The Morale Phase, whats the point?

[Kain Mor]

Calling all Night Lords players:

 

I want to have a discussion about the morale phase, and how useful it’s been in your games.

What I’m looking for: a discussion of the moral phase and anecdotal references to the morale phase in your games, whether good bad or neutral.

 

What I’m not looking for: theory crafting about how damaging a stacked -10 penalty is by people who have never tried to execute the plan.

[Trevak Dal]

(Not a Night Lord player) it seems pretty useless because everybody either takes units too small to be affected by moral (msu) or have built in ways for moral immunity (guard commisars, gangbanger fungus monsters being gangbangers and mobbing up, tyranids being fearless hordes while in synapse)

 

Nightlords should just be able to turn those protections off (with the exception to the Tyranids, as that's actually pretty fluffy).

 

Nightlords should be a hard counter to guard blobs, require the commisars to kill more guys to keep them in line and in doing so maybe cause them to still route (or kill the commisar).

[Gederas]

(Not a Night Lord player) it seems pretty useless because everybody either takes units too small to be affected by moral (msu) or have built in ways for moral immunity (guard commisars, gangbanger fungus monsters being gangbangers and mobbing up, tyranids being fearless hordes while in synapse)

 

Nightlords should just be able to turn those protections off (with the exception to the Tyranids, as that's actually pretty fluffy).

 

Nightlords should be a hard counter to guard blobs, require the commisars to kill more guys to keep them in line and in doing so maybe cause them to still route (or kill the commisar).

It's actually quite easy for Night Lords to kill Commissars. Unless the Guard player completely 100% bubble-wraps their Commissar, a Jump Pack unit (either a single HQ or a squad of Raptors/Warp Talons) can gib that Commissar in one fight phase.

 

Also, regarding the Orks: Every model you kill adds to the LD test. As I explain further down, that LD 30 mob of Ork boys? Still gonna have to take morale tests because they have, on average, T-shirt saves and a strong breeze can kill them.

 

Now, to answer your question Kain:

 

It seems from a quick glance that how the game is played means that the Night Lords' ability doesn't work too much on most armies. And while I've yet to play any games with my Night Lords (waiting until they're all painted), I've realized that my standard build would FORCE my opponent to deal with the Legion trait, either by using the Stratagem, or taking only MSUs. AND EVEN THEN, the MSU tactic..... doesn't completely work, as I'll explain further down.

 

Just for reference, this is my current planned out 2k list:

Battalion +5 Command Points (-1 for Specialist Detachment: Host Raptorial)

Faction: Chaos Space Marines (Night Lords)

 

HQ1: Sorcerer with Jump Pack (Force Axe)

HQ2: Chaos Lord with Jump Pack (Lightning Clawsx2) [Relic: The Black Claws] - Warlord (Lord of Terror)

 

Troop: Chaos Space Marines x5 (Combi-Bolter on Champ, Reaper Chaincannon)

Troop: Chaos Space Marines x5 (Combi-Bolter on Champ, Reaper Chaincannon)

Troop: Chaos Space Marines x5 (Combi-Bolter on Champ, Reaper Chaincannon)

 

Fast Attack: Raptors x5 (Combi-Plasma, Plasmagunx2, Icon of Despair [Mark of Nurgle])

Fast Attack: Raptors x5 (Combi-Melta, Meltagunx2, Icon of Despair [Mark of Nurgle])

Fast Attack: Warp Talons x5 (Lightning Clawsx2)

Fast Attack: Warp Talons x5 (Lightning Clawsx2)

 

Heavy Support: Hellforged Scorpius

Heavy Support: Hellforged Scorpius

 

Battalion +1 Command Points

Faction: Chaos Space Marines (Night Lords)

 

HQ: Chaos Lord

 

Elite: Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought (Chainclaws and Soulburners x2)

Elite: Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought (Butcher Cannon x2)

Elite: Hellforged Sicaran (3 heavy Bolters)

Total: 1991

 

With a contemptor with dual Butcher Cannons, if I kill a SINGLE model from any unit (very easy with the 8 shots of S8 AP-1 D2) that's -2 to their Leadership stat right off the bat, then the negatives from the Raptors and Jump Pack Lord kick in, and even if I don't KILL ANYTHING ELSE, a 5-man Squad of Marines has to roll leadership because Leadership 8-2(Butcher Cannon)-5 (Raptors+Icons and any other unit) means that 5-man unit of Space Marines has..... Leadership 1.

