How to fix Ad Mech in 2.0?

[Charlo]

NEW TOPIC TITLE AS IT SEEMS MORE RELEVANT!

 

So a fun topic I've seen elsewhere in the forum for other factions...

What would you like to see in our update come PA or Codex 2.0?

For one I think Ad Mech are very much an army in need of a "mono faction bonus" akin to Marine Doctrines. Perhaps a second layer of canticles or a return to the Doctrina Imperatives from 7th Ed? However some do live on as Stratagems I know...

Dogmas will no doubt get a rework and update I the near future, we know Stygies will probably move to mirror Raven Guard (and be better because Shroudpsalm exists).

Canticles could also do with an update as many are, let's face it, useless - either clashing with bubbles or having little impact (electromancer anyone?)

In an ideal World we'd see a full Supplement for each Forge World, however I think simply a Mars one would be exceptional.

[Black Knight]

Hopefully a new model and not a reboxing of the two that are currently packed with other models.

 

Something to counter the psychic awakening that isn't a psyker, maybe a null zone artifact, I quite like our army being psykerless.

 

Flier would make my year. Also we need some mono-faction updates like very army does now.

[Xisor]

I'd like to see Carl let loose from Mars (like the new model's approach: unique, doesn't gain dogma, doesn't impede allied Mechanicus).

 

Carl's not especially Martian as it currently stands anyway.

 

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I'd be keen to see a walk back on the Ironstrider "perpetual engine" concept too.

 

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I'd particularly like to see:

- Onager & Disintegrator squadrons.

 

- "faction" skills - not by forge world, but by philosophy. Xenophile's "hide in plain sight" would be a reworking of Stygies VIII Dogma currently, but not tied to he Forge world per se.

 

- Canticles basically be rolled up into some fancier/cheap Strategems. The mechanic at the moment is clunky; for an amazing name, Litany of the Electromancer is very sad.

 

- Robot rules revised to be Aegis Mv7"/+3 Attacks, +2" mv/Shoot twice -3" mv or some such.

 

- Kataphrons BS3+. (Possibly lose movement bonus vs heavy weapons.)

 

- Skitarii HQ option

 

- Ruststalkers made compelling. (Not sure how, rework the vibro rules? Just more vicious with extra/exploding attacks?)

 

- Ambot rules.

[Prot]

There is a Cawl novel around the corner. I was assumed it was related to this and am looking forward to it.

 

I want to see some grim dark pile of Psykers strapped to a giant robot that spits lightning at the bad guys...some really ‘Giger-esque” mechanical Psyker Black hole on the battlefield.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Wishlist is the same as always minus a transport.

 

- Skitarii HQ

- Flyier (a plane like the Avenger please)

- Makeover for Ruststalkers (maybe advance and charge, some sort of grenade and AP-1 on the weapons)

- Fast Attack option for Cult Mechanicus (Robots like Vorax or a Vulturax as second flyier next to the plane)

- Fix Litanies of the Electromancer ("while this canticle is active, each time an enemy unit moves within 1" (including plie in, consolidate, falling back, charging) of a unit with the canticles special rule, roll a D6 and do mortals on a 6").

 

Other than that there could be other named characters besides Cawl for other Forgeworlds or more generic HQs like Technoarcheologists (Daedalosus) or Artisans (Larsen van der Grauss).

[Charlo]

Yeah some kind of Psyker-servitor/ robot would be quite nice - something we can run mono faction and still attempt to shut down powers. Though I don't think the whole "Giger" look would fit Imperial Mechanicus so much, though I'm willing to be proven wrong B)

 

I think we're actually OKAY for HQs now; Cawl, Dominus, Manipulus, Enginseer & The BSF Priest cover a wide variety of stuff - though obviously I wouldn't deny anyone a Skitarii HQ! I'd really like him to be unique and have some cool buffs outside of "re-roll 1s to X", maybe even a large Ld buff would be welcome!

