Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do feel for people that play Scythes and don't like Primaris though.

At least the Scythes are still alive unlike the Black Consuls or the other 499 Chapters exterminated thanks to the Great Rift

So many more Chapters would be dead without Primaris (Lamenters, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers, etc). Even the Sons of Russ and Guilliman would be dead in a decade without fresh blood

Picked the wrong Chapter to lead with, as the Black Consuls aren't extinct, having mentions and appearances in the recent codexes. Should gave used the Sky Sentinals, which are explicitly named as gone in the latest BRB.

I thought the Death Guard (Lords of Silence) and the Word Bearers wiped them out?

 

There are only TWELVE non-Primaris in the Flesh Tearers and less than 200 in the Blood Angels. Honsou killed 300 Ultramarines so even the Smurfs are being replaced with Primaris

That's the white consuls lol.

 

I also forget if the chapter lost all their marines or homeworld/relics and geneseed in that book. Because cawl and the primaris stuff fixes the latter like what happened to the scythe.

Regarding the "499" chapters lost or destroyed, you misinterpret the lack of proof as a proof in itself. Plus it is important to remember that while some chapters may choose to perform a last heroic action, a martyr, others are survivor who will see the lost of 90% of their chapter as a new trial.

 

To add, that in the fluff, many chapter that were believed to be destroyed, managed to survive. In this regard, the simple fact that a company worth of battle brother is enough for a chapter to survive. The Black Consuls, the Crimson Fists, the Scythes of the Emperor, the Lamenters, and many other chapter faced such trials and managed to survive, and in regard of the Blood Angels and successors, while part of the fluff depict them on the verge of extinction, it is important to note, that in regard of the 30K and the 40K fluff, the Blood Angels appears to breed pretty resilient chapters able to withstand heavy losses and still be able to rebuild once again at full strenght, in the Lore, the Blood Angels did it several times, the Lamenters as well, and the Pre-Sanguinius IX legion, also known as, the "Revenant Legion" was not only able to survive constant war, but succeded more than once to grow from it, thanks to their very resilient genetic patrimony.

 

Finally, thanks to the Great Rift Lore being full of holes, you can imagine whatever you desire for your chapter. =)

I thought these reinforced Chapters are 80-90% Primaris. I call bullcrap if they can recover that fast (100-200 years) while fighting the Great Rift without Primaris replacing the dead

 

No way Seth and 11 other Flesh Tearers can recruit 480 non-Primaris without fighting

[Marshal Rohr]

90%+ accepted Primaris. Not all are 90%+ are Primaris. Some stopped making oldmarines. Some didn’t. Edited October 6, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[b1soul]

90% accepted Primaris could mean they accepted small detachments of Primaris or simply accepted the gift of Primaris gene-seed (unknown how many Primaris they go on to make)

[Frater Antodeniel]

And third option, some chapter may have chose that the Primaris elevation is only for those deemed worthy of it, and so made it a final trial for veteran battle brothers, via the Rubicon concept, marking a clear distinction in the chapter between regular battle brother and veterans.

 

Regarding the chapters capability to rebuild, depending of the stability of their gene-seed and the quality of the recruitment pool available to them, a chapter could rebuild very fast or very slow.

 

For example, regarding the Blood Angels, the gene-seed is strong enough so that there appears to be little rejection of the transformation process, plus the process is very fast for the Blood Angels with a year for a full transformation when it take severals for other Legion/chapters, but the instability of it also means that many neophytes will emerge from the process insane, and so will have to be elliminated.

 

Another example that i have some knowledge of, is the Raven Guard, whose gene-seed instability means that they have to be very carefull when using them to creates the space marine organs and choose their recruits wisely meaning that they have in the end a small recruitment pool. The trials are harder, so fewer recruits survive than in other chapters, plus it take longer for the chapter to recruit. To this you must add the many years long training, growth via the implementation step by step of the space marine organs, and the final stage that will be the elevation within the 10th company of scouts, which will also take years before the scouts are deemed to be elevated to the rank of battle brother.

