Thoughts on Grey Knights and the future

[Captain Coolpants]

Im completely fine with it getting its wardiness back in all honesty... He actually cared and made us great. Now we're the smelly ginger adopted step child with learning difficulties that no one wants. Edited October 22, 2019 by Captain Coolpants

[Mainely Wargamming]

Hey, take that back!  My cousin is WAY better than a GK.  

 

But in all seriousness, I see a lot of GW sanctioned stores and outlets just straight up pulling GK off the shelves.  Everything is now Order online or Ebay.  Which says to me they are squatted.  If GW wanted to make them awesome again, they would have at least teased it.  Can you imagine how quick a primaris Castellan Crowe and Primaris Paladins would fly off the shelves?  If they even HINTED at re-doing GK the forums would go apesh(t.  

 

No, GW is making their name mud.  They don't answer direct questions about them and they are left out of codexes.  I can't confirm this, but my friend said they didn't even get a mention in the new Spacewolves codex.  Which seemed odd.  No, GW is sending them off to live on a farm with Ratlings, Squats, the Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, and Necrons.

[MegaVolt87]

I don't know, my head cannon for GK is them being like custodes except they have psyker powers as far as material prowess. Custodes definitely feel like they reflect their fluff, GK not so much. So having them like custodes, low model count, strong with psyker powers seems right to me anyway. 

[Gederas]

Im completely fine with it getting its wardiness back in all honesty... He actually cared and made us great. Now we're the smelly ginger adopted step child with learning difficulties that no one wants.

No.... You don't. Ward's fluff was TERRIBLE, as every single army he wrote for was "TEH BEST EVAR!!1!", or with the Grey Knights having things that happen that makes NO SENSE (see: the infamous Sisters of Battle incident). And then the rules....

 

Seriously, people say the Iron Hands were busted? Ward's codex for Grey Knights made that look tame.

 

But in all seriousness, I see a lot of GW sanctioned stores and outlets just straight up pulling GK off the shelves.  Everything is now Order online or Ebay.  Which says to me they are squatted.  If GW wanted to make them awesome again, they would have at least teased it.  Can you imagine how quick a primaris Castellan Crowe and Primaris Paladins would fly off the shelves?  If they even HINTED at re-doing GK the forums would go apesh(t.  

 

No, GW is making their name mud.  They don't answer direct questions about them and they are left out of codexes.  I can't confirm this, but my friend said they didn't even get a mention in the new Spacewolves codex.  Which seemed odd.  No, GW is sending them off to live on a farm with Ratlings, Squats, the Inquisition, Legion of the Damned, and Necrons.

Because Grey Knights don't sell well, because their rules are presently trash. Primaris Grey Knights would be cool, but they'd have to SERIOUSLY do it right, because there's a level of fluff handwaving that suspends disbelief (for example: Cawl doesn't know they exist, nor does he have their gene-seed).

 

Also, I'm laughing you mentioned those five groups.... And four of them have gotten new models within the past couple years.

[Holier Than Thou]

 

 

Im completely fine with it getting its wardiness back in all honesty... He actually cared and made us great. Now we're the smelly ginger adopted step child with learning difficulties that no one wants.

No.... You don't. Ward's fluff was TERRIBLE, as every single army he wrote for was "TEH BEST EVAR!!1!", or with the Grey Knights having things that happen that makes NO SENSE (see: the infamous Sisters of Battle incident). And then the rules....

 

Seriously, people say the Iron Hands were busted? Ward's codex for Grey Knights made that look tame.

You’re right about the fluff, it was dreadful. Not just in a poor quality way, but in a ‘this :cuss doesn’t make any sense’ way.

 

But you’re dead wrong about the rules. Yes, they were stupidly powerful when they first came out, but that was because they were designed for the next edition 6-8 months down the line. Once 6th edition and some of the other 6th Codices were released released, the Grey Knights Codex was good, maybe very good, but not broken.

 

Unfortunately, those 6-8 months is all people remember.

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah we were part of the standard power creep. We were the first (or one of the first) codecies in a new edition. By the end of of the releases, we were very mid tier. But still received a LOT of nerfs because we worked too well in soup lists...

 

Marines and guard just took a detachment to spam warp quake (which worked better for gun lines that us) and to use draigo to baby sit and teleport around their units (remember characters joined squads back then)

And paladins were used for dodgy wound allocation.

All of those issues aren't even a thing anymore. Yet we got nothing to compensate back.

[Waking Dreamer]

5th Edition is long gone, anyone who keeps up with GKs or has played against them for the last 2 Editions knows they are far removed from the "broken" rules they had during that time. People from other armies who lament at how poor or weak their rules are in 8th ed, readily admit that GK are still worst and feel sorry for our predicament even more than their own. 

[Mainely Wargamming]

I would love to be able to wave a magic wand and see the breakdown of sales by faction in 8th, because I'm willing to bet more people would have been on board for a GK re-release than for a IF re-release...

[Karack Blackstone]

No.

 

I expect GK's and Sw's, among many armies are going to soon get the reworks that they need, especially since the new SM book is the door opener to 8th Ed. 1.5.