 

Forgot about flyers. Yeah we could definately do with that kind of speed. I'd want it to be more than just any old Imperial Navy Plane... It needs to feel Ad Mech. Might be nice to make this a Robot actually - think Loyalist Heldrake...

[Black Knight]

The experimental unit from Supreme Commander the flying giant bug with legs!

[MajorNese]

Considering the "unexpected" design of so many GW AdMech units, I doubt we can say with any certainty which units will be in there. Either way, more variety would be lovely, as well as a considerable mono-faction bonus that allows Questor Mechanicus for obvious reasons.

 

Otherwise, there are weapons/machines powered by psykers, but considering the whole "AdMech found out about blackstone and fights necrons over it" plot I'd actually prefer weaponized blackstone stuff.

[Frostglaive]

My wishlist:

 

- Dunecrawler squadrons again, like back in 7th

- Skitarii HQ (obviously)

- I don't really mind if Cawl remains Mars, but it'd be cool if he split off and could go anywhere. Seeing as how I never run Mars, it'd be nice to use him once in a while

- Litany of the Electromancer reworked, or just Canticles as a whole

- Back in 7th, the Skitarii codex's bonuses were the Doctrina Imperatives, but I feel like people forget about their primary detachment rule they had as well: free Scout movement pre-Turn 1, as well as the old Crusader rule. I'd like to see that return. Maybe run it as a Skitarii-only detachment bonus if we ever get a Skitarii HQ?

- I want beta rules for the 30k models like Custodes got (my dreams of Fires of Cyraxus will never die!)

- Mono-faction bonuses like Marines, but with the ability of allowing Questor Mechanicus to not impede that.

- Blackstone upgrades or new units revolving around Blackstone

- Larsen Van Der Grauss being usable in an AdMech army. Simply because I think it'd be cool to have, not because it'd be a great addition gameplay-wise.

- Anti-psyker abilities (relating back to Blackstone upgrades or units)

- rework on the Ruststalkers to make them usable and preferable

[Charlo]

Crusader / Scout is a most excellent pick-up. The latter would be an ideal armywide rule for Skitarii and really represent them being the first wave of expendable troops ahead of the Ad Mech stuff and offer something unique to the army, not much other stuff scouts that hard! I'd say avoid it on Dunecrawlers & transports, but hell the game is an arms race now so why not!

 

Blackstone is 100% the best way to get some Psychic defence for us methinks, anti-psyker robot with a core of Blackstone is GO. Or perhaps a new type of techpriest developed in the aftermath of the great rift called a Noctiseer (blackstone is called noctilith n high gothic) that specialising in using the stuff? Even something as simple as being able to deny a power and if you do cause a mortal wound on the psyker would be thematic and true to the fluff - possibly even a bonus against Chaos mind bullets.

 

Ruststalkers are so close to being good. Massed mortal wound potential is so hard to put into points cost as it's just that, potential.

[Prot]

I've been thinking more about this.

 

Watching the 'elite' armies like nuMarines makes me realize they shoot incredible. They have better overwatch, can take an assault, and have great psychics now.  The game is still evolving considerably and there's still major holes in the codex.

 

I like the Blackstone idea. Reading Cawl's Great Work.... There's room to have an automated flyer 'drone' type thing that would be better at handling flyers, and perhaps incorporate a Psychic Denial ala Tomb Spyders.

 

Cawls' Aura should be on all the time. It's bad that it's limited to shooting and in the shooting phase, and it lost its uniqueness to reroll all since Abaddon and now NuMarines get it. And they can put it on a very inexpensive HQ for 2 CP now.

 

I love the Dunestrider transport on paper, but it still needs something that's well suited for the transportation. I still think a tweak to Russtalkers would be great.

 

Since the army is so decidedly shooting oriented first, and very prone to deep strike/assaults (which is much easier now with White Scars/GSC/etc) I think we need a better 'detection' system. More new tech that surpasses the marine's "auspex scan". 

 

We have nothing with fly. Some sort of accessible ability or unit that can withdraw assault and still shoot would be very welcome. 