 

Between the Blood Angels fastest process and the Raven Guard slowest process, i think that you can put inbetween all other Legions/chapters.^^

[Blindhamster]

Good story, interesting lore reveals and I do think this story is one that people that didnt like cawl should read as it makes the character far more logical.

[Matcap86]

Just finished it, liked the development of Cawl's character and the flashbacks throughout. Appreciated the worldbuilding done concerning the primaris project and Guilliman and Cawl's relationship. Also liked the Sotha and scythes plotline. Ending was a bit lacking for me though:

It suddenly went very action-hero mode including monologuing baddie who gets outwitted by the hero.

 

7 out of 10 for me.

 

Edit to prevent any spoilers.

Edited October 8, 2019 by matcap86

[Ishagu]

I'm half way through the book - it's fascinating!

 

I finished Lords of Silence just before this - that felt like a surreal fantasy in space.

 

This book was instead a Hard Sci-fi! I'm all over it. Ancient technologies, forbidden knowledge, the genius of Cawl, etc.

 

Fantastic.

 

Edit:

 

I'm farther in into the book now. I'm enjoying Cawl's character even more. One of the most refreshing individuals in the setting.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Ishagu

[Knockagh]

I'm half way through the book - it's fascinating!

 

I finished Lords of Silence just before this - that felt like a surreal fantasy in space.

 

This book was instead a Hard Sci-fi! I'm all over it. Ancient technologies, forbidden knowledge, the genius of Cawl, etc.

 

Fantastic.

 

Edit:

 

I'm farther in into the book now. I'm enjoying Cawl's character even more. One of the most refreshing individuals in the setting.

I’m with you on Cawl. Brilliant character, I would never of thought Haley would be able to inject so much personality into a mechanicus character and for it to work so well.

Only a half dozen chapters in but great read so far.

[DarkChaplain]

Haley has a history of tackling artificial beings in his works; from Death of Integrity to his original works (Richards & Klein, Crash and Champion of Mars), he's written logic engines with character before. His range is pretty amazing all things considered.

[Medjugorje]

 

I'm half way through the book - it's fascinating!

 

I finished Lords of Silence just before this - that felt like a surreal fantasy in space.

 

This book was instead a Hard Sci-fi! I'm all over it. Ancient technologies, forbidden knowledge, the genius of Cawl, etc.

 

Fantastic.

 

Edit:

 

I'm farther in into the book now. I'm enjoying Cawl's character even more. One of the most refreshing individuals in the setting.

I’m with you on Cawl. Brilliant character, I would never of thought Haley would be able to inject so much personality into a mechanicus character and for it to work so well.

Only a half dozen chapters in but great read so far.

 

 

should read Dante - its amazing. Especially his character.

 

[Ishagu]

Just finished the Great Work. One of the best 40k novels, in my opinion. It feel like it matters, it's super insightful, it's not just some dull pyrrhic victory in some big, repetitive war.

 

Cawl is an incredible character; funny, charismatic, fascinating. There are very entertaining conversations in the book between various characters, the ending is satisfying and there are some very interesting events that unfold. This is a must read, and a great side-sequel to the Dark Imperium/Haley series of books.

 

PS: Guy Haley is now the Alpha and the Omega of 40k authors lol

Edited October 9, 2019 by Ishagu

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

I'm half way through the book - it's fascinating!

 

I finished Lords of Silence just before this - that felt like a surreal fantasy in space.

 

This book was instead a Hard Sci-fi! I'm all over it. Ancient technologies, forbidden knowledge, the genius of Cawl, etc.

 

Fantastic.

 

Edit:

 

I'm farther in into the book now. I'm enjoying Cawl's character even more. One of the most refreshing individuals in the setting.

I’m with you on Cawl. Brilliant character, I would never of thought Haley would be able to inject so much personality into a mechanicus character and for it to work so well.

Only a half dozen chapters in but great read so far.

should read Dante - its amazing. Especially his character.

