Thoughts on Grey Knights and the future

[Holier Than Thou]

As long as it's not like last time we got a point drop! Getting all excited and then realising everyone else got point drops too so actually it didn't change anything. Yes I can fit more stuff in but so can everyone else!

100% this. I’m not getting carried away until we see what everyone else gets too.

[Biscuittzz]

Very rough math listing here from all the various lists I've made over time. If we take these drops and mediocre/below-average points drops on other units, I'd say we'll be able to happily fit another 10 man strike marine unit into a list. Based on the new cost of a strike that is.

[Ichar]

I was excited about the GK changes to strikes and Terminators. Then I saw that Deathshroud Terminators were dropping to 25 from 35. So this:

 

Deathshroud M4 S5 T5 A3 W2 Disgustingly Resilient with Manreaper S+3 AP -3 D 1d3 42 points (25 base/17 manreaper)

 

GK Terminator M5 S4 T4 A2 W2 1 Psychic Power with Force Weapon Daemon Hammer S x2 AP -3 D3 35 base 13 for Daemon Hammer 48 points (?)

 

Yep. Not sure this really helps the GK if that is how they balance things.

[Corvus Fortis]

The main point here is that our basic troops getting point drop. My list is already saving 30 pts, which means I can easily fit multi-melta instead of HB on my Stormraven.  Of course, we won't be top-meta instantly, but, I think, now I will be able to have comfortable fun games against anyone, except new SM, without homeruling. Honestly, they should've give us this prices a year ago. 

[Biscuittzz]

I was excited about the GK changes to strikes and Terminators. Then I saw that Deathshroud Terminators were dropping to 25 from 35. So this:

 

Deathshroud M4 S5 T5 A3 W2 Disgustingly Resilient with Manreaper S+3 AP -3 D 1d3 42 points (25 base/17 manreaper)

 

GK Terminator M5 S4 T4 A2 W2 1 Psychic Power with Force Weapon Daemon Hammer S x2 AP -3 D3 35 base 13 for Daemon Hammer 48 points (?)

 

Yep. Not sure this really helps the GK if that is how they balance things.

 

Can't compare apples to oranges though. All you're looking at is the fact they are terminators. Deathshroud are Elites whereas ours are Troops. Also they have a short ranged pistol flamer but we have 4 shots of a stormbolter all the way out to 24". Being troops is easily worth 6 points in difference alone imo.

[Captain Coolpants]

This is very welcome. 40pts saved on every 10 man strike squad! That's actually huge.

 

Still won't be using terminators I don't think, but 30pts saving per 5 is actually pretty good.

 

 

But I still very much believe we need rules adjustments more than points. I don't care what we cost, as long as our rules are decent are capable.

[Waking Dreamer]

But I still very much believe we need rules adjustments more than points. I don't care what we cost, as long as our rules are decent are capable.

Yeah, points drop are good, but since it's part of an across the board points drop (like last time), we don't necessarily budge from our meta ranking.

 

Enhanced Chapter Tactics is the closest thing officially that will uniquely boost us army-wide. All Codex SM chapters (even homebrew) got a second part to their CT, If we get the obvious thing such as a psychic boost then maybe we may rise among the other armies. The obvious is better/more psychic (eg multi-cast), as right now even the Ultramarines can potentially cast more psychic than us with Librarius and Obscurios Discipline trees (12 different powers).

[Waking Dreamer]

What are the chances FW will finally realise their typo from last year's CA2018, and being the Twin psycannon down in points from its current 50pts. I mean, it may have been a numerical typo in the 50pts or...the error was in the name where it was supposed to read Twin heavy psycannon...   

[TheMostGood]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet. But Blood Angles are getting this rule for their sarcophagus boys. 

 

Wonder if we would get the same?

 

 

Or is there some kind of lore or gameplay aspect I am forgetting that would suggest that GK Dreads don't get the same? 

[Waking Dreamer]

Librarian Dreads are a unique unit to Blood Angels. Our dreads are GK psykers but not GK Librarians.

