LoS blocking terrain?

[Redcomet]

 

Yeah, the game already has too many hit modifiers in it. We don’t need more :(

 

Nah terrain should absolutely cause minuses to hit, it's what makes the city rules so much more effective than vanilla. Bonuses to armor saves are useless to some factions and don't actually help increase a model's survival. Nor make sense seeing as how terrain should prevent you from being hit. Kill Team's ruleset really ought to be ported over to normal 40k.

Too many negative to hit modifiers will make medium to low bs armies basically un playable.

[Ishagu]

Too often people think about thematic rules ahead of their actual functionality in the game...

[Panzer]

 

Bring back area terrain rules!

 

LoS drawn trough it (any distance) = blocked

LoS drawn in to it over 4" = blocked

LoS drawn in to it under 4" or over linar terrain at least half model height = -1 to hit

LoS drawn to linar terrain at least half model height (all models in target unit in B2B with it = -2 to hit

Congratulations, you've just made Raven Guard and Eldar broken. Imperial Guard literally won't be able to target some units.

 

The terrain rules are actually serviceable at the moment, people just need to understand that the terrain they play with is as important as the army they run. It's easy to convert GW ruins to have LOS blocking. It's also easy to find lots of LOS blocking 3rd party kits.

 

 

Something like changing terrain rules to such a degree is obviously a huge change that requires existing Codex rules to be adjusted as well. 

[Volt]

 

 

Yeah, the game already has too many hit modifiers in it. We don’t need more

Nah terrain should absolutely cause minuses to hit, it's what makes the city rules so much more effective than vanilla. Bonuses to armor saves are useless to some factions and don't actually help increase a model's survival. Nor make sense seeing as how terrain should prevent you from being hit. Kill Team's ruleset really ought to be ported over to normal 40k.

Too many negative to hit modifiers will make medium to low bs armies basically un playable.

 

No, because 6's always hit. If cover becomes a problem for you, just bring more flamers or engage them in melee.

[Slasher956]

 

Bring back area terrain rules!

LoS drawn trough it (any distance) = blocked

LoS drawn in to it over 4" = blocked

LoS drawn in to it under 4" or over linar terrain at least half model height = -1 to hit

LoS drawn to linar terrain at least half model height (all models in target unit in B2B with it = -2 to hit

Congratulations, you've just made Raven Guard and Eldar broken. Imperial Guard literally won't be able to target some units.

The terrain rules are actually serviceable at the moment, people just need to understand that the terrain they play with is as important as the army they run. It's easy to convert GW ruins to have LOS blocking. It's also easy to find lots of LOS blocking 3rd party kits.

Because if you changed the core rules you’d leave all the other rules alone??

 

You notice I didn’t say anything about stacking...(conceal used to just give cover, so rewturn it to that with cover taking the best mod only)

[Interrogator Stobz]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the game already has too many hit modifiers in it. We don’t need more

Nah terrain should absolutely cause minuses to hit, it's what makes the city rules so much more effective than vanilla. Bonuses to armor saves are useless to some factions and don't actually help increase a model's survival. Nor make sense seeing as how terrain should prevent you from being hit. Kill Team's ruleset really ought to be ported over to normal 40k.

Too many negative to hit modifiers will make medium to low bs armies basically un playable.

No, because 6's always hit. If cover becomes a problem for you, just bring more flamers or engage them in melee.

Everyone is always banging on about not enough CC.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Yeah, the game already has too many hit modifiers in it. We don’t need more

Nah terrain should absolutely cause minuses to hit, it's what makes the city rules so much more effective than vanilla. Bonuses to armor saves are useless to some factions and don't actually help increase a model's survival. Nor make sense seeing as how terrain should prevent you from being hit. Kill Team's ruleset really ought to be ported over to normal 40k.

Too many negative to hit modifiers will make medium to low bs armies basically un playable.

 

No, because 6's always hit. If cover becomes a problem for you, just bring more flamers or engage them in melee.

 

 

6s always hit only if you are playing Orks and in Kill Team (which should then obviously be taken over as well), but otherwise I agree. Shooting doesn't become the go-to choice to wipe enemy armies anymore? How about melee?

[Ishagu]

Melee is pretty decent last time I checked. Orks and GSC perform pretty darn well.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the game already has too many hit modifiers in it. We don’t need more

Nah terrain should absolutely cause minuses to hit, it's what makes the city rules so much more effective than vanilla. Bonuses to armor saves are useless to some factions and don't actually help increase a model's survival. Nor make sense seeing as how terrain should prevent you from being hit. Kill Team's ruleset really ought to be ported over to normal 40k.

Too many negative to hit modifiers will make medium to low bs armies basically un playable.

No, because 6's always hit. If cover becomes a problem for you, just bring more flamers or engage them in melee.

6s don’t auto hit for anyone but Orks. But even if if they did, that’s not a reasonable solution to suggest to armies that rely on shooting.

