Raven Guard Retex and tactica

[casb1965]

Hmmm, that's an interesting interpretation of Trifold Path, I've read it that you give it to your Warlord and thus it has to be taking at list making (i.e. when you name your Warlord), not when you use a stratagem to make someone become a "quasi-warlord".

[faithonwings]

It is very common to do so. And I think as a lot of people use battlescribe they will use the stratagem at the time the build the list. Using fixed stratagy for their lists.

 

Let's just say I enjoy challeging what is common.

[casb1965]

Just reading the rule again is says "Use this stratagem after nominating a RAVEN GUARD CHARACTER model that is not a named character to be your Warlord." that to me falls clearly in pre-game step 1 of the ITC rules.

[faithonwings]

Just reading the rule again is says "Use this stratagem after nominating a RAVEN GUARD CHARACTER model that is not a named character to be your Warlord." that to me falls clearly in pre-game step 1 of the ITC rules.

 

Cant argue about ITC rules. Don't use them, don't know them. If their rules specifically says so then I'll have to take you'r word for it.

 

If this the exact wording of the stratagem than in BRB missions I think it's allowed. 10 minutes after declaring you'r warlord is still after nominating you'r warlord. 3 hours after declaring you'r warlord is still after nominating you'r warlord. 3 days etc... etc.. 

 

If it was meant to be used immeditaly after declaring you'r warlord a better wording would have been "use this stratagem immeditaly after declaring you'r warlord" or "use this stratagem at the time you'r declaring you'r warlord'" Again, an FAQ would make it clear what the intend of the strategem is. But for now, if anyone I play against would try to use it against me (not ITC format, for obvious reasons) I would allow it. 

[duz_]

Looks like another one to wait for the FAQ on or send to the OR.

[Nusquam]

All these threads even has me confused where I am.

 

 

For relics, I'm doing a double Battalion and a flyer wing at 2k. Ex Tenebris is an auto for me. Phobos captain in turn between master crafting or Korvidari bolts. Silentus pistol never fell in range for me.

 

What relics do people like?

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like ex tenebris is always going to be the free relic, but I'm a big fan of oppressors end too. My phobos captain with OE didn't manage to kill any characters (some bad luck on shadowstep) but he mowed through 10 fire dragons and 5 avengers so at least he made his points back. The phobos captain at least gets some melee bite with OE and is a much more well rounded unit as a result.

[ShinyRhino]

I feel like ex tenebris is always going to be the free relic, but I'm a big fan of oppressors end too. My phobos captain with OE didn't manage to kill any characters (some bad luck on shadowstep) but he mowed through 10 fire dragons and 5 avengers so at least he made his points back. The phobos captain at least gets some melee bite with OE and is a much more well rounded unit as a result.

That's a good point. Phobos Captain has a ton of attacks, giving those some punch via the relic knife provides options.

[chapter master 454]

Just throwing out a funsy idea to use for if you want to go in on Leadership silliness though granted most is doable with most chapters, it just feels right with raven guard (and if you don't want to be heretics to do the morale stuff).

 

Realised you could get some serious leadership debuffs going. A phobos lieutenant in Reiver mode can actually have a -3 leadership aura by himself (Fear made Manifest Warlord Trait, Fearsome Aspect Successor Trait and Terror Troops Special rule of Reivers), nothing exactly word ablazing but I did consider the concept with Digital Weapon, purely because causing a mortal wound like that is fun, can help chip one wound from a squad if you rolls are legendary in bad or their saves god good which triggers a morale check at -4 (because of losing 1) which for even marines means losing guys on a 5+.

 

Gets more fun if you start bringing in toys. Terror Troop can stack 3 times by itself however I will only reasonably say up to 2 stacks is reasonable to believe in (and by all accounts, reivers are naturally -2 at that point anyway with fearsome aspect). Bring the relic banner for a 9" leadership bubble debuff (another -1), take the head of the warlord and activate "Decapitating Strike" and now you can have the entire enemy army likely suffering at leader -2/-3 leadership at any given time easy.

