Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work

[Blindhamster]

Bit derailing but I imagine we will see primaris gradually game more baroque elements to their visuals as their lore has more cross the Rubicon and they pick up more of the modern day chapters traits and practices.

 

30k models - there really isn't anything more unique than there is for 40k primaris unless you mean the legion specific units, which isn't a fair comparison as that isn't a thing in 40k (possibly ever, due to GW needing to support a magnitude more factions).

 

 

Anyway, I thought this book did a decent job of fleshing out felix more, I didnt dislike him before but I liked him a lot more here, i cant understand how a marine that is struggling internally with some of the things he is, can be called bland except for the (possibly reasonable) bias of someone who just doesnt like primaris at all.

 

The other marines (basically all of them except thracian, sebastian, alpha primus and the librarian) had less personality.

 

 

Anyway, the book certainly seems to be setting up some fairly major plot developments. I'm really liking the haleyverse

[Ishagu]

Felix is the straight man of the story, and he offsets the eccentric Cawl very well. There is a great dynamic between them.

 

He's certainly not boring, the insight into his childhood was very interesting, and he has real struggles in his past that he had to overcome. Just because he's not some secretive, brooding man or overly angry doesn't mean he's not a subtly layered character.

 

As for the Primaris v Old Marine discussion. There wasn't much of that in this book, certainly not something that was brought up time and again. And the model lines? We can't really compare Primaris to classic or Heresy Marines - these other ranges have been around for much longer. Primaris have only actually had two waves of full releases thus far.

[b1soul]

There seems to be quite a bit of chapter leadership crossing the Rubicon, and Primaris additions seem to have a healthy respect for oldmarine veterans and their culture. I expect long-term integration to involve at least some Primaris adopting customs and aesthetics of oldmarines.

[Marshal Rohr]

That's not relevant to the book at all. 

[Izlude]

Just finished this one, took a little longer than expected, mostly was reading in chunks to digest the book. Much like how Haley fixed the Beast Arise series with the last book, Dark Imperium for all the Primaris fluff, Titandeath, etc I think he accomplished what was intended with this book:

 

1. Cawl: His "origin" was very well done. I loved the back story with his buddy Fred. I thought it gave Cawl a more human aspect and there was clearly a power differential with their abilities which is why it was believable since Fred (sorry forgot to spell his name so he will be known as Fred to me) could never be a threat to Cawl in terms of surpassing his abilities. He was sort of like a lackey in some ways. The back story with the director was also great and I enjoyed the most, esp how it ends...payback is a biatch...

 

2. Felix: As much as I love UMs, I thought his character in the Dark Imperium series thus far was boring and so plain Jane, but this books does alot to give him more depth and background esp as it relates to Cawl. I thought the Primaris Alpha was fine and certainly not a "Mary Sue" type character to me. Sheds some light on him but enough to keep you guessing. 

 

3. Scythes story: I like where this went and enjoyed the ending, a nice redemption type arc. To be honest I know very little of them so I am sure I would have appreciated it more if I read more of their background. I only read Pharos so got some of the references which was nice to have but not surprising since Haley wrote that one as well.

 

Overall definitely a solid read which sheds much on this setting in a believable manner. The prose is good and as usual Haley always blows my mind how he can be so productive and put out books that range from excellent to quite good and to me he seems to "fix" issues.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Izlude

[aa.logan]

For all I said I didn’t think I was going to reflect on this book for much but the lore reveals, I can’t stop thinking about the passage where Felix is reflecting on what he got from becoming a marine and why he wanted to be accepted into the Legion. Power? Glory? Duty? These abstract concepts are rarely delved into, and for him to address them while acknowledging that he was still a child when he made his ‘choices’ is significant

[b1soul]

Back in the day, marines couldn't even remember who they had once been before ascension. This part of the lore seems to have been largely discarded in recent years, with very old marines like Dante being an exception.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It seems to depend on the Chapter. The Carcharadons definitely lose their recollections of their prior life, I think the Black Templars do too, the Grey Knights have it scoured from them, and the Emperors Spears still have strong links to their birth tribes.

The Carcharadon novels though featured a new Tactical Marine who had already forgotten a lot about his previous life, barring a few strong memories.