 

Now do I agree cover needs improving? Yes. Do I agree LoS rules need improving? Yes. Do I think there needs to be more CC? Yes. Do I think there needs to be more incentives to positioning? Yes.

 

But do I want to accomplish any of those things with yet more hit modifiers in the game? Absolutely not!

[Volt]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the game already has too many hit modifiers in it. We don’t need more

Nah terrain should absolutely cause minuses to hit, it's what makes the city rules so much more effective than vanilla. Bonuses to armor saves are useless to some factions and don't actually help increase a model's survival. Nor make sense seeing as how terrain should prevent you from being hit. Kill Team's ruleset really ought to be ported over to normal 40k.

Too many negative to hit modifiers will make medium to low bs armies basically un playable.

No, because 6's always hit. If cover becomes a problem for you, just bring more flamers or engage them in melee.

6s don’t auto hit for anyone but Orks. But even if if they did, that’s not a reasonable solution to suggest to armies that rely on shooting.

 

Now do I agree cover needs improving? Yes. Do I agree LoS rules need improving? Yes. Do I think there needs to be more CC? Yes. Do I think there needs to be more incentives to positioning? Yes.

 

But do I want to accomplish any of those things with yet more hit modifiers in the game? Absolutely not!

 

Except as long as 6's hit, there being more modifiers is perfectly fine. The problem is that you shouldn't treat an army like trying to shove a square into a circle and expecting it to work, lists need to be tailored to specific enemies if they're stacking modifiers so you can just smoke them out with flamers.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I think a stacking cover save is easier to balance than modifying to hit rolls.

 

It would make "ignores cover" armies like Iron Warriors very potent, but I am not convinced game breakingly so.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the game already has too many hit modifiers in it. We don’t need more

Nah terrain should absolutely cause minuses to hit, it's what makes the city rules so much more effective than vanilla. Bonuses to armor saves are useless to some factions and don't actually help increase a model's survival. Nor make sense seeing as how terrain should prevent you from being hit. Kill Team's ruleset really ought to be ported over to normal 40k.

Too many negative to hit modifiers will make medium to low bs armies basically un playable.

No, because 6's always hit. If cover becomes a problem for you, just bring more flamers or engage them in melee.

6s don’t auto hit for anyone but Orks. But even if if they did, that’s not a reasonable solution to suggest to armies that rely on shooting.

 

Now do I agree cover needs improving? Yes. Do I agree LoS rules need improving? Yes. Do I think there needs to be more CC? Yes. Do I think there needs to be more incentives to positioning? Yes.

 

But do I want to accomplish any of those things with yet more hit modifiers in the game? Absolutely not!

Except as long as 6's hit, there being more modifiers is perfectly fine. The problem is that you shouldn't treat an army like trying to shove a square into a circle and expecting it to work, lists need to be tailored to specific enemies if they're stacking modifiers so you can just smoke them out with flamers.

No. I'm sorry but you're not being reasonable right now. BS Modifier stacking is literally one of the worst things in the game right now and you want more of it.

 

It's clear that you have some sort of bias or agenda to benefit something that you're interested in.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the game already has too many hit modifiers in it. We don’t need more

Nah terrain should absolutely cause minuses to hit, it's what makes the city rules so much more effective than vanilla. Bonuses to armor saves are useless to some factions and don't actually help increase a model's survival. Nor make sense seeing as how terrain should prevent you from being hit. Kill Team's ruleset really ought to be ported over to normal 40k.

Too many negative to hit modifiers will make medium to low bs armies basically un playable.

No, because 6's always hit. If cover becomes a problem for you, just bring more flamers or engage them in melee.

6s don’t auto hit for anyone but Orks. But even if if they did, that’s not a reasonable solution to suggest to armies that rely on shooting.

 

Now do I agree cover needs improving? Yes. Do I agree LoS rules need improving? Yes. Do I think there needs to be more CC? Yes. Do I think there needs to be more incentives to positioning? Yes.

 

But do I want to accomplish any of those things with yet more hit modifiers in the game? Absolutely not!

Except as long as 6's hit, there being more modifiers is perfectly fine. The problem is that you shouldn't treat an army like trying to shove a square into a circle and expecting it to work, lists need to be tailored to specific enemies if they're stacking modifiers so you can just smoke them out with flamers.

That’s exactly the opposite of what should happen. Every army should be able to put together a balanced, all-comers list that has a reasonable chance against other armies. Sure, it’ll struggle against some builds but it shouldn’t be a foregone conclusion.

 

If the only way to beat certain armies is by extreme list tailoring then that army is overpowered and the balance mechanisms of the game have failed.

 

Stacking hit modifiers one of the worst parts of the game. We don’t need more of them.

[Closet Skeleton]

Unkillable units is one of the worst problems in the game but so is having your whole army shot to pieces at long range because your opponent cherry picked his army to do that one thing very well.

[MARK0SIAN]

Unkillable units is one of the worst problems in the game but so is having your whole army shot to pieces at long range because your opponent cherry picked his army to do that one thing very well.