Dante almost instantly became one of my favourite 40k novels. Obviously I'm biased. But compare it to the horus heresy dark angel novel which broadly follows the same structure of mostly pre space marine lead characters and it's like night and day. Dante really made me want to read more from the pre space marine era and during the transition era for its lead character.

 

Devastation of baal was also very good and the revelation of what was possible at the end makes me hope the third book will cover the boy with the brain damage as it's fixed and he becomes a primaris marine.

 

 

Similarly, this book really helped expand cawl into a legitimately interesting character, acknowledging and even playing with some of the negative feedback from the community about him. It also allowed felix to be expanded which I liked a lot too, he seemed to have potential in dark imperium so the additional detail for him was great.

 

The only sub plot I was less enthused about was the scythes one, but only because I felt like I was lacking some info on the character (if I understand it correctly, it was a continuation from a short or something?)

[Jareddm]

 

The only sub plot I was less enthused about was the scythes one, but only because I felt like I was lacking some info on the character (if I understand it correctly, it was a continuation from a short or something?)

 

 

Eight short stories, an audiodrama, and a novel.

[Blindhamster]

This would be why it didnt resonate, that's a lot of backstory I was missing!

[Jareddm]

Yep.  Captain Thracian, Forgemaster Sebastion, and the mysterious Hadrios all had a decent amount to them.  The genestealer cult also goes a long way to explaining what was considered one of the most incompetent tactical decisions in 40k.  Chapter Master Thorcyra deciding to resettle the Scythes on the world of Miral...which was still directly in the path of Hivefleet Kraken.

[aa.logan]

I listened, rather than read.

 

Because I’m shallow- the book’s artwork is gorgeous; I love the image of Cawl leading a Sythe through the Tyranid-infested ruins of Sotha, and makes a nice change from the usual duel poses that feature on most books. But the text of the title looks super cheap and diminishes the lovely picture- not something I usually expect from BL.

 

I’m not sure if I’m leading with the aesthetics for a book that I never actually read says a lot about the contents or not.

 

I did enjoy the book; the non-linear nature of the narrative helps to establish the true nature of the Pharos in a really satisfying way, and the way it presents the way that the beacon effects those within it’s power is nicely creepy. Cawl is an interesting, fun character who acts as a nice counterpoint to the typically staid Ultramarine lead. The Sythes, whilst lacking much of a chapter culture are unique, the fatalism of the surviving original intake coupled with the lore revelations about them makes them a compelling and pretty unique chapter. Cawl’s Role in the creation of the Primaris marines and how he spend his time since his ‘first’ appearance in the Heresy is explored but not unduly. There is a good level of insight into Xenos mindsets, though nothing quite as alien as the PoV Lictor in the Devastation of Baal. Post-Roft life isn’t really touched upon, bar the existence of Primaris, though that may be me picking holes.

 

While I might disagree with the earlier descriptions of the book as ‘Hard Sci-Fi’, it certainly has a slightly different feel from most 40k novels; towards the end it gets ridiculously silly and gloriously camp- the main villain’s scenery-chewing and grandstanding as well as Cawl’s irrational refusal to divulge even a single aspect of his plan to any of his allies suit a tale of millennia-old mad scientist and his genetically modified ‘children’, and help the book really feel quite different.

 

All of that said, I don’t think that much of the book, beyond the big plot advancements/fluff reveals or explanations will live with me; it is really all about adding depth and narrative to a somewhat underdeveloped part of the setting rather than using the setting to tell a story. It is really quite good at what it is intended to do though.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, it’s definitely not hard sci-fi just because it talks about quantum entanglement. It presented real scientific theories and principles through the 40k ignorance and that was extremely well done.

[MegaVolt87]

Are Scythes of the Emperor all primaris these days or mixed/ even exist? Could someone put up the Scythes stuff in spoiler tags? I thought they got wiped with the survivors as renegades. 

