The "Best" Legion/ Renegade trait, shooty army

[Charlo]

Simple question, no doubt complex answer!

 

If you had to run a mono CSM army, which legion (or Renegade) trait do you think is the best to do so? Taking into account restrictions, relics, WLT, marks etc.

 

Obviously things like the Purged only being able to be Nurgle but Alpha Legion being any mark are all to be taken into consideration.

 

As another twist, let's say it's in the context of shooting with maybe a daemon engine flavour

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Well... I haven't looked at a bunch of them (there's a lot that aren't in the first 8th ed Codex: CSM) but I reeeeeeeally like Black Legion. They treat their Rapid Fire weapons as Assault when they advance, which means things like Rubrics become ten times scarier, since you can Advance them and they can still shoot, which means you can put your force weapon and Smite to use quicker. Plus, they can take EVERYTHING that isn't either a special character or Death Guard/Thousand Sons exclusive. They also have, I believe, the greatest number of unique characters out of any Chaos faction, although I could be wrong.

[Aothaine]

The best Legion for a shooting-based army? Iron Warriors or Black Legion Imho. Get your CSM squads to 20-man and rock Abbadon or use IW with the auto-pass leadership tests. Alpha Legion also has some say in this as they are harder to hit, but the problem is they will still get hit and suffer from morale.

 

Black Legion can be a bit more mobile, but Iron Warriors ignore cover bonuses. But in the end it really comes down to what you are looking to build for your army. Do you want a lot of space marines on the field? Do you want a lot of vehicles? Do you want specialist elite forces?

[BrainFireBob]

Purge

[DaisyDuke]

I’ve been having great success using pure Red Corsairs. You get our best combat characters into combat super quick, the only downside is loosing access to veterans of the long war.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Of course, y'all know the worst one: Word Bearers. Literally just ATSKNF.

[Khornestar]

Of course, y'all know the worst one: Word Bearers. Literally just ATSKNF.

Ugh. What a joke. :(

[Aothaine]

Of course, y'all know the worst one: Word Bearers. Literally just ATSKNF.

 

They are certainly in a rough spot. Maybe if they could summon for half cost that could help them out a bit. Not make them great.. but help a little.

[Charlo]

I mean, I didn't need 3 posts to tell me the WB sucks, I knew that already :P

 

I suppose my want is a decent shooty force as I want to eventually create an army of Chaos Squads (inspired by Legion of Azgorh in AoS).

 

So shootyness, daemon engines and the like are on the cards. Originally I was thinking Thousand Sons (Rubricks are tough dudes with fancy guns and lots of cool psyker shenanigans and Tzaangor have a statline I'd like to abuse) however they are lacking in the Daemon Engine Department (they have them, they're just better in codex CSM) in addition, the even I'd be creating this army for is very much restricted to "mono faction" so i'd have to pick a single legion trait. I can stull take Rubricks in Black Legion (and some other legions) however it's the lack of making them "troops" that stymies them for me (and I really wanted the Tzaangor!) fearless blobs of 20 marines however does sound at least a touch appealing... And I suppose ignore cover is enough to tip over the "good at shooting" thing.

 

Veterans of the Long War is a biggie, I forgot about that, it almost rules out the renegades entirely... However the Purge seem quite nifty (other than being locked to Nurgle).

[Kierdale]

Chaos

 

 

 

Squats

 

 

:tu:

[Hannibal]

So shootyness, daemon engines and the like are on the cards. Originally I was thinking Thousand Sons (Rubricks are tough dudes with fancy guns and lots of cool psyker shenanigans and Tzaangor have a statline I'd like to abuse) however they are lacking in the Daemon Engine Department (they have them, they're just better in codex CSM) in addition, the even I'd be creating this army for is very much restricted to "mono faction" so i'd have to pick a single legion trait. I can stull take Rubricks in Black Legion (and some other legions) however it's the lack of making them "troops" that stymies them for me (and I really wanted the Tzaangor!) fearless blobs of 20 marines however does sound at least a touch appealing... And I suppose ignore cover is enough to tip over the "good at shooting" thing.

 

Veterans of the Long War is a biggie, I forgot about that, it almost rules out the renegades entirely... However the Purge seem quite nifty (other than being locked to Nurgle).

 

1.) Why do you think CSM Daemon engines are better than the ones in Codex: Thousand Sons? I do not see a difference besides the fact that CSM got Venomcrawlers.

 

2.) Do not underestimate the use of psychic powers! It´s just a different kind of "shooting" but better in almost all regards. My competetive Thousand Sons supreme command detachment consists of Ahriman, 2 Daemon Princes and a sorcerer in terminator armor which equals in 9 casts per round of which 8 can be direct damage spells, meaning around 16 mortal wounds per round. Competetively there is nothing better that a bunch of TS sorcerers if you like to get any reliable long range damage dealers.

