Going 2nd - What's your game plan?

[SyNidus]

The discussions we've had so far all seem to be predicated on going first - which is fine and makes it easy to see what is great about our army and the things we can do.

The real challenge will be winning whilst going second. I know a lot of things depend on the game situation (your army, opponent's army, deployment and terrain, etc...) but perhaps there are principles that can be taken and applied in every game. Things that will not only help us survive going second, but even let us win the game.

 

Example:

Situation: I keep thinking of deploying my invictors forward so i can get the first turn charge, but this falls flat when I have to go second. So perhaps I space out the deployment of my 3 invictors at spaced intervals, so even if the opponent tries to run to another flank, there will be at least one invictor ready to assault. 

 

Principle: Surround the enemy deployment zone.

 

What other principles/situations can we work out to thrive going 2nd?

[Bluflash]

Consider placing your Invictors around mid-field, possibly out of los. With a 10" move they really don't need to start 9" from the enemy deployment line.
If you go first:  if you're running flamers, the move wont hurt any, and if you're running auto cannons they already have range.
If you go second: it's likely they're coming to you anyway, so the distance has been reduced.

 

 

[superwill]

Yeah, this is the haunting question which just keeps going round and round in my head these past few days. I mean, we have an army which can take any infantry unit, drop it 9" away pre-game, then move and advance pre-game, then move again T1. That is an almost broken-good combo. Very abusable for sure.

 

But for the life of me I just can't figure out what you would do with those units if you go second. I mean you could just plop them in your deployment zone, but if we're talking about things like melee centurions (or even grav ones) or flamer aggressors, are they gonna be any good sitting at home? 99% of lists will have ways to kill them from afar or instantly from up close - it's rare you'll just get someone footslog at you and walk up to let you shoot them. And it's gonna be a long time before you walk into range yourself. You could try and still use the strats to let them move up but hide out of LoS, and just pray that you're playing on a field with perfect terrain pieces for that, and versing an immobile list which needs LoS.

 

Deployment shenanigans seems to be the style we've been handed (rather than speed, longevity or lethality) but when I think about maximising on that and playing an army which is near-broken when it goes first and effectively forfeits when it goes second (for example, a list with 900 points of centurions who either delete my opponent or sit and do nothing all game), and just flips the coin to see who wins, I just think that's not really the kind of army I want to play or would find satisfying (or reliable enough for a tournament). All that simply to say that like you I am very keen to find solutions for building in contingencies and discovering principles that will balance things out.

 

I guess the problem is complex and challenging because there's a bit of a paradox - you want units which are super lethal up close so that if you're going first you can make the most of launching them forwards. But in contrast, you want a unit who (if you're going second) can be deployed defensively and safely and still be valuable. Not many units are going to be very effective deployed defensively and yet really dangerous when 9" away from your opponent. That makes me think there won't be too many easy answers, and that it is possibly even a conundrum with no answer. Even though you get to know who's going first before you launch them, it's almost too late anyway as you've already built your army list and decided to start them on the board before you know.

 

My three prelimary thoughts have been:
A ) find units which are good when deployed at home, but will be even better when the opportunity arises for them to shoot forward,

B ) make use of these tactics on a smaller scale so there is less at stake if it doesn't pan out
C ) let the second half of the force be almost opposite and hope that the two balance out

 

A ) most (infantry) units either have short range guns or long range guns. If they have short then you don't want them sitting at home, and if they have long then you don't want to infiltrate them anyway. So what units could be good in either situation? The only thought which has occurred to me so far is - dun Dun DUN - characters. Deployed at home, characters can be a blessing to a gunline for their auras. Shrike, for example, could happily sit alongside some long-range vehicles. Chill for a couple of turns and bask in his promotion to chapter master, then fly up field and use his speed to get to where the action is. But alternatively, if you are going first, leave the gunline where it is (maybe use something like Wisdom of the Ancients if possible) and send Shrike into the fray. Chaplains can be similarly useful if they get stuck at home, but can be smashy if the light turns green.

 

B ) there are smaller cost units like a 3 man assault centurion squad or a 5 man grav devastator squad, who could still do some serious damage if you do get to go first, but are not going to be a huge investment if you don't (126-150 points). Pretty obvious, but I guess being able to make use of the strength of it when it pans out without being flattened if it doesn't might just be our best solution.

 

C ) Perhaps if we are going to invest heavily into options which shunt down-field (multiple squads of centurions and a couple of characters etc could easily add up to 1k points) we just need to think more strategically about how it synergises with the other half of the army. Now if it happens that we have a very large amount of points invested in a unit that wants to get up close (centurions for example) but get stuck at home, the biggest fear is 'what happens if the opponent doesn't come to us'? But perhaps the solution is to design a list who would love it if the opponent doesn't come to us. It turns the situation into something of a win-win. You have half an army that doesn't want the opponent coming at you, and the other half who would love it if they did.