 

I just hope not Blizzard soon...

 

Still, if anything, GK's are going to be balanced with the new points and SM book in mind. I just hope that GW knows enough to do all armies justice.

[Captain Coolpants]

Wish I was as optimistic as you

[Karack Blackstone]

Wish I was as optimistic as you

 

Optimism is a choice.

 

Speak with your wallet.

 

No sustainable rules, no purchases. If GW needs the time it took to realize GK's are in the same spot Sisters of Battle were for so many years come five years from now, they're going to be dead as a company. As it is, there's little save GW to shoot itself in the foot. The new, current GW seems to at least know that some of the trouble is on them for doing things as they do.

 

The rub will be in how they respond to the total pessimism of a force that once was amazing, and now, is just totally lackluster thanks to being overcosted and not having the table throughput that they used to have. Anti PA shooting is just too strong, but survivability for all C/SM lines is not great right now. Still, either they will fix it, nearly die to fix it, or die.

 

No matter what, one of my favorite games to play can either only improve, or die trying; either way, I win.

 

So, why worry about it for now? I have no say in the matter, I just have faith that GW hopefully thinks it knows enough difference between, "We know what we're doing," and, "We DON'T know what we're doing," to get the results we need.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Wish I was as optimistic as you

 

 

Speak with your wallet.

 

No sustainable rules, no purchases. If GW needs the time it took to realize GK's are in the same spot Sisters of Battle were for so many years come five years from now, they're going to be dead as a company. As it is, there's little save GW to shoot itself in the foot. The new, current GW seems to at least know that some of the trouble is on them for doing things as they do.

 

GWs revenue is coming from Primaris models and the soon new plastic Eldar, and Plastic SoB models. GKs have 3 semi-old boxes, 3 finecast infantry models and one plastic character model. Vehicles (rhinos, landraiders, dreads, stormravens etc.) are still being sold by other SM armies.

 

I think it's fair to say that GW probably have other production lines / box kits they are relying on right now, and hence will focus on pushing them first. It doesn't seem like a priority if the level of GK kits aren't particularly on the rise, or even if they are declining right now.

[Karack Blackstone]

Fair, but, think about the fact that GW can associate a person with a series of purchases. If GW truly felt like doing their homework, it makes sense that they can tell the GK's are suffering as far as players go. The general attitude and model presence is likely noted as being down.

 

I could also be wrong; but, why? They know the rules hopefully, yes; do they? So long as they know what they DON'T know, then it doesn't even matter yet.

 

The problem is, sitting on lots of GK products will one day hopefully soon show them that the models need better rules. It's only a matter of time; I pray that it's in time.

[newdigitalGK]

I don't want to rain on a parade here, but GK will not be getting the changes they NEED to be active in PA.  They will at most get a few new rules, but they will still be overcosted Elite Melee armies with extremely weak psychic abilities.  PA isn't going to fix their weapons, their stats, and their costs, lack of units, and CP needs.  

 

They are the Tempestus Scions of the Space Marines.  Extremely niche army with a few models that do one thing and thats it.  They kill daemons, and they mostly suck at that too in comparison to the new codex's.  GW has no interest in pushing old models up a hill that is currently occupied by Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and White Scars

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree, at most GK's will get their finecast models made into regular plastic. I don't see any kind of actual GK love any time soon. I would even say that Matt Ward superness of GK's was a fluke that made it through the cracks that were gaping holes at the time with GW. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

Of course its not the end, they are an incredibly important aspect of 40k.  At the most they will be absorbed into another codex like the Inquisition.  GW gave them a new model not that long ago, they have their hands completely full with the Primaris update and CSM's, we won't see an update for a while maybe even a year or so.  They are not a popular army so they will never be top priority and even worse they are a small elite army.  GW will update their rules to make them cheesy to see if their popularity will rise (which it would) and then they would consider getting rid of them if they didn't become more popular.  If Sisters are getting an update trust me, GK's will as well.  Do what I did, I got all sisters fans to band together and buy a model to show their popularity and coincidentally after that GW released them.  

Edited October 28, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Waking Dreamer]

Of course its not the end, they are an incredibly important aspect of 40k.  At the most they will be absorbed into another codex like the Inquisition.  GW gave them a new model not that long ago, they have their hands completely full with the Primaris update and CSM's, we won't see an update for a while maybe even a year or so.  They are not a popular army so they will never be top priority and even worse they are a small elite army.  GW will update their rules to make them cheesy to see if their popularity will rise (which it would) and then they would consider getting rid of them if they didn't become more popular.

 

So, even though the GK Codex was released right after the SM Codex, and now that they got SM Codex 2.0, GK armies will wait ATLEAST another 12 months, while GW skips GKs position in updates, making other armies even better (with their Codex 2.0), while they already had the benefit of being better than the GK with their Codex 1.0 (due to natural power creep), only for GW to eventually...release a broken and CHEESE filled Codex, where EVERYONE and their grandmothers will NOW bring GKs to the table, leaving the loyal GK fans who have kept their 4K points worth of GKs for 6+ years to BECOME "That Guy"....tjust because. That's our reward? That's our future...?