 

Burn those 2 Command Points for Insane Bravery, or lose a 4-man squad by only taking a single casualty.

 

And using Trevak's comment about Orks with my list:

 

30 Ork boyz. A contemptor with a Butcher Cannon has, as I previously said, 8 shots of S8 AP-1 D2, hitting on 3s. On average, that's at least 4 dead orks (-2 LD from one model dying, this will be relevant). Then any of my other guns, like say... 3 heavy bolters on my Sicaran (9 shots of S5 AP-1), kills another 5-6 boyz. Then the Marine squads (10 bolter shots and 8 heavy bolter equivalent shots out to 24" if they don't move)....

 

TL;DR: With the Night Lords Legion trait, debuffs to the LD roll from losses, you can still get that 30-Ork strong blob of Boyz to take morale failures VERY EASILY.

 

The only army it doesn't work on is, again, Tyranids. Who are Fearless when in synapse.

[Captain Incompetence]

I usually play my CSM as Night Lords and it's never really given me any game-changing benefit in all my games. Maybe one or two GEQ run away due to it every two or three games. It seems that Games Workshop thought that they needed to make the morale phase easier to manage and faster to go through, however they then realised that losing models in the morale phase wasn't fun so they basically just gave everyone that 2CP auto-pass strategem and made any army that could (or should) be susceptible to morale have build-in mechanics to lessen it to the point it never really plays a role in the game, or just avoid it all together.

 

It also doesn't help that leadership isn't really used outside of the morale-phase either except for the occasional psychic power. I'd personally have liked to see players having to roll a leadership-test if they wish to retreat their units from combat or stuff like Guardsmen needing to take a leadership test to see if they receive their orders. There's plenty of things you could have work on leadership besides the morale phase, but I guess GW wants to keep everything very simple and straight-forward, which I can understand and appreciate aswell. Unfortunately this means negative leadership penalties are pretty much neglectible in 8th edition all together.

[Tyriks]

BL have a stratagem for one of their specialist detachments that makes every model killed by a unit count as two models for morale purposes. Making that the NL trait would make it significantly better.

[techsoldaten]

Calling all Night Lords players:

 

I want to have a discussion about the morale phase, and how useful it’s been in your games.

What I’m looking for: a discussion of the moral phase and anecdotal references to the morale phase in your games, whether good bad or neutral.

 

What I’m not looking for: theory crafting about how damaging a stacked -10 penalty is by people who have never tried to execute the plan.

 

Facing Night Lords, my Black Legion has sometimes suffered. I used to play a gunline, they would deep strike and take out my Cultist screens. If the screens were not immune to morale from Abaddon, they would usually be destroyed.

 

Using Night Lords as a detachment (never as a full army) I've been able to screw with Tau and Dark Eldar a little bit. The morale modifier added a couple lost models from low-model count units.

 

The morale modifier is not a game changer, it makes up for an overall lack of offense. It takes Raptors from sub-par to decent against the right units.

[MegaVolt87]

@Geradas, I dunno man that one butcher contemptor looks pretty alone for a key part of the negative Ld strat. Also would look to replace that plasma with melta, you don't need the plasma since you can blender the enemy infantry more than enough, the melta would help you out more. I think dropping one warp talon unit to boost up the stock lord to a hammer lord with jump pack might be enough points to also add in the meta. Melee dread easily swapped out for another butcher dread. 

[ChazSexington]

You're pretty much there, OP. I've never used Night Lords, but from all I've heard, it doesn't work. Treat it as a bonus rather than a game plan.

 

 

 

(Not a Night Lord player) it seems pretty useless because everybody either takes units too small to be affected by moral (msu) or have built in ways for moral immunity (guard commisars, gangbanger fungus monsters being gangbangers and mobbing up, tyranids being fearless hordes while in synapse)

Nightlords should just be able to turn those protections off (with the exception to the Tyranids, as that's actually pretty fluffy).

Nightlords should be a hard counter to guard blobs, require the commisars to kill more guys to keep them in line and in doing so maybe cause them to still route (or kill the commisar).

It's actually quite easy for Night Lords to kill Commissars. Unless the Guard player completely 100% bubble-wraps their Commissar, a Jump Pack unit (either a single HQ or a squad of Raptors/Warp Talons) can gib that Commissar in one fight phase.

 

Also, regarding the Orks: Every model you kill adds to the LD test. As I explain further down, that LD 30 mob of Ork boys? Still gonna have to take morale tests because they have, on average, T-shirt saves and a strong breeze can kill them.

