmpChildren you’re using elite slots instead of Troops which would cut into CP

 

Think about Loyalist Space Marines, the Tactical doctrine and Bolter Discipline. Less shots, more wounds.

 

Part of the appeal of Cult Marines is their extraordinary abilities. The new rules cost Noise Marines some of their cachet.

 

If the spectacle of Cult units is important to you, Berzerkers actually mean more now.