[aa.logan]

It’s not so much that he remembered, though it’s worth noting that Felix is older even than the ‘very old’ Dante, it’s more that his motivations for wanting to join the Ultramarines in the first place are questioned. I’ve read so many books about young aspirants, and thinking about it, they’ve never really satisfactorily looked at why they’re doing what they’re doing.

 

The odd one talks about ‘great honour’ at being selected, there are suggestions at the harshness of death-world life in others but this is the first that I can recall considering wider motives. The residents of Ultramar prior to the Heresy maybe lived very different lives to the standard inhabitant of any other chapter’s recruitment world in 40k, so young Felix’s motivations probably differ from those of a Fenrisian at any point in history or Necromundan post-Rift, but in each case the decision to effectively die and leave everything they know behind is taken by what is physically if not emotionally a prepubescent boy. The Great Work, if only for a paragraph or two, questions these motives.

 

(Thinking further about this, it mirrors the revelations about young Cawl in a neat and interesting way. Guy Hayley- I owe you way more credit for this book than I originally gave you...)

[DarkChaplain]

The process of Felix' induction was very drastically different from what it is in the present day, or even the past millennium. And a lot / most of his recollections are directly related to the book's major plot device, the Pharos.

Heck, even Cawl remembers stuff that was clearly wiped from his memory more than once, because of how the thing works.

 

It's not so much that authors forgot that Space Marines lose their memories, but that the examples we had were indoctrinated in a different, even experimental way over the course of a lot of time, and that their subconscious is brought back through nefarious means. Everybody remembers on Sotha, even things they should not be able to recall.

[aa.logan]

The process of Felix' induction was very drastically different from what it is in the present day, or even the past millennium. And a lot / most of his recollections are directly related to the book's major plot device, the Pharos.

Heck, even Cawl remembers stuff that was clearly wiped from his memory more than once, because of how the thing works.

 

It's not so much that authors forgot that Space Marines lose their memories, but that the examples we had were indoctrinated in a different, even experimental way over the course of a lot of time, and that their subconscious is brought back through nefarious means. Everybody remembers on Sotha, even things they should not be able to recall.

All true, but the instances of which we have seen aspirants before their transitions, of which there are many, go into their motivations in way less emotional depth than even this book’s brief glimpses. The reasons for joining are never usually questioned bar the occasional parent not wanting to lose their son.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Because for most Marine planets, aspiring to join is either just the "done thing", or in cases like the Space Wolves it's not a choice, but rather they pick you. It's not exactly like a job application, with a "so, tell me, why do you want to become a Blood Angel". Instead, its that they've been raised on a world where God is literally real, and you have an opportunity to literally become one of His angels. Most Marine recruitment worlds are basically sociologically designed to produce as many aspirants as possible.

So yeah, it's not that all aspirants have a deep-seated drive to see the wrongs of the galaxy made right, or that "well, I remember back on Chogoris when I saw a young boy picked on and beaten by bigger kids, and I swore to never let an innocent get trodden on like that again, and made a promise that I would become a White Scar to make that possible". It's that the Astartes are actual religious figures to them, which they have an opportunity to become.

[aa.logan]

Again, I agree with all of the above points, especially the fact that Ultramar during the Crusade is an exception.

 

Marine recruitment is a fascinating area to me- so often it seems like a wasteful, counter-intuitive process (and therefore so very, very apt for the Imperium). What with the reflections in this, Spear of the Emperor

suspicion from the home world natives if not outright hostility

and the Solar War

flashbacks to Abaddon musing on why to join the then-Luna Wolves

we’re seeing a more nuanced take than the default ‘sky Gods good. Me want join Sky Gods’, which still certainly has its place.

 

A Kafkaesque Warhammer Horror story about a recruit gradually realising what transcending actually means and then waking up with a black carapace and a heart full of regret is both highly unlikely to ever be commissioned but also potentially the greatest ever 40k story...

[Frater Antodeniel]

Regarding the Space Marines memories of their past lifes, it depend of each individuals. Some remembers, some do not, and others even end with just flashback of their previous live.