[UtariOnzo]

Grey Knights tend to use their psychic powers as a collective, even the leaders are mostly geared towards being focal points for their unit. While Grand Masters and Captains can, and do, use their powers more freely they still usually bring a bodyguard squad along with them and act as its Justicar for psychic power focus. Dreads would behave in a similar way.

 

GK Librarians are the exception, operating pretty much independently in terms of psychic power usage, and getting interned as a Librarian into a dedicated dreadnaught would be fairly rare even in the GK I would imagine, due to their more specialised battlefield roles and much higher risks of just being obliterated by an enemy rather than mortally wounded.

 

There’s also the issue of Libby Dreads being GW’s ‘exclusive’ toy for Blood Angels from a rules and marketing sense. Would feel less unique model, rules and collectable wise if that unit is being dished around to other factions.

Edited November 26, 2019 by UtariOnzo

[newdigitalGK]

I really hope that GK's will eventually get Doctrines I would love to have AP-1 Storm bolters in tactical Doctrine AP -2 with psybolt, would make GK's move up the rankings to a more playable faction and a little more forgiving. At least I hope CA or PA does this for us. 

[Ichar]

I just had a chance to look at the Sororitas Codex. I hope they put the same team that did that book on the Grey Knight PA revamp. It is fluffy, characterful, powerful, and looks very fun. I have a lot of hope for us, it just seems so far away. :(. I’ll be honest, jealousy is killing me right now with all of the neat stuff that is getting passed around.

[Corvus Fortis]

I just had a chance to look at the Sororitas Codex. I hope they put the same team that did that book on the Grey Knight PA revamp. It is fluffy, characterful, powerful, and looks very fun. I have a lot of hope for us, it just seems so far away. . I’ll be honest, jealousy is killing me right now with all of the neat stuff that is getting passed around.

 

 

 

With lots of confusing restrictions, unneeded nerfs and not nearly as powerful as new marines? Please, no. 

[Ichar]

 

I just had a chance to look at the Sororitas Codex. I hope they put the same team that did that book on the Grey Knight PA revamp. It is fluffy, characterful, powerful, and looks very fun. I have a lot of hope for us, it just seems so far away. . I’ll be honest, jealousy is killing me right now with all of the neat stuff that is getting passed around.

 

 

With lots of confusing restrictions, unneeded nerfs and not nearly as powerful as new marines? Please, no.

I am curious, what are the confusing restrictions and unneeded nerfs to SoB? I am asking out of genuine curiosity because I haven’t even looked at the 2018 CA version of SoB. On a side note, I don’t foresee GW making ANY army nearly as strong as “ new marines”. So no issues there :)

[Corvus Fortis]

I am curious, what are the confusing restrictions and unneeded nerfs to SoB? I am asking out of genuine curiosity because I haven’t even looked at the 2018 CA version of SoB. On a side note, I don’t foresee GW making ANY army nearly as strong as “ new marines”. So no issues there 

 

 

1) No more invulnerable save higher than 6+ on vehicles;

2) Significant cost increase on Exorcists;

3) Lots of units don't benifit from doctrinas and stratagems, because they are ministorum, not Sororitas;

4) Several units which does benifit from it, don't benifit from Order convicitons, because they don't have Order;

5) Best damage dealers are short-ranged or close combat units, but there are no means to deliver them to battle. Their only means are Rhinos and we all know how good are rhinos;

6) No more vanguard movement for Dominions in vehicles, which restricts mobility even futher;

7) Many relics, traits and stratagems buffs only characters which takes them. Which are S3, T3, 3+ girls and no one wants for them to be in frontline;

8) Acts of Faith are now random dice, which are once per phase replacement of random dice for restricted number of occasions. 1's has zero value, because SoB doesn't have problems with morale. 2's can be used very rarely. Some stratagems allows to utilize them, but they are not brilliant either.

 

SoB may have nice internal balance, and most problems can be fixed by point adjustments. But I don't see how they can handle current meta and SM especially. People talk about blobing Valorous heart infantry under 3 imagifiers for ignore AP-2 and... that's it. 