And so now, those 'up close units' have become valuable at home as defenders of whatever the rest of the list is. If deployed as bubble wrap, centurions could even be great anti-DS, as who could survive an auspex scan of 6 grav-devs with gravitic amplification and a nearby shrike? And if you're bubble wrapping, the only way they're landing within 12" is if you're auspex scanning. So for example, let's imagine a list which has 800 points of centurions ready to redeploy, and invests the remaining 1200 into a gunline (executioners, leviathans, TFC, whatever). If you go first, obviously stick with the plan and enjoy the win. If you go second you have a couple of options. If you're versing an army who is coming to you, you can leave your cents at home and then either they'll catch the charges/bullets that were headed at your gunline, or if your gunline gets charged and destroyed you've got your centurions nearby and now in-range so you can clean up. If you're versing another gunline, one which could destroy your executioners/leviathans/xiphons/whatever, you have an interesting option. Still go ahead and drop the cents on top of him (preferably deployed in cover and just outside of 12"). Maybe have some VV up there too with their storm-shields. Now, he can't really afford to ignore your centurions or VV or when your turn rolls around they'll do what they would've done if you went first, meaning that your gunline is probably going to have to be ignored in favour of the more pressing threat.

 

These are my earliest thoughts, so apologies that they're not very concrete. I guess the major flaws in each option are:

A ) it's probably just better to get your characters into combat, or to have ones dedicated to bringing auras. Flexibility is cool but not as practical as it sounds. Wouldn't you just rather a BA or WS smash captain who has a way more reliable charge and also do considerably more damage. And outside of characters there don't seem to be too many other units which break the paradox.

B ) there are hopefully more tricks which we just haven't found yet, but if we do currently have only one major move and the only  way to make it viable is to "only use it a tiny bit" that sounds a bit sad. If you're only looking at a small T1 drop, you'd probably just be better off buying a drop pod for a unit now that they come in T1 rather than taking RG if the only thing you're really utilising of theirs is letting a single small unit arrive on T1.

C ) I'm not sure whether using the cents/VV to protect/distract from a gunline is better than just planning a solid gunline from the beginning. It probably just makes more sense to take an insane gunline like IH, right? If they only had one or two small ways that their vehicles are better maybe it'd be okay, but I reckon there's a good 5-6 vehicle buffs they enjoy over us and some of them are really major bonuses (like the friggen Ironstone). Hard to imagine running any kind of Raven Guard gunline, and certainly not vehicles. I would love love love to run some Raven Guard planes, and a couple of black Xiphons would look so cool on the table, but when the IH ones are much more durable and effective it's hard to justify it (from a competitive POV).

 

Right now I'm just resisting the feeling that RG will be best as a small allied contingent. I've done my best to share what positive ideas or logical steps forward I've had but not sure I've made a lot of ground. Hopefully some of these ideas/principles will spark something in someone else that will provide clearer ideas, even if it means completely disagreeing!

[dode74]

As a general principle I think it has to be board control - force the opponent to come to you.  With that in mind some strong holding units combined with a swift reactive force to assist where the enemy attacks will make it work.  I think Van Vets are a good bet here, and a Librarian with Shadowstep will certainly help.

[Dracos]

Random thoughts ...

 

Avoid the thought that because we can play dirty with deployment that you should be building an alpha strike/shoot army.

 

Play the Mission : Deploy to win the mission, not to wipe out your opponents. If you can more power to you but more than not a “win” is going to happen because you looked at your opponent, looked at the mission, looked at a way to sever your opponents HQ and remained durable as long as possible.

 

Durability “can” be described as having high toughness or/and many wounds, but with 8th edition it’s more about NOT getting shot or charged in the first place. This is why Infiltrators cost so much in my opinion. Durability is definitely effected by taking your opponents models off the board also. All the elements end up affecting each other.

 

 

 

Yes we have stratagems and abilities that can put us 9” in front of the enemy for nasty T1 carnage. Those same abilities can pull a squad of Scouts or other forward deployed unit to the flank leaving a nasty kill zone for the opposition to walk through if we set up our fire lanes with some thought. Matter of fact if you deploy with proper distances you not only can get overlapping fields of fire, you might keep that unit there as bait or a doorstop for your own counterstrike.

 

One of the biggest mistakes I commonly see is improper spacing between units, giving the opposition an easy consolidated/pile in.

 

I’d love to add more but I want to see the books before making suggestions based on the supplement.

[Claws and Effect]

Do I look like a guy with a plan?

[MajorNese]

Build a wall. Make Tarantulas great in number again.

Takes care of chaff, and is more resilient than its cost would have us assume, considering it's in cover too even when deployed in the open. Considering their model size, units of 2 or 3 tarantulas can cover quite an area for deep strike denial and units moving through them.

Bonus points for any enemy units that try to get into CC with them to be untargetable, only to find out it doesn't apply. Yes, that happened on a local tournament - that Eversor got an unexpected, hurricane bolter induced back pain while hugging a Tarantula.

 

We have quite a few further options to slow down our opponents, we might as well use them too.

Otherwise, resilience and target saturation/threat management.

Full number of Eliminators, preferably deployed out of LoS in case the opponent has quite big guns and has them high on the priority list. They still hit characters on "only" 3+ for a turn when they move back in LoS turn 2+, but that will repay itself if they continue to wipe out characters/objective campers for the rest of the game.

