Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work

[Marshal Vespasian]

I was hoping for him to have been a pre unification scientist whose mind was wiped multiple times so he doesnt even know who He is anymore. As. It stands Hes a pokemaster. Which is cool too, but It'd have preferred it if the memory thing would have remained as a flaw not a stealth buff in the vain of "guess what heresy era secrets He will find now"

All in all pretty good from the lore Perspektive though.
I think the characterisation of Felix as new thiel like character Was sorely needed. In DI I and II he felt like every random ultramarine ever.

Its a Trend with haleys books that old marines see primaris as their replacements and either embrace this or are afraid of it. I dislike this. Gw is making rules that see marines as a unified force and they are telling us marines arent going away. So I'd hope to see more of classic marines not going away.

to be fair though this Was about the last of the scythes dying off and wanting to die to Cover their shame, so I guess its what they wanted.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Marshal Vespasian

[Prot]

I agree about the marines. I'm fine with our new Primaris overlords but there's no replacement for experience and that is sorely lacking in every single piece of 'new' marine lore I read.  The rest is fine, but it's almost... disgraceful they way they write 'first born'.  (I was so turned off in the beginning of the new Ultra novel when there is a duel between a numarine and an old marine.)

 

Anyway the book... it's incredible. Far exceeded my expectation and I'm an actual fan of Cawl's. I want to read the spoiler comments in this thread but I'm not quite done. Quite a read though and it should be attractive to a lot of audiences (well except chaos I suppose.)

[DukeLeto69]

I agree about the marines. I'm fine with our new Primaris overlords but there's no replacement for experience and that is sorely lacking in every single piece of 'new' marine lore I read. The rest is fine, but it's almost... disgraceful they way they write 'first born'. (I was so turned off in the beginning of the new Ultra novel when there is a duel between a numarine and an old marine.)

I don’t know why they didn’t ONLY have the primaris rubicon - ie old marines had to convert to numarines - none of this “oh we have 000s on ice”

[Marshal Rohr]

The Gul du Lac Zonality being the real Goldilocks zone mixed with the actual story and the fairy tale and being an ancient scientist was the most 40k thing I’ve read in years

I think having Guy be the main vehicle for building up the metanarrative for the Dark Millennium is starting to pay off extremely well. Instead of seeing a bunch of different stories by different authors it’s definitely something more akin to Gaunts Ghosts, where the disconnected stories are being managed by the same person to maintain a strong consistency. It’s frustrating that this wasn’t done when 8th came out because so much needed a strong narrative foundation that kind of just spun its wheels for years. Edited September 25, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Red_Shift]

I agree about the marines. I'm fine with our new Primaris overlords but there's no replacement for experience and that is sorely lacking in every single piece of 'new' marine lore I read.  The rest is fine, but it's almost... disgraceful they way they write 'first born'.  (I was so turned off in the beginning of the new Ultra novel when there is a duel between a numarine and an old marine.)

 

Anyway the book... it's incredible. Far exceeded my expectation and I'm an actual fan of Cawl's. I want to read the spoiler comments in this thread but I'm not quite done. Quite a read though and it should be attractive to a lot of audiences (well except chaos I suppose.)

It's a fantastic book. Belisarius Cawl has joined Rogal Dorn as a 40k character name that my wife can recognise and recollect, so often have I spoken excitedly of this book and its developments.

[Closet Skeleton]

My impression was that even though Zartulash was imprisoned for millions of years, he's aware of human history, so he'd probably be aware of the DAoT. I was thinking the Emperor is an Old One-created weapon.

 

The original Necron War in Heaven lore was that the Old Ones created the Eldar and other psychic species to counter the C'tan so from the C'tan's perspective any psychic could be a 'weapon'.

 

If regular humans are far removed from their intended purpose but the Emperor is a weapon then that would fit with the Shaman origin idea that the Emperor's role is to guide humanity to their purpose, just from the C'tan perspective.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Red_Shift]

I would take any lore reveals courtesy of the C'tan with a pinch of salt, given that it fell for a Red Dwarf "can I just distract you for a moment?" level trick.

[Aramis K]

Really enjoyed it. Opens up Cawl and Felix as characters I want to read more about.

Lots to think over and speculate on.

[Roomsky]

Well, I'm glad I had a credit to burn because I actually read the first 3 chapters and I don't know if I would have been able to make it through the thing otherwise. Haley's books always listen far better than they read, the VA talent at Black Library is great for injecting personality into even the most banal writing, 

 

Uhh, it was fine I guess. Lot's of nifty lore reveals, a good discussion book. Cawl's past was interesting and Haley works just as hard as the other BL writers to elevate the 8th ed fluff, and expand it into something new. I also really appreciate the books' antagonists being xenos that need more time in the sun. The Pharos was an excellent device for exposition.