[Marshal Rohr]

-Elite Skitarii Veterans with Plasma Carbines/Volkite Chargers

-Skitarii Flight Unit/Drone Strike Craft

-Aerial Transport

-Plastic Heresy Cybernetica and Thallax/Ursarax

-Adsecularis Tech-Thralls

-Different types of Servitor besides Repairmen and Heavy Weapons

[Xisor]

Here's a thought: some "elite" Strategems.

 

The Skitarii protocols are close to it, but still not quite right. Or not quite *enough*.

 

So strategems to, say, allow a Detachment's Duneriders to gain the Assault Vehicle rule for a turn. (Disembark after move.)

 

A strategem to megaboost overwatch.

 

A strategem to enact some sort of catastrophic electropocalypse from the priest. (Or a literal Litany of the Electromancer strategem: trigger the canticle immediately, to take effect at any point within the turn sequence.)

 

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Endless "Spells" like Khorne & Fyreslayers - prayers.

 

Motive Force foolishness.

 

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Prayers, actually.

 

Transform Canticles/Protocols into Prayers and now we're actually talking some mighty fun.

 

Sure, they're tech based. But are they? ;)

 

(Yes, they are. But still, just use the damn mechanism. Let Graia's prayer basically be unbind/dispel rather than costing a strategem - let everyone else use it at CP. Forge World uniqueness isn't as important to me as capturing a fun and invigorating Codex.)

 

As if places other than Lucius won't teleport their stuff.

 

And as if Skitarii from elsewhere than Stygies won't be sneaky when they need to.

 

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Actually, I'd be happy to see 5-20 Skitarii squads too. Similarly, it'd be cool to have a strategem (like Servitor/Cybernetica) that let Electoriest Squads gain the Objective Secured rule.

 

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If they're not going to make a Skitarii HQ model, how about the distinctive ones: that already exist - the robed Sicarian Princeps types, and the Sydonian Dragoons.

 

A Dragoon HQ is awesome for a little Outrider or Spearhead formation of Ironstriders or Onagers.

 

Make it so.

 

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Infiltrator aura augmentation - something anti-psyker? Blackstone resonator pulse? Something derived from the studies at Cadia during the fall?

 

There's a ton of stuff. I suppose the key is really working backwwards:

- what mechanics are in use in the game, but unused by the Codex so far?

- what game options are forbidden to us - and is it oversight or stylistic choice?

- what opportunities are there to break new ground? (Willing Codex Creep: let's introduce pilfering of certain outre elements from other Codexes. Why have Chimeras when we can exploit Deathstrikes? Why have Rhino's when we can inherit the Land Raider and Land Speeder [what's that interceptor one? No Marines visible!] templates? Gain some Devildogs rather than Hellhounds etc.)

[Charlo]

Okay so what I am getting from the sub forum is a real drop in enthusiasm for the (predominantly) Red tin 'eads. Threads like this one inspired me to revive this topic and do a deep dive into what is actually really broken for us.

 

As we move into the second cycle of 8th ed with the release of the vastly improved Marines 2.0 book (sorry Chaos, yours doesn't quite cut it) and the teased updates from PA it clearer than ever that Ad Mech is a very early 8th edition book. CA gave us a shot in the arm with the new points but when the rules are where they are it just wasn't enough. Which is where the issue lies; the surrounding special rules in the codex. Units are nice with lots of potential but have no network of rules support to push them over (think doctrines etc). So just how much is dead weight? Let's look:

 

Dogmas + Specific Relics & Strats

• Mars: Good, but only by merit of Cawl and getting free cover each turn. Also solely based around canticles which is a larger issue i'll touch on later. Relic is pants but Stratagem is very powerful, maybe the best one in the codex for damage.
• Agripinaa: Surprisingly good on a re-look, however really forces Kataphron which is basically our only half decent (and boring) build anyway.
• Graia: Yeah... No. Vastly underpowered dogma with only really a 4+ deny trait going for it. If you are in combat you're dead, not shooting afterwards.
• Lucius: Decent but gimmicky, you give up a lot for the ability to teleport IMO (something many codexes get easily build in...)
• Metalica: Almost great, makes Vanguard shine but it doesn't fix them and they can't hold up an army alone.
• Ryza: We are not a melee army. Going a melee army is a fools game. Super Plasma is fun but again a gimmick.
• Stygies: IMO this will change to match Raven Guard's CT, which means maybe some cool interaction with Shroudpsalm if it remains. Also infiltrait is great. Probably the second most viable to Mars.