 

Grim Dark indeed...lol

[Brother Tyler]

I've merged the "Is this the end for the Grey Knights?" topic into this one since it's the same basic discussion.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

No, GW is making their name mud.  They don't answer direct questions about them and they are left out of codexes.  I can't confirm this, but my friend said they didn't even get a mention in the new Spacewolves codex.  Which seemed odd. 

 

I can confirm this isn't true. GK get a few mentions in the current SW book, specifically when the fluff bits cover 1st Armageddon and the whole 'Warzone Fenris' thing.

 

[Mainely Wargamming]

For all the people stating it's not fair that the GK don't get a new codex release soon, my SoB army from 7th would like a word with you.  GK are a broken horrifying mess, and the only ways to fix them would require re-making them, which would invalidate the models currently owned or for sale.  

 

Their main gimmick was nerfed into oblivion by the Turn 1 DS rule.  Unless they get special rules like drop pods, or they somehow get buffs to their wounds, attacks, and force weapons, they are being relegated to a full re-release, which won't likely happen until much later.  

[momerathe]

GK are a broken horrifying mess, and the only ways to fix them would require re-making them, which would invalidate the models currently owned or for sale.  

 

I don't agree with this at all. Yes, there are gaps in the range, and some new models wouldn't hurt, updates to their rules and adjusted points costs could fix them just fine.

[Mainely Wargamming]

 

GK are a broken horrifying mess, and the only ways to fix them would require re-making them, which would invalidate the models currently owned or for sale.  

 

I don't agree with this at all. Yes, there are gaps in the range, and some new models wouldn't hurt, updates to their rules and adjusted points costs could fix them just fine.

 

 

I get what your saying, but that would be beyond what even the SM:Nucodex is getting.  Most factions are getting 1-2 new Primarisized HQ models, and that's it.  Otherwise it's rules based off what is already there.  

 

GK need a lot of new models, and an entirely new codex on top of that.  

 

I just don't want to hedge my bets on that happening before the SoB curse comes true for 8th.  (SoB releases always herald the very end of an edition)

[Waking Dreamer]

GKs can get themselves out of bottom tier in 8ed without new (primaris) models if they:

 

1. Get their own variant of Combat Doctrines (every non non-Codex compliant SM army is hoping for this).

2. Improved / new Stratagems.

3. Enhanced "Chapter Tactics" (army-wide rules).

4. Improved GK Special weapons.

 

Points 1-3 is what Codex SM all received with their Supplements at least. Of course for GKs, each one needs to be spot on, but there's more likelihood in these changes than hoping and "waiting" for primaris models.

 

To each his own.

[Slasher956]

Fair, but, think about the fact that GW can associate a person with a series of purchases. If GW truly felt like doing their homework, it makes sense that they can tell the GK's are suffering as far as players go. The general attitude and model presence is likely noted as being down.

 

I could also be wrong; but, why? They know the rules hopefully, yes; do they? So long as they know what they DON'T know, then it doesn't even matter yet.

 

The problem is, sitting on lots of GK products will one day hopefully soon show them that the models need better rules. It's only a matter of time; I pray that it's in time.

 

 

 

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree, at most GK's will get their finecast models made into regular plastic. I don't see any kind of actual GK love any time soon. I would even say that Matt Ward superness of GK's was a fluke that made it through the cracks that were gaping holes at the time with GW. 

 

 

 

Just want to say... you are talking about the same company that just release a new rule book with new super cool psychic rules that a simple read showed the one of them didnt work... unless you count aiding your opponent working!

 

:p

 

Their proof readers don't play the game, the rules writers dont appear to play the tournament sceen... or even match play very much!

[momerathe]

GKs can get themselves out of bottom tier in 8ed without new (primaris) models if they:

 

1. Get their own variant of Combat Doctrines (every non non-Codex compliant SM army is hoping for this).

2. Improved / new Stratagems.

3. Enhanced "Chapter Tactics" (army-wide rules).

4. Improved GK Special weapons.

 

Points 1-3 is what Codex SM all received with their Supplements at least. Of course for GKs, each one needs to be spot on, but there's more likelihood in these changes than hoping and "waiting" for primaris models.

 

To each his own.

Yes, exactly. I would add an additional psychic discipline, but that again falls into the scope of what happened with both the SM supplements and with what the Eldar got in Psychic Awakening. I take Slasher956's point that GW have to not screw it up, but it could be done without a whole new model range or even any new models at all.

[Mainely Wargamming]

So, once again the GWs has gotten themselves into a fluff corner with the GK.  

 

According to the fluff, there aren't any other new models.  And Cawl doesn't have their "stuff/tech/geneseed/dooberhickey?" so he can't "improve on the design".  They are supposed to be thousands of years more advanced than anyone else, because of how time flows there.  So either GW pulls more Wardian fluff out of left field and gives them Primaris, or this is all they are getting save for maybe a Character release or FW.  

 

As to new codexes and re-release, PA is still ongoing.  It's very possible they will get SOMETHING.  But if there was a new codex coming down the line we'd have heard something by now.  Hell we had Sisters model leaks in 2018.