 

Oh, and there's something wonderful about the narrator using his Fabius voice for Cawl.

 

But I'm feeling mean today so I'm calling the writing out for being stunted and boring, and all the characters besides Cawl are flat as a pancake. The action sequences are worse, I feel like all the dialogue and descriptors are copy-pasted between Haley's books before switching the proper nouns. Maybe worth a read for the lore but not an ounce of depth.

 

5/10 because I don't want to give it more or less than a passing grade.

[b1soul]

It did read pretty flat to me, but still better than anything by Kyme, Swallow, or Thorpe. I do think the tone of Haley's descriptions and dialogue tends not to vary across stories. I think this is due to the blistering pace of his writing.

 

The friendship between Friedrisch and Cawl is a bit unconvincing. I think it would make more sense if they were explicitly a same-sex couple, but I suppose they kinda are.

[Marshal Rohr]

It did read pretty flat to me, but still better than anything by Kyme, Swallow, or Thorpe. I do think the tone of Haley's descriptions and dialogue tends not to vary across stories. I think this is due to the blistering pace of his writing.

 

The friendship between Friedrisch and Cawl is a bit unconvincing. I think it would make more sense if they were explicitly a same-sex couple, but I suppose they kinda are.

I immediately picked that up too. All the tropes are there like with Crowley and Aziraphale.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I definitely liked the book because all the lore built off his other work, though it's nowhere near Curze.

 

What I think I liked the most was how the aftermath of the tyranid attack presents them as a terrifying threat. Also, I love some well done cult stuff; both mentioned helped present the tyranids as incredibly insidious.

[rookie40K]

 

It did read pretty flat to me, but still better than anything by Kyme, Swallow, or Thorpe. I do think the tone of Haley's descriptions and dialogue tends not to vary across stories. I think this is due to the blistering pace of his writing.

 

The friendship between Friedrisch and Cawl is a bit unconvincing. I think it would make more sense if they were explicitly a same-sex couple, but I suppose they kinda are.

I immediately picked that up too. All the tropes are there like with Crowley and Aziraphale.

Marvel will expand on this.

[DarkChaplain]

Gotta admit, that got a chuckle out of this particular German sod. Well played.

[Lucerne]

I do feel for people that play Scythes and don't like Primaris though.

[Moonreaper666]

I do feel for people that play Scythes and don't like Primaris though.

At least the Scythes are still alive unlike the Black Consuls or the other 499 Chapters exterminated thanks to the Great Rift

 

So many more Chapters would be dead without Primaris (Lamenters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, etc). Even the Sons of Russ and Guilliman would be dead in a decade without fresh blood

[DarkChaplain]

Citation needed, as usual.

 

I'm halfway through and got to say that I'm a bit lukewarm on the unfolding present day plot. The flashbacks make the book so far, as do the lore nuggets, but it feels like very little has really happened so far in the modern day. It looks like things are speeding up after the group split up for various different objectives, though.

[Felix Antipodes]

 

I do feel for people that play Scythes and don't like Primaris though.

At least the Scythes are still alive unlike the Black Consuls or the other 499 Chapters exterminated thanks to the Great Rift

So many more Chapters would be dead without Primaris (Lamenters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, etc). Even the Sons of Russ and Guilliman would be dead in a decade without fresh blood

Picked the wrong Chapter to lead with, as the Black Consuls aren't extinct, having mentions and appearances in the recent codexes. Should gave used the Sky Sentinals, which are explicitly named as gone in the latest BRB.

[Jareddm]

Just finished it this morning.  A solid entry from Guy "The Fixer" Haley.  Once again, taking disparate or poorly realized lore and stitching it up into something far more reasonable.  I really enjoyed Cawl, both his personality and his backstory, and think he's got a lot of potential as a character.  He's got the feel and depth of any of the other big name 40k characters, and I get the sense that if he were introduced back in 2nd or 3rd edition, no one would've batted an eye.

 

I will echo that Haley's fight scenes are pretty forgettable, and while the Scythes of the Emperor plot really worked for me, I feel that's mainly because I've read all of the other Scythes stories and already knew who they were and why they were there (Poor Thracian.  He's dealt with so much and so many idiots).  Had I not already known all of that, I don't feel this book would've ingratiated me enough to their journey.

 

Something I noticed regarding Primus's origins

In the scene where they are looking into a parallel universe, Primus is not present.  Instead there are 20 marines in similar armor to his.  I interpret this as Primus was created to have all of the unique traits of all 20 geneseed lines.  He mentions how Cawl, "put too much into him," and it causes him endless pain.  I wonder then how it differs from the Grey Knight's geneseed, which is supposedly the "undifferentiated geneseed of the Emperor."