 

Now, to answer your question Kain:

It seems from a quick glance that how the game is played means that the Night Lords' ability doesn't work too much on most armies. And while I've yet to play any games with my Night Lords (waiting until they're all painted), I've realized that my standard build would FORCE my opponent to deal with the Legion trait, either by using the Stratagem, or taking only MSUs. AND EVEN THEN, the MSU tactic..... doesn't completely work, as I'll explain further down.

 

Just for reference, this is my current planned out 2k list:

Battalion +5 Command Points (-1 for Specialist Detachment: Host Raptorial)
Faction: Chaos Space Marines (Night Lords)

HQ1: Sorcerer with Jump Pack (Force Axe)
HQ2: Chaos Lord with Jump Pack (Lightning Clawsx2) [Relic: The Black Claws] - Warlord (Lord of Terror)

Troop: Chaos Space Marines x5 (Combi-Bolter on Champ, Reaper Chaincannon)
Troop: Chaos Space Marines x5 (Combi-Bolter on Champ, Reaper Chaincannon)
Troop: Chaos Space Marines x5 (Combi-Bolter on Champ, Reaper Chaincannon)

Fast Attack: Raptors x5 (Combi-Plasma, Plasmagunx2, Icon of Despair [Mark of Nurgle])
Fast Attack: Raptors x5 (Combi-Melta, Meltagunx2, Icon of Despair [Mark of Nurgle])
Fast Attack: Warp Talons x5 (Lightning Clawsx2)
Fast Attack: Warp Talons x5 (Lightning Clawsx2)

Heavy Support: Hellforged Scorpius
Heavy Support: Hellforged Scorpius

 

Battalion +1 Command Points
Faction: Chaos Space Marines (Night Lords)

 

HQ: Chaos Lord

 

Elite: Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought (Chainclaws and Soulburners x2)
Elite: Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought (Butcher Cannon x2)
Elite: Hellforged Sicaran (3 heavy Bolters)

Total: 1991

 

With a contemptor with dual Butcher Cannons, if I kill a SINGLE model from any unit (very easy with the 8 shots of S8 AP-1 D2) that's -2 to their Leadership stat right off the bat, then the negatives from the Raptors and Jump Pack Lord kick in, and even if I don't KILL ANYTHING ELSE, a 5-man Squad of Marines has to roll leadership because Leadership 8-2(Butcher Cannon)-5 (Raptors+Icons and any other unit) means that 5-man unit of Space Marines has..... Leadership 1.

 

Burn those 2 Command Points for Insane Bravery, or lose a 4-man squad by only taking a single casualty.

 

And using Trevak's comment about Orks with my list:
 

30 Ork boyz. A contemptor with a Butcher Cannon has, as I previously said, 8 shots of S8 AP-1 D2, hitting on 3s. On average, that's at least 4 dead orks (-2 LD from one model dying, this will be relevant). Then any of my other guns, like say... 3 heavy bolters on my Sicaran (9 shots of S5 AP-1), kills another 5-6 boyz. Then the Marine squads (10 bolter shots and 8 heavy bolter equivalent shots out to 24" if they don't move)....

 

TL;DR: With the Night Lords Legion trait, debuffs to the LD roll from losses, you can still get that 30-Ork strong blob of Boyz to take morale failures VERY EASILY.

 

The only army it doesn't work on is, again, Tyranids. Who are Fearless when in synapse.

 

 

It's not easy to take out commissars - there's always plenty of guardsmen to stop you from going there, and they just need four living guardsmen in the assault phase to guarantee his survival. 

You're using Butcher Cannons and a significant amount of fire power on a single squad of boyz. That leaves 60 boyz. The points efficiency is simply not there. 553 points if you include all the point costs (that's 3 squads of CSMs, with 1 it's 399) to neutralise 210+ points. And if you don't kill every last boy, they'll just autopass on morale and Green Tide.

[Espresso]

I prefer the "remove one additional model..." it works better in the occasion that something actually runs. In the tournament I have played the Iconoclast rule allowed me to remove the last two models from a SM Scout squad. 

 

As it is, the morale phase is an afterthought and the impact it has on the game is minimal. Most of the core chapters/clans/etc. have usually +1 to Leadership or they reroll the failed checks. Add to this the armies with a very high Ld or plain fearless and it is clear that the mechanic does not work as intended. 