 

The actual maximum leadership penalty you can inflict however I believe is something like this:

Fear Made Manifest, Terror Troops X3, Fearsome Aspect, Banner of the Ascendant Emperor (I believe that's the relic banner name), The Darkness (psychic power of Raven Guard, does need to nom one model in the target unit), Decapitating Strike which in total comes to a massive -8 leadership. By all acounts, if you can manage to get to -5 I would certainly say you are doing well.

 

Again, just a funsy thing. Could be good if morale weren't a joke but I suppose that's because there isn't much to it. Still, this could be interesting in a list that intends to hit ever enemy unit for minor losses but for morale to take the bulk of the army away.

[SyNidus]

Just throwing out a funsy idea to use for if you want to go in on Leadership silliness though granted most is doable with most chapters, it just feels right with raven guard (and if you don't want to be heretics to do the morale stuff).

 

Realised you could get some serious leadership debuffs going. A phobos lieutenant in Reiver mode can actually have a -3 leadership aura by himself (Fear made Manifest Warlord Trait, Fearsome Aspect Successor Trait and Terror Troops Special rule of Reivers), nothing exactly word ablazing but I did consider the concept with Digital Weapon, purely because causing a mortal wound like that is fun, can help chip one wound from a squad if you rolls are legendary in bad or their saves god good which triggers a morale check at -4 (because of losing 1) which for even marines means losing guys on a 5+.

 

Gets more fun if you start bringing in toys. Terror Troop can stack 3 times by itself however I will only reasonably say up to 2 stacks is reasonable to believe in (and by all accounts, reivers are naturally -2 at that point anyway with fearsome aspect). Bring the relic banner for a 9" leadership bubble debuff (another -1), take the head of the warlord and activate "Decapitating Strike" and now you can have the entire enemy army likely suffering at leader -2/-3 leadership at any given time easy.

 

The actual maximum leadership penalty you can inflict however I believe is something like this:

Fear Made Manifest, Terror Troops X3, Fearsome Aspect, Banner of the Ascendant Emperor (I believe that's the relic banner name), The Darkness (psychic power of Raven Guard, does need to nom one model in the target unit), Decapitating Strike which in total comes to a massive -8 leadership. By all acounts, if you can manage to get to -5 I would certainly say you are doing well.

 

Again, just a funsy thing. Could be good if morale weren't a joke but I suppose that's because there isn't much to it. Still, this could be interesting in a list that intends to hit ever enemy unit for minor losses but for morale to take the bulk of the army away.

I've tried running this style of list for my night lords and i've got to say, while interesting, it's definitely not a competitive build to base your army on.

 

That being said, when it does work out, and you have multiple enemy units facing down a morale test with -4, -5 LD, you'll feel freaking awesome. Like a true master of terror.

 

Let's see how we could build a list like this.

 

I've gone for Raven Guard chapter because the benefit of the Fearsome aspect is negligible compared to what we get from the RG.

 

2000 Terror List

Battalion:

Shrike - 130

Cap - Raven's Fury, Thunderhammer/SS, Master of Ambush, Imperium's Sword - 143

Phobos Lt - Incursor Build, Ex Tenebris - 81

Aggressors - 6 man - Sgt w Mastercrafted Gauntlets - 222

Primaris Ancient - Std of Emp. Ascendant - 69

Infiltrators - 5 man - 110

Infiltrators - 5 man - 110

Incursors - 5 man - haywire mine - 105

Eliminators - 3 man - snipers - Sgt w Korvidari Bolts - 72

Eliminators - 3 man - snipers - 72

Eliminators - 3 man - snipers - 72

- 1186

 

Battalion:

Phobos Lt - Reiver build, Oppressor's End, Fear made manifest - 75

Phobos Librarian - Shadowstep, The Abyss - 101

Reivers - 7 man - Assault Carbines, Grav Chutes - 126

Reivers - 7 man - Assault Carbines, Grav Chutes - 126

Reivers - 7 man - Assault Carbines, Grav Chutes - 126

Intercessors - 5 man - Stalker Bolters - 85

Intercessors - 5 man - Stalker Bolters - 85

Intercessors - 5 man - Stalker Bolters - 85

- 809

Total: 1995

Starting CPs: 13 - 5 (Relics) -  2 (Extra Warlord Traits) - 2 (SFTS for Reiver LT & Ancient) = 4

 

Deployment:

Reiver Lt, 3x Reivers, Ancient will be deployed in deepstrike. 