[Blindhamster]

the emperor doesnt have geneseed, that's just propaganda

[Jareddm]

the emperor doesnt have geneseed, that's just propaganda

Well yes, but the Grey Knights still have something that's different about them, and the common thread that keeps coming up is that their geneseed is before it was stratified into the Primarchs.  So not literally from the Emperor, but still something from before the structure of the primarchs was applied.  I'm proposing that Primus is of a similar nature, but after the templating of the primarchs gave each lineage their uniqueness.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

I do feel for people that play Scythes and don't like Primaris though.

At least the Scythes are still alive unlike the Black Consuls or the other 499 Chapters exterminated thanks to the Great Rift

So many more Chapters would be dead without Primaris (Lamenters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, etc). Even the Sons of Russ and Guilliman would be dead in a decade without fresh blood

Picked the wrong Chapter to lead with, as the Black Consuls aren't extinct, having mentions and appearances in the recent codexes. Should gave used the Sky Sentinals, which are explicitly named as gone in the latest BRB.

I thought the Death Guard (Lords of Silence) and the Word Bearers wiped them out?

 

There are only TWELVE non-Primaris in the Flesh Tearers and less than 200 in the Blood Angels. Honsou killed 300 Ultramarines so even the Smurfs are being replaced with Primaris

[b1soul]

The GK geneseed has the Emperor's Gift...so it has some extra genetic material of the Emperor, yes?

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

I do feel for people that play Scythes and don't like Primaris though.

At least the Scythes are still alive unlike the Black Consuls or the other 499 Chapters exterminated thanks to the Great Rift

So many more Chapters would be dead without Primaris (Lamenters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, etc). Even the Sons of Russ and Guilliman would be dead in a decade without fresh blood

Picked the wrong Chapter to lead with, as the Black Consuls aren't extinct, having mentions and appearances in the recent codexes. Should gave used the Sky Sentinals, which are explicitly named as gone in the latest BRB.

I thought the Death Guard (Lords of Silence) and the Word Bearers wiped them out?

 

There are only TWELVE non-Primaris in the Flesh Tearers and less than 200 in the Blood Angels. Honsou killed 300 Ultramarines so even the Smurfs are being replaced with Primaris

That's the white consuls lol.

 

I also forget if the chapter lost all their marines or homeworld/relics and geneseed in that book. Because cawl and the primaris stuff fixes the latter like what happened to the scythe.

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

 

 

 

I do feel for people that play Scythes and don't like Primaris though.

At least the Scythes are still alive unlike the Black Consuls or the other 499 Chapters exterminated thanks to the Great Rift

So many more Chapters would be dead without Primaris (Lamenters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, etc). Even the Sons of Russ and Guilliman would be dead in a decade without fresh blood

Picked the wrong Chapter to lead with, as the Black Consuls aren't extinct, having mentions and appearances in the recent codexes. Should gave used the Sky Sentinals, which are explicitly named as gone in the latest BRB.

I thought the Death Guard (Lords of Silence) and the Word Bearers wiped them out?

 

There are only TWELVE non-Primaris in the Flesh Tearers and less than 200 in the Blood Angels. Honsou killed 300 Ultramarines so even the Smurfs are being replaced with Primaris

That's the white consuls lol.

 

I also forget if the chapter lost all their marines or homeworld/relics and geneseed in that book. Because cawl and the primaris stuff fixes the latter like what happened to the scythe.

 

 

Regarding the "499" chapters lost or destroyed, you misinterpret the lack of proof as a proof in itself. Plus it is important to remember that while some chapters may choose to perform a last heroic action, a martyr, others are survivor who will see the lost of 90% of their chapter as a new trial.

 

To add, that in the fluff, many chapter that were believed to be destroyed, managed to survive. In this regard, the simple fact that a company worth of battle brother is enough for a chapter to survive. The Black Consuls, the Crimson Fists, the Scythes of the Emperor, the Lamenters, and many other chapter faced such trials and managed to survive, and in regard of the Blood Angels and successors, while part of the fluff depict them on the verge of extinction, it is important to note, that in regard of the 30K and the 40K fluff, the Blood Angels appears to breed pretty resilient chapters able to withstand heavy losses and still be able to rebuild once again at full strenght, in the Lore, the Blood Angels did it several times, the Lamenters as well, and the Pre-Sanguinius IX legion, also known as, the "Revenant Legion" was not only able to survive constant war, but succeded more than once to grow from it, thanks to their very resilient genetic patrimony.

 

Finally, thanks to the Great Rift Lore being full of holes, you can imagine whatever you desire for your chapter. =)