We still have one point that is in our favor compared to IH when it comes to resilience - vs. long-range shooting (especially AP0 chaff), our stuff has a better armour save across the board. All vehicles being 2+ sv helps a lot, I know that from AdMech.

 

I'd say we might close in on the midfield with the more resilient and less specialized stuff, and use our nasty trick units (DS units, Shadowsteppers, Temporal Corridorers etc.) once the opponent has spread out a bit. I've had a lot of success in 7th edition with spamming outflanking units - they could engage target units one at a time with several of my units and take them out, pulling out the teeth of the other army one at a time. Local concentration of force also creates quick results without wearing down your own units - 3 units targeting 1 unit usually means the 1 unit is destroyed and the 3 units got barely a scratch in the process. That of course depends on armies and terrain, but is an excellent way to narrow down your opponent's options and reduce incoming firepower.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Our threads are kind of a mess right now with the same discussion taking place in 3-4 spots.

[Nusquam]

The new missions tell you who's going first by virtue of deploying your while army first and doing first. So if going second you can load things in deepstrike if needed.

 

Aggressors can be midfield or on a flank so that their overwatch does damage.

 

Centurions dont lose dakka on the move and they may not get the charge our of deepstrike as easy as infiltrating but 12 bolter shots and 2d6 autobot over watch per modem is threatening. Plus they have the durability to stay alive if you need to start then on the board.

 

I've taken to always brining the relic banner every game. It's just such valuable action economy in a IGOUGO based game. Anything you can do out of sequence on your opponents turn is powerful. I plop it next to what I know will get shot up. A 50/50 shot to get a shooting phase per model is better than no phase at all.

[Dracos]

Our threads are kind of a mess right now with the same discussion taking place in 3-4 spots.

True. We are a mash of building and usage discussions without an overarching vision.

 

After I get the painting event kicked off this weekend I’m going to map out different threads to discuss each phase separately

 

Deployment

Movement

Psychic

Shooting

Melee

 

Probably Tuesday or Wednesday . . . . unless someone beats me to it first of course. :)

 

 

Now if I was as smart as I wish I was I could also incorporate the most common mission goals (preferably from ITC/ETC) into the discussions, because without an eye toward mission objectives any conversation is going to be meta biased.

 

But I’m not quite that smart, yet ;)

[Archon_77]

For me its all about Libbies.  We only have arguably 2 good powers in Umbra, so taking say 3 Librarians each with one of their powers being Shadowstep gives me that T1 alpha even if I don't go first... and doesn't hurt too bad if I do go first.  Cents or even Hellblasters showing up to absolutely PASTE things after my opponent has already tipped his hand and moved forward sounds VERY nice. 

 

The flexibility of Shadowstep reminds me a lot of Grey Knights Gate power. . . if properly positioned we can be ANYWHERE.  Thus it doesn't matter much if we don't go first.  We COULD end up with weaker assaults due to range, but we have options to add to charges or get rerolls for distance if we must use our Psychic phase in place of a Movement phase for the purposes of positioning.  

[Bluflash]

Shadowstep is just a single character though, so it's not gonna gate a squad of Cents T1.

[Claws and Effect]

We only have arguably 2 good powers in Umbra

I disagree.

 

They are all solid.

 

I'm building 1 jump pack Libby specifically to be a beatstick.

 

4+ invuln and Spectral Blade both go off on 5+, so they'll be pretty reliable.

 

Give him the Armor of Shadows for more durability and maybe the Imperium's Sword Warlord trait for an extra attack and +1 strength so he's hitting at S10 on the charge.

 

S10, likely -4 AP, and d3 damage is a pretty solid weapon statline. Swinging 5 times will put a decent dent in a Knight character, since he'll be wounding on 2s and probably not allowing a save in melee.

[Dracos]

Shadowstep is just a single character though, so it's not gonna gate a squad of Cents T1.

Yes correct.

 

We need to look at other devices if we are trying to move units.

[Archon_77]

Aww poop!  That does throw quite the wrench in my plans.

[superwill]

And you can only shadow step once - can’t have multiple librarians casting the same power, right?

 

Personally I can’t ever see myself using powers 1, 5 or 6 (the last two just being lazy smite rehashing fillers), and not sure I’ll ever bother with 3 either. Even 2 and 4 are fine but are less impressive than some of the powers in the other supps. I’ll probably stick with the nerfed version of GSC’s Mass Hypnosis as the only one I use from Umbramancy.

[sultansean]

So if you know you are going second, or if you have a chance of going second I think you have to rely on Strike From the Shadows to deepstrike as normal. 

 

For this reason I think Raptors with the Hungry for Battle trait is the most competitive "Raven Guard" assault deep strike army.

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, for going second, since I play for objectives, I am thinking 2 squads of Bolter Scouts in Land Speeders Storm. Keep them in reserve, and zip onto the table on turn 3. Just line them up with a midfield objective, move, and advance if I have to, to get them on. Even our vehicles have cover when outside 12" now, so that will help with durability. Plus, get the Scouts into cover, and your opponent will have an even tougher time removing them, because I have had 2 or 3 turns to pull his teeth.