Though some of the most useful spells that TS offer can be also used by CSM (death hex, warptime, presience) but you can´t cast that much damage spells.

 

3.) Why do several people name the Purge when it comes down to shooty armies?

 

4.) In my friendly games using CSM I go with Iron Warriors because neglecting cover bonuses is huge these days. And I still have access to veterans of the long war, which is one of CSM biggest advantages.

 

5.) I use to run a shooty army when I play CSM but it´s kind of hard to balance high quality shooting and number of bodies. Though I have yet to run daemon engines.

 

6.) Regarding daemon engines: I do not think that they are good shooting units. They all have a balistic skill of just 4+, rather low number of attacks which are often randomly determined. That´s nothing to count on in my opinion. They rather seem to be good "jacks of all trades".

[Emicus]

Shooty... Stay at range... Be alive to shoot..

 

Alpha Legion.

[Charlo]

 

So shootyness, daemon engines and the like are on the cards. Originally I was thinking Thousand Sons (Rubricks are tough dudes with fancy guns and lots of cool psyker shenanigans and Tzaangor have a statline I'd like to abuse) however they are lacking in the Daemon Engine Department (they have them, they're just better in codex CSM) in addition, the even I'd be creating this army for is very much restricted to "mono faction" so i'd have to pick a single legion trait. I can stull take Rubricks in Black Legion (and some other legions) however it's the lack of making them "troops" that stymies them for me (and I really wanted the Tzaangor!) fearless blobs of 20 marines however does sound at least a touch appealing... And I suppose ignore cover is enough to tip over the "good at shooting" thing.

 

Veterans of the Long War is a biggie, I forgot about that, it almost rules out the renegades entirely... However the Purge seem quite nifty (other than being locked to Nurgle).

 

1.) Why do you think CSM Daemon engines are better than the ones in Codex: Thousand Sons? I do not see a difference besides the fact that CSM got Venomcrawlers.

 

2.) Do not underestimate the use of psychic powers! It´s just a different kind of "shooting" but better in almost all regards. My competetive Thousand Sons supreme command detachment consists of Ahriman, 2 Daemon Princes and a sorcerer in terminator armor which equals in 9 casts per round of which 8 can be direct damage spells, meaning around 16 mortal wounds per round. Competetively there is nothing better that a bunch of TS sorcerers if you like to get any reliable long range damage dealers.

Though some of the most useful spells that TS offer can be also used by CSM (death hex, warptime, presience) but you can´t cast that much damage spells.

 

3.) Why do several people name the Purge when it comes down to shooty armies?

 

4.) In my friendly games using CSM I go with Iron Warriors because neglecting cover bonuses is huge these days. And I still have access to veterans of the long war, which is one of CSM biggest advantages.

 

5.) I use to run a shooty army when I play CSM but it´s kind of hard to balance high quality shooting and number of bodies. Though I have yet to run daemon engines.

 

6.) Regarding daemon engines: I do not think that they are good shooting units. They all have a balistic skill of just 4+, rather low number of attacks which are often randomly determined. That´s nothing to count on in my opinion. They rather seem to be good "jacks of all trades".

 

 

1. Basically, the Lord Dischordant and the Soulforged Pack specialist detachment. Those buffs are incredible powerful and always "on". I really like the LD and think he fits my theme. I'm sure there are psychic buffs that can achieve similar though?
2. I absolutely do not under estimate them! If anything they are certainly an aspect that draws me to 1KSons - my other armies are little to no psychic so I wanted to get the mind bullets in for sure.
3. If you cause a single wound to an enemy unit, ALL other Purge units then re-roll to hit against them. That's really strong for shooting! Chip a mortal wound from something and suddenly you are scary accurate.
4. IW seem better than people give them credit for. I am a fan of the ignore battleshock WLT and cover to make a shooty force and make marine blobs "viable".
5. Yeah I feel that. It's why I was looking at 1Ksons, they have strong shooting on the basic dude and are all but immune to small arms when sat in cover. Plus Tzaangor's make up the "bodies" (even if not for shooting).
6. Forgefiend + Lord Dischordant + Daemonforge is pretty monstrous! 3+ to hit with re-rolls. Even a Defiler with the right loadout suddenly becomes NASTY at range with those buffs.

 

Chaos

 

Squats

 

 

You know it brother!