 

Honestly, if any units actually run in the Morale phase are usually the CSM ones, from Cultists, to Daemons to Chaos Space Marines.

[Gederas]

You're pretty much there, OP. I've never used Night Lords, but from all I've heard, it doesn't work. Treat it as a bonus rather than a game plan.

 

With a contemptor with dual Butcher Cannons, if I kill a SINGLE model from any unit (very easy with the 8 shots of S8 AP-1 D2) that's -2 to their Leadership stat right off the bat, then the negatives from the Raptors and Jump Pack Lord kick in, and even if I don't KILL ANYTHING ELSE, a 5-man Squad of Marines has to roll leadership because Leadership 8-2(Butcher Cannon)-5 (Raptors+Icons and any other unit) means that 5-man unit of Space Marines has..... Leadership 1.

 

Burn those 2 Command Points for Insane Bravery, or lose a 4-man squad by only taking a single casualty.

 

And using Trevak's comment about Orks with my list:

 

30 Ork boyz. A contemptor with a Butcher Cannon has, as I previously said, 8 shots of S8 AP-1 D2, hitting on 3s. On average, that's at least 4 dead orks (-2 LD from one model dying, this will be relevant). Then any of my other guns, like say... 3 heavy bolters on my Sicaran (9 shots of S5 AP-1), kills another 5-6 boyz. Then the Marine squads (10 bolter shots and 8 heavy bolter equivalent shots out to 24" if they don't move)....

 

TL;DR: With the Night Lords Legion trait, debuffs to the LD roll from losses, you can still get that 30-Ork strong blob of Boyz to take morale failures VERY EASILY.

 

The only army it doesn't work on is, again, Tyranids. Who are Fearless when in synapse.

It's not easy to take out commissars - there's always plenty of guardsmen to stop you from going there, and they just need four living guardsmen in the assault phase to guarantee his survival. 

 

You're using Butcher Cannons and a significant amount of fire power on a single squad of boyz. That leaves 60 boyz. The points efficiency is simply not there. 553 points if you include all the point costs (that's 3 squads of CSMs, with 1 it's 399) to neutralise 210+ points. And if you don't kill every last boy, they'll just autopass on morale and Green Tide.

'twas merely using it as an example.

 

Realistically, the Night Lords' Legion Trait isn't something you should specifically build around. But playing them fluffy, picking apart the foes one by one and taking out the leaders... That's when the trait's bonus really comes into play.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

One trick to stretch your usage of it out a bit is not to build one giant stack of debuffs, but to debuff multiple units. It sidesteps the auto pass strat, and the more checks they make the higher likelihood they have of botching one.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I've had it work well for me a few times. Particurlarly against Necrons when I get some good damage (made a couple of wraiths run once) and also against my friend's astartes, sometimes he'll do the reroll for know no fear and end up with a worse result. I've made a Centurion run and that felt good as well as a couple of terminators. Overall though I find it is just a nice little to have bonus and not something to be relied upon, if anything it helps put abit of CP pressure on my opponent to spend that 2CP for auto immune.

[Schlitzaf]

Also on the note of Commissar; Commissar doesn’t hand out fearless he hands out his leadership. So assuming Raptors + Icon of Nurgle, is a -2 so he’ll be handing out LD6. And if you kill 6ish gaurdsman they (21 Attacks, 14 hit, then 9.32 wounds killing on average 6. Meaning you just wiped a whole squad on average. Even if they are by a Commissar Lord).

[Doom Herald]

Also on the note of Commissar; Commissar doesn’t hand out fearless he hands out his leadership. So assuming Raptors + Icon of Nurgle, is a -2 so he’ll be handing out LD6. And if you kill 6ish gaurdsman they (21 Attacks, 14 hit, then 9.32 wounds killing on average 6. Meaning you just wiped a whole squad on average. Even if they are by a Commissar Lord).

Don't Commisar's deal mortal wounds on nearby IG units to auto-pass morale?

[Kain Mor]

No the guard player can slay a model (not a mortal wound) and they then have to retake the test.

[Doom Herald]

No the guard player can slay a model (not a mortal wound) and they then have to retake the test.

Well, I've been being cheated by guard players it seems.

[Kain Mor]

 

No the guard player can slay a model (not a mortal wound) and they then have to retake the test.

Well, I've been being cheated by guard players it seems.

It may be an honest mistake of playing out of the codex instead of reading the FAQs if they’re a newer player, because that is pretty much how it worked on release