 

Two examples :

 

In "Dante", there is many passage were the Space Marines memory is explored. Dante remember pretty clearly his past life right after his Transformation, while his six hundred years old "art teacher" clearly say, "I do not remember remembering", and on another note, you have a Thousand Years old chapter master Dante who (i don't remember if its in Dante or Devastation of Baal^^) clearly show signs of having forgot most of the memories of his old life, even some of the most "recent ones", depressing on the fact that he even forgot a lot of his battle brothers of old.

 

Another example to be found in "Red Tithe" and "Outer Dark" are, in the first (if i remember correctly), the vision experienced by the company captain of his old life and of himself playing alongside his mother, when on the second, you have the Librarian stating that he remember his past life before his transformation.

[b1soul]

Dante is like 1600 years old

[DarkChaplain]

And Felix is technically older by about 8500 years, by virtue of being one of the first Primaris aspirants taken in, and then having been put on ice for a couple of millennia while Cawl did his thing. The gene-tech is purer than most pre-Gathering Storm Astartes had access to, the process of induction was different and much more drawn out, and so forth. Memory purges are more of a post-Heresy thing.

[Blindhamster]

And Felix is technically older by about 8500 years, by virtue of being one of the first Primaris aspirants taken in, and then having been put on ice for a couple of millennia while Cawl did his thing. The gene-tech is purer than most pre-Gathering Storm Astartes had access to, the process of induction was different and much more drawn out, and so forth. Memory purges are more of a post-Heresy thing.

 

Not entirely accurate. He is placed in time by that is different by that much, but he was in stasis for basically all of it, he's been awake for maybe a couple hundred years since primaris were revealed and lets be generous and say he's spend a couple hundred more over the past 10k years awake just through the periods not in stasis for testing and implantation and the rest of it. He's not older, he's from a different time. They're quite different things as in stasis presumably cells aren't degrading, you aren't making new memories etc.

[DarkChaplain]

True, maybe my phrasing was inaccurate. Subjectively, he's clearly Dante's junior. In objective time, he's ancient, though time did not pass for him. It's kind of like with Traitors in the eye, where time passes quite differently - just that for them, it's warp shenanigans diluting and advancing time at different paces, while Felix and co were put in the freezer. The question then becomes whether Abaddon or Khârn should be considered subjectively older than Dante, because objectively they clearly are. Does Ahriman have 1600 years under his belt? Hard to tell, though it'd be difficult to state that Dante is their senior. And then you have Bjorn, who spends most of his time in the fridge too.

 

I'm nearly done with the novel now. The Scythes plotline seems wrapped up, though not having read Laurie's omnibus, some things really aren't clear to me about it. Gotta wiki it, I guess. Finally getting to the crux of the Pharos, though.

[Knockagh]

Guy Haley you beautiful man. What a fabulous book from him.

This had potential to be awful. The Cawl and Primaris storyline has felt awkward since it came out but Guy has saved the day putting bold character into the main man himself. Cawl himself shines throughout the book, I would say however it has made Cawl very much a Haley only character it would be incredibly difficult for another author to work with him now he is so unique. I can’t wait to see were this is going. Cawl probably has so much potential GW will have to kill him off at some stage or he could do something crazy like bring back the emperor which I’m sure is being hinted at with him interfacing with a demigod through a machine construct? Maybe not but some of the parallels are there.

I needed some good fiction in my life right now and Guy has delivered, if your out there Guy my hat is off, well done.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The cool thing with cawl is how he admittedly tinkers with his personality to best suit his needs in an interaction. So while he has a very defined personality in the Great Work, its purpose was to aid Felix; even a jarringly different personality can still make perfect sense with him.

[Ishagu]

Who would have imagined that Cawl could be so entertaining, that's what I took away from the book. His attitude, outlook and opinions are so staggeringly different from the typical Imperium dogma. He truly feels like a character from the more enlightened past of mankind. I hope we see him more in future novels.

[Ascanius]

One thing I personally really liked was the way Haley contrasted Belisarius Cawl's personality in the Heresy-era sections, which is more or less identical to the way he wrote Cawl in Wolfsbane for obvious reasons, with his personality in the "present".

[b1soul]

Haley could work on his dialogue though

[DarkChaplain]

His dialogue was one of the most entertaining parts of the book.

[Knockagh]

I think b1 was joking. The dialogue was undoubtedly the most engaging element of an excellent book. I can’t remember when I last found a character in 40k with such originality.