[40kChrista]

 

 

 

 

So shootyness, daemon engines and the like are on the cards. Originally I was thinking Thousand Sons (Rubricks are tough dudes with fancy guns and lots of cool psyker shenanigans and Tzaangor have a statline I'd like to abuse) however they are lacking in the Daemon Engine Department (they have them, they're just better in codex CSM) in addition, the even I'd be creating this army for is very much restricted to "mono faction" so i'd have to pick a single legion trait. I can stull take Rubricks in Black Legion (and some other legions) however it's the lack of making them "troops" that stymies them for me (and I really wanted the Tzaangor!) fearless blobs of 20 marines however does sound at least a touch appealing... And I suppose ignore cover is enough to tip over the "good at shooting" thing.

 

Veterans of the Long War is a biggie, I forgot about that, it almost rules out the renegades entirely... However the Purge seem quite nifty (other than being locked to Nurgle).

1.) Why do you think CSM Daemon engines are better than the ones in Codex: Thousand Sons? I do not see a difference besides the fact that CSM got Venomcrawlers.

• Basically, the Lord Dischordant and the Soulforged Pack specialist detachment. Those buffs are incredible powerful and always "on". I really like the LD and think he fits my theme. I'm sure there are psychic buffs that can achieve similar though?

I was just about to bring this up... but you beat me to it.

 

I run the Soulforged pack as part of my Flawless Host, 2 LDs and 3 Venomcrawlers. I take a SCD of Slaanesh demons for a mounted Herald, and try to squeak in a Greater Possessed for another +1S since their guns are buffed with +S as well. Throw in a DP with wings, with maybe the Flawless Cloak to extend the reroll aura another 3", and those Venomcrawlers get scary at range and melee.

 

Love that detachment.

 

To be more on topic... I’m going for mostly shooty Black Legion, Slaaanesh heavy for as much Endless Cacophony as I can get. Big blob of Noise Marines, 2 units of 2 Oblits, 2 units of AC Havocs in a Dreadclaw. I might convert the belt fed ACs into chain cannons.

 

*edited to answer the question

Edited September 21, 2019 by 40kChris

[Tyriks]

Daemon Engines for Thousand Sons also don't get access to Master of Possessions psychic powers which can be helpful or Greater Possessed, which can also be helpful.

 

I will say Black Legion has some fun tricks. Let the Galaxy Burn and Veterans of the Long War last for the whole phase, so you can use them and Endless Cacophony together to devastating effect. I had one squad of Havocs with Heavy Bolters and a Combi-bolter on the champion wipe out a unit of 30 ork boys in one turn by itself.

[Prot]

Shooty Daemon engines is not a competitive idea. I’ve gone to tournaments with friends trying it against my personal advice. The result was pretty bad. The reason? Support. It takes just too many resources to make it work. So what works for shooty? The boring answer is The Purge with your favourite Forgeworld units and 1-2 Heldrakes to ensure twin linking against the most difficult to hit of armies.

Without T8 I’m not loving gunline right now for CSM. I think just wait until psychic awakening. There has to be something in there to help.

The problem with gunline is too many armies do it better...way better. When I ran against Astra with that ridiculous strat in a tournament (Cadia stands or whatever) it put the nail in the coffin for me. We can run a spackle of great gunline units but aside from the purge I think it’s a dead end to go full shooty right now.

Take some a mix of psychic, fast moving assault ( whatever works for you) and add some specialty shooting.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Prot

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Shooty Daemon engines is not a competitive idea. I’ve gone to tournaments with friends trying it against my personal advice. The result was pretty bad. The reason? Support. It takes just too many resources to make it work. So what works for shooty? The boring answer is The Purge with your favourite Forgeworld units and 1-2 Heldrakes to ensure twin linking against the most difficult to hit of armies.

 

Without T8 I’m not loving gunline right now for CSM. I think just wait until psychic awakening. There has to be something in there to help.

 

The problem with gunline is too many armies do it better...way better. When I ran against Astra with that ridiculous strat in a tournament (Cadia stands or whatever) it put the nail in the coffin for me. We can run a spackle of great gunline units but aside from the purge I think it’s a dead end to go full shooty right now.

 

Take some a mix of psychic, fast moving assault ( whatever works for you) and add some specialty shooting.

This, all of this. Personally, I like the idea of running a set of evenly mixed Cult Marines of all four types. Plague Marines can take whatever role you need and be tough at it, 'Zerkers are fast melee assault (relative) glass cannons, Rubrics are your Smite spam and AP -2 shooting and Noise Marines are your rapid shooty assault. Run Black Legion so you can run your Rubrics for melee if you'd like, buff 'em with Abaddon for hit re-rolls (and also for having Abaddon there) and season to taste with daemon engines, horde units and other miscellaneous support things.

[The Pounder]

Zephaniah Adriyen, that’s exactly how I intend on building my army!

I was thinking a Character or 2 and a couple of units for each of the dark gods.

Also they’d all look cool in black and gold!