Aggressors will go with the Smash Captain in Master of Ambush

Infiltrators are there to push the enemy back and keep them clumped in their deployment zone

Libby & incursors deploy midfield together

Incursor Lt, Intercessors & Eliminators will deploy to deny enemy deepstrikers in the back field and grab objectives

Shrike will start at the line and use his awesome movement to get midfield.

Game Plan:

(Doesn't matter whether turn 1 or turn 2. If you get turn 1, can play aggressively and push up one flank, forcing the opponent to either retreat to the other flank, or commit to the scrum that you've made)

 

Turn 1,

Hold position and pick off whatever characters give LD buffs, while also clearing any deepstriking screens.

 

Turn 2,

Lt, Reivers & Ancient comes down close to where they can debuff multiple units at the same time.

Shrike moves up to give them his re-roll debuff.

Libby uses Shadowstep and Abyss to debuff a key unit.

The idea here is to spread the debuffs and spread the wounds. If all goes according to plan, you should have 2-3 enemy units suffering at least -4 LD. So even killing a model or two can threaten smaller units.

 

Turn 3, Mop up begins.

 

Of course, all this is if everything goes off without a hitch.

 

If your opponent is playing mostly vehicles (knights, etc), then you'll have to hide and make sure you keep enough bodies to claim objectives. You still have enough anti-infantry to kill off their infantry and hinder their scoring capabilities.

 

You've also got a lot of anti-character/sniping options to take out key buffs.

 

The list is also surprisingly tanky because of our chapter tactics and the surprising number of wounds we have.

 

The more i think about it, the more it feels like this list has some potential to work.

[MajorNese]

Since there will be a 1250p tournament in the near future, that will resolve around a central objective, I've come up with a trial list so far.

Details (wargear addons) are just a first version - I have to check if I've overlooked any points, don't have Battlescribe here right now.

 

HQ:

130p Shrike (secondary WL trait, no overwatch)

 70p Primaris Lieutenant (Ex Tenebris, WL, Master of Ambush)

 

Trp:

94p Intercessors (5, autobolt rifle, power sword)

94p Intercessors (5, autobolt rifle, power sword)

95p Incursors (5, no mine)

 

FA:

164p Inceptors (4)

164p Inceptors (4)

 

HS:

72p Eliminators (BSR)

72p Eliminators (BSR)

72p Eliminators (BSR)

 

DT:

112p Razorback (TLLC, storm bolter)

110p Razorback (TLLC)

 

My intention is to have a backfield firebase, consisting of the Eliminators and Razorbacks, buffed by the lieutenant and Shrike at first, who might move up the field later.

The Razorbacks are just the cheapest option for a light battletank - 1W less than a predator, yet 15p cheaper and don't take up HS slots (which I maxed out with the Eliminators already). They are intended to hunt vehicle/monster targets early, and attract every AT around so my Eliminators only receive chaff fire. With 2+ armour (cover) that will hopefully hold for 2 rounds.

Eliminators will probably spend their first turn hunting vehicles, unless there's an inviting character target. Considering they inflict almost the same amount of wounds per point as las-fusil Eliminators, they will help finishing off individual targets that the lascannons failed to kill.

 

Midfield will have Incursors in terrain on/near the central objective. They're not as good as Infiltrators and their anti DS bubble, but they are cheaper, and the Deadly Prize strat doubles as the mine - maybe I'll take the mine also, to make it 2d3 MW for the most important objective of the game. They still get Concealed Positions and Smoke Grenades, meaning they will block any other pre-game shenanigans and, if I have first turn, improve the terrain's -1 to hit to -2 (smoke) or -3 (strat). MoA will be used to get one of the Intercessor squads in position - either if going first to exploit gaps and kill/lock up stuff, or if going second to counter deploy into the midfield. Redeploying the lieutenant is a bonus I don't expect to need all too much, but at least that's a Warlord that sticks back instead of going on a potentially suicidal rampage.