So yeah, most of the dogmas are DOA, sadly.

 

Canticles

 

These are plain broken. They either do nothing or so little that it's not worth it or lack any real synergy with the force... Let's analyse:

• Incantation of the Iron Soul: Lets you re-roll failed Morale Tests. Largely irellevant as if our units are taking morale they're probably dead or can do it from wargear already.
• Litany of the Electromancer: You get a 1 in 6 chance for each unit that's in melee with you to suffer 1d3 mortal wounds. Atrocious and confusing. Again if you are in combat you are dead. If GW persists with this it should just be automatic for everything in combat.
• Chant of the Remorseless Fist: Re-roll 1s in the fight phase. COMBAT BUFFS WHY? Also Ryza laughs.
• Shroudpsalm: Army-wide cover; the main one. This is great but slowly getting worse as ignore cover becomes more of a thing in codexii.
• Invocation of Machine Might: +1 Strength. Laughable, if it affected shooting now THAT would be interesting.
• Benediction of the Omnissiah: Re-roll 1s in shooting army wide isn't really a buff when you have HQs that do the same or better.

Generic Stratagems

 

Truly the core of 8th ed currently, good stratagems take an "eh" book to a "HELL YEAH" book. Lets go through ours:

 

• Gloria Mechanicus (2 CP): Canticles suck and at 2CP this is very expensive.
• Divine Chorus (2 CP): However this is OKAY, as you can guarantee a second turn of cover. Not bad but not great.
• Zealous Congregation (3 CP): Personally I think this should be 2CP like the Tzaangor equivalent. Decent but priests are seldom used.
• Elimination Volley (2 CP): I'll give GW this one, it's awesome. Less useful in a world of Servitor Maniple and Deadalosus but still great.
• Binharic Overide (1 CP): Again very good. Used to change robots to shooty asap.
• Archaeotech Specialist (1-3 CP): Relics are poop so this is too.
• Scryerskull (1 CP): I mean, it's unique so sure. Helpful if you remember in the niche situations.
• Dataspike (1 CP): Fluffy, cheap and deals mortals! ...IN COMBAT, it's alright.
• Cognis Overwatch (1 CP): For 1CP, pretty amazing actually. Situational but amazing.
• Protector Doctrina Imperative (1 CP): Fair enough, THE GOOD STUFF RIGHT HERE.
• Conqueror Doctrina Imperative (1 CP): ZZZAAP!
• Benevolence of the Omnissiah (1 CP): Standard stratagem and a decent one.
• Tech-adept (1 CP): Powerful and thematic. Nice.
• Machine Spirit Resurgent (1 CP): Another great one, useful.
• Rage of the Machines (1 CP): Okay? I guess you'd just use Doctrina though...
• Dunestriders (1 CP): Feels a bit useless and not needed. Victim of a 7th ed rule turned 8th ed stratagem and worse.
• Acquisition at Any Cost (2 CP): Unique and great, especially on Breachers.
• Infoslave Skull (2 CP): Standard, nice with Kataphron and buffs on them/ robots.
• Machine Spirit's Revenge (1 CP): KABOOM!

Obviously some are... OKAY, great even. But there is a serious lack of anything major...

 

I'm a little burnt out on this post now but i'm hoping it leads to some more discussion...!

[Prot]

Nice compilation. Most of it is beyond me. 

 

I do enjoy seeing what people can come up with though and it would be nice to see GW interact a little more with this army.