 

P.S.: Strike Knight is now 14 pts before upgrades and Draigo remains unchanged. That's what I heard.

[Waking Dreamer]

I don't know, my head cannon for GK is them being like custodes except they have psyker powers as far as material prowess. Custodes definitely feel like they reflect their fluff, GK not so much. So having them like custodes, low model count, strong with psyker powers seems right to me anyway.

 

Well, I've always thought with their psychic buffs on themselves along with their CC training, they should at least be on a similar level to Custodes. In other words, a Custodes wouldn't be able to steamroll a Grey Knight Terminator in straight combat. 

 

I mean, I've been having fun with these rules:

 

 

Page 2

 

Page 1

 

^ You can basically buff our GK Paladins to standard Custodes-level using those additional psychic powers (Sanctuary + Second Sight + Might of Titan) above!

[newdigitalGK]

So it seems to be the same as last CA but GW learned their lesson on calling GW clear winners! lol Lots of rumored point drops for most/many factions which means the pts drop for GK's will mean little. Though I doubt Pt drops will fix much of anything as it's the over costed ability to survive. I mean if you take a unit of similarly costed GK terminators Vs a full unit of Intercessors Via Mathhammer with full rapid fire on both sides

1 rnd

GK's shooting: 1.111 dead 

Intercessors shooting: 1.111 dead

 

what's the difference? This would be a 5 man squad of terminators Vs 10 man squad of Intercessor squad. GK terminators are 205 points. Intercessors are 170 points (currently). I understand that GK's have higher AP Melee weapons and Psychic powers. But baby smite and the sheer difficulty of getting into Melee consecutive turns is not worth the points. Plus you spent 205 points to probably kill 170 points and the likely hood of surviving that afterwords is not good. 

[Waking Dreamer]

Heavy Psycannons look to still be 24 points. The Invictor Warsuit's autocannons have double the range and are currently cheaper (unless CA actually bumps them up).

 

Officially GKs need a baller enhanced CT. Hopefully something not strictly anti-Daemon related.

[newdigitalGK]

So looking at the new points Same squad of terminators would now be 175 points. Going to say that's offiicial as the points were listed on GW's page. However would anyone here consider 5 man TDA equivalent to a 10 man squad of Intercessors? For me the answer would be no because that's twice the wounds for an opponent to chew through and saves are only marginally better with TDA due to the rampant availability of AP weapons. 

[Corvus Fortis]

Watched points review, this is what I've got.

 

GMNDK - 20 pts down

Interceptors - 4 pts down

LR - 20 pts down

Librarian - 13 pts down

NDK - 30 pts down

Paladins - 6 pts down

Purifiers and Purgators - 5 pts down both

Rhino - 5 pts down

Strikes - 5 pts down

Terminators - 7 pts down

Terminator Incinerator - 4 pts down

Terminator Psilencer - 3 pts down

Terminator Psycannon - 4 pts down

All nemesis force weapons for infantry - 1 pt up (except Hammer which stays the same)

 

Maybe I've got something wrong but generally it coincide with WHC article. 

 

EDIT: Stormraven is 20 points up. Thank you very much, Iron Hands!

Edited November 30, 2019 by Corvus Fortis

[Waking Dreamer]

Does the Twin Falchion count as 2 NFW...hence 2points up?

[Matt_149]

Grey knights are in the next psychic awakening

[Waking Dreamer]

Grey knights are in the next psychic awakening

 

For sure?

 

 

All of my Interceptors went down 2pts ppm because I re-modeled them all with Twin Falchions in 8ed.  Clever GW.....clever... 

 

Still better than nothing tho, so...it's okay. Twin Falchions were an auto-choice 90% of the time so it's better balanced now...?

Edited November 30, 2019 by Waking Dreamer

[Waking Dreamer]

Grey Knights (and Dark Angels)  vs Thousand Sons.....

 

Will GW give mirror bonuses (like our Smite exceptions) at the same time for WH40K's Jedi and Sith - where they can finally multi-cast psychic powers even in matched-play games?