[Apothecary Vaddon]

My understanding is that the last of the old-type died on the return to Sotha with Cawl and all the Chapter is now comprised of Primaris Marines. Yes, the 'survivors' of the Miral/Sotha disaster were 'renegades' in the sense that they disobeyed their orders but it appears that from an Imperial perspective they weren't, if I'm not missing anything.

[Ishagu]

Sorry, let me explain what I meant by hard sci-fi, perhaps I used the term wrong.

 

The story was more like a Mass Effect plot than the typical 40k. There were no Daemons, weird magical creatures, etc. It was more about technology, science, etc. Actually very refreshing in terms of a 40k story, and I really enjoyed the book as a result.

 

It's great that this story can exist in the same universe as Lords of Silence, for example.

[Kelborn]

That's why I love Warhammer (both versions) so much.

Regardless of what you prefer personally, there's something for you to play with. :D

[StrangerOrders]

Just finished this one, gotta say that it is well named because Haley did great work on it.

 

I personally like both facets of 40k and get cheesed off when one gets completely excluded. I personally think C'tan and Necrons do plenty of weird and almost mystical stuff so I was happy hear.

 

My one gripe is that the Primaris marines got their usual paragraphs of tone-breaking lengths about why they are better at everything than oldmarines. My entire draw with Astartes is how ancient and ornate they feel and the Primaris marines are dull to me, lacking even the cool look of pre-Primarch Legions. I also don't know what to make of Felix, he keeps popping up but suffers from having all the personality of a brick compared to the dynamics casts he is surrounded by.

 

But over all it was a fantastic book and helped really make Cawl 'pop' while really making him credible. I liked that he has genuine faith and is defensive of it to both others in the Cult and the... other characters who try to mock him for it. 

[b1soul]

Primaris have more of a modern, tactical aesthetic and lack the ornateness and ritual aspect of oldmarines, but I think oldmarines are here to stay for quite a while (they're simply too iconic to eliminate in the short-term). Overall, I feel that Primaris add diversity to GW's model portfolio and provide BL with interesting story-telling opportunities.They are the Secondborn (a newer design) but many of the actual individuals were inducted during the Scouring.

[StrangerOrders]

Primaris have more of a modern, tactical aesthetic and lack the ornateness and ritual aspect of oldmarines, but I think oldmarines are here to stay for quite a while (they're simply too iconic to eliminate in the short-term). Overall, I feel that Primaris add diversity to GW's model portfolio and provide BL with interesting story-telling opportunities.They are the Secondborn (a newer design) but many of the actual individuals were inducted during the Scouring.

That would be fine, but the obligatory 'infinitely superior to the old model' paragraphs get really tiresome after a few books.

 

I also just dislike their blandness across gene-lines even with the upgrade sets. To use 30k as an example, the kits and looks of each Legion are stuffed with identity and flavour. Primaris marines are so dull-looking that they seem infectious.

 

Compare them with 30k Raven Guard for example, both have a very tactical look but one has alot of character and distinctness to their design whereas the other looks like something out of a tabletop halo game.  

 

I sort of think they take away tbh, because they more or less exist to invalidate oldmarines in both the lore and the tabletop. Which is a shame for those of us that love oldmarines and their aesthetic as Primaris look alien to the 'warrior' feel. 

 

I am also not crazy about their utter lack of customizability but that is a purely tabletop discussion since the great Work did have them begin to grasp the concept of bling.

[b1soul]

You can stick with oldmarines on the table top and ignore Primaris. If you're bothered by their existence, well...my condolences. I personally think you'd have a more valid complaint if Primaris were truly replacing oldmarines, but they seem more like an add-on than anything else.

 

In the lore, I think it just depends on which authour handles Primaris characters. Plenty of mediocre BL stories about bland, uninteresting oldmarines out there. It's by no means limited to Primaris. If one day, oldmarines go extinct and their aesthetic is completely replaced by tacti-cool Primaris, I would view that as a major loss to 40K. If some Primaris adopt the aesthetic of their Firstborn brothers and we simply get Primaris assault marines, terminators with oath parchments or what have you...that doesn't make a lick of difference in the setting IMO.