I quite agree, but stacking hit modifiers is basically the same as Invisibility (in that some armies literally cannot hit a unit) which was such a problem in 7th that Age of Darkness got rid of it as a rule.

 

I definitely agree cover needs improving and long range shooting needs a counter but I don’t want it to be more hit modifiers.

[Ishagu]

Los blocking terrain is indeed very important, but so are regular ruins.

 

I can't stress enough how important it is for players to ensure the rabble has sufficient terrain. I often see images or videos of games and the terrain used is woefully inadequate.

 

Terrain can be expensive but it's mandatory. Gamemat.eu do complete, painted sets that make for a good start.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I agree that stacking can be a problem, but the cover mods to hit makes the most sense.
The factions that currently get mods to hit should have a different mechanism to reflect their sneakiness, that is where and when stacking becomes problematic. Something like count as in cover when not, once in cover no extra bonus.
And differentiating soft and hard cover would be good, with hard cover helping saves, soft cover not so much.

+++ But all this is merely one personal opinion; to avoid doubt MY MOD HAT IS NOW ON, please respect one another's opinions no matter how you feel about the differences, do not get ad hominem at all.+++

[Ishagu]

https://www.gamemat.eu/en/terrain/mdf-colored-terrain/city-of-steel.html

 

This is a good terrain set, fully painted.

[Panzer]

I think what people are missing here when comparing such terrain rules to eldar or invisibility is that terrain is available for everyone just the same but not everyone plays eldar or could build an invisible deathstar.

[Closet Skeleton]

If I was adding a general -1 to hit at over half range or similar than Alaitoc and Raven Guard would change to always count as being at long range when outside 12" and maybe add a generic speed boost for units that move over 16" and don't charge to replace supersonic.

 

Stacking defences in general is bad, not just to hit penalties. I don't think anything with a easily available -2 to hit should have options for a high wound count, invulnerable or feel no pain save; if its hard to hit in the first place then every hit should hurt. I'd be fine with T4 5+ save stuff with -2s to hit them. Its having toughness and armour saves being irrelevant and invulerable saves, feel no pain and to hit penalties being the good stuff that's annoying for many armies.

[Interrogator Stobz]

If cover gave a -1 or -2 to hit and factions didn't get any extra mods, only completely useless shooters would be out of luck. If your natural BS is 5+ then you're not a shooter.

It's very easy when designing an alternative ruleset to avoid the issues raised. But it is all hypothetical so feel free do disagree.

But until then we need plenty of LoS blocking terrain to make units impervious to shooting.

*most shooting

[Panzer]

Ghostkeels are -2 to-hit but can be countered by 1) shooting the stealth drones first which only have -1 to-hit, 2) getting close since the second -1 to-hit only applies at >6" and 3) getting into melee since neither to-hit debuff applies in melee. It's also a T6 W10 model so rather easy to damage once you hit it and taking damage hurts it a lot. Imo a perfect example of how to do a stealthy unit that is hard to hit.

[Vermintide]

Los blocking terrain is indeed very important, but so are regular ruins.

 

I can't stress enough how important it is for players to ensure the rabble has sufficient terrain. I often see images or videos of games and the terrain used is woefully inadequate.

 

Terrain can be expensive but it's mandatory. Gamemat.eu do complete, painted sets that make for a good start.

 

It takes all of ten minutes to print out a template and make some cardboard ruins. It takes all of an hour to throw some cheap grey paint and a bit of nuln/agrax over it. Nobody needs to spend a huge amount of money on functional terrain.

 

Pretty terrain is a different matter, but if you want it to look good you're going to build and paint it yourself, just like your miniatures. Right? ...Right?

 

Anyway, I agree with you here. But it makes me think- Do you think GW should do more in their rules/publications to emphasise the importance of terrain? Do you think GW should feature the layout of a table and bring back those hobby sections it used to have that show you how to easily make an effective game area?

 

I think that's the problem, really. Most players focus on their armies. It's all about their models and the balance of those models. The tabletop itself is a secondary concern at best. Maybe that's what needs to change.

[The Yncarne]

On the army vs terrain bit; you are more likely to use your terrain more often than your army/armies the longer you are in this crazy hobby of toy soldiers. 

 

Edit: spehlling

[TorvaldTheMild]

How many play with line of sight blocking terrrain? Alot, little, none? Looking at GWs terrain, i think there doesnt seem to be all that much los blocking terrain, they have windows and stuff perhaps. Seems like shooty armies can benefit alot from being able to shoot at whatever.

 

Please excuse grammar, spelling mistakes and such.

GW have a lot of los blocking terrain, also the kits you buy most of them you can make your own design so you can use it to make los blocking terrain depending on how you model it.  If you are a CC focused army or have a lot of CC units you should try and use terrain for your benifit, even if its not los blocking use wide covering terrain like craters where you can always get cover.  But you don't want to go ever the top, being that guy, though in this edition with how bad CC armies are you might be forgiven for that.