 

To move up the remaining army, the other Intercessor squad will advance and/or use Infiltrators strat, and turn 2 Shrike will jump forward, joining the deep striking Inceptors. At that point, my entire army will be in range of the entire midfield, no shots wasted, enough bodies to stick around. The Inceptors rack up 48 shots S5 AP-2 with Shrike reroll - that should give me enough firepower to clear most of the midfield from anything MEQ or below, and take pressure off the Eliminators if the Razorbacks die. Also Auspex Scan with one Inceptor unit would rack up 8 wounds on MEQ, making a deep striking counter charge costly.

 

From then on, the troops try to survive on the center objective, and Shrike+Inceptors act as fast-moving wrecking ball that will do its work by weight of fire/attacks. Shrike is shielded by the Inceptors, can charge stuff without overwatch, then have the Inceptors join that CC too. Not hard enough to kill monsters/vehicles, but they're safe and inflict some damage, before falling back and continuing to mow down stuff.

 

Any thoughts on how it could be improved, or what could go wrong?

It's a local tournament that bans FW, so I don't expect a triple leviathan IH list.

 

Based on previous games, I'll go all for autobolt rifles instead of regular boltrifles.

They can advance and still fire, have more shots, and AP-1 (turn 2+) on 3 shots will get more work done in most cases than AP-2 on 1 or 2 shots. I've found the Rapid Fire variant unwieldy - no firing if advancing, half shots if moving and not in 15" range, and I intend to use these guys exclusively for midfield skirmishing - advance into terrain, mow down stuff, don't get too close unless mopping up/locking up stuff in CC.

The backfield already has Eliminators and Razorbacks to hold the objectives, as well as the lieutenant as a backup objective holder who cannot be targeted.

[ShinyRhino]

Hmm. I like the Fear build, because I really like Reivers. Does the Vox Espiritum work with the Reiver Lieutenant's Terror Troops rule?

[chapter master 454]

Hmm. I like the Fear build, because I really like Reivers. Does the Vox Espiritum work with the Reiver Lieutenant's Terror Troops rule?

 

Yes it would by the looks of it as it is an Aura. It would actually improve all the auras by 3" so I believe the -1 would be out to 9" and -3 at 6".

 

Also, Synidus. Yea I know it ain't competitive, never intended to be. And I would argue that going Raven Guard hurts the concept. Really, you are at that point just playing raven guard with reivers. Go IN on the concept is what I do, like how I once made a full all heavy weapon list for Iron Hands.

Take that full 30 set of reivers with combat knifes, take fearsome and hungry for battle to get in close, get a set of phobos lieutenants in reiver gear and have them jump in with your reivers and make the enemy scared.

 

You will likely lose a lot because what army doesn't have means of stopping morale except for a select few, but hey when it does work you would feel good about how you only needed to kill a few to win a lot.

 

Again, I have various "modes" of list building. Competitive where I try to create something actually good but I tend to not follow others, I like experimenting. However this is a case of me going full funsy mode and throwing something out there. Again, I just enjoy the concept.

[Nusquam]

Terror troops only stacks up to -3 LD, which is still good but keep that in mind. So if it were to become -4 Terror would fall off bringing it to -3 anyway.

[Archon_77]

All these threads even has me confused where I am.

 

 

For relics, I'm doing a double Battalion and a flyer wing at 2k. Ex Tenebris is an auto for me. Phobos captain in turn between master crafting or Korvidari bolts. Silentus pistol never fell in range for me.

 

What relics do people like?

 

 

I'm very fond of the Armor that reduces Ap -1 to 0 and causes an auto miss on a 1, 2, 3 to wound.  I stick it on my smash capt warlord and let him go toe to toe better with knights and the like. 

[Dracos]

@ Nese

Just curious if you have information on the tournament missions before making suggestions.

[MajorNese]

Not much information so far - it's an inofficial tournament organized by a friend at the local store.

 

There will be 5 objectives. Two in each deployment zone, one center, and when holding at least 3 there will be buffs for the units holding the center. Except for the FW ban, it will not restrict any further than the Rule of 3.

[Dracos]

Not much information so far - it's an inofficial tournament organized by a friend at the local store.

 

There will be 5 objectives. Two in each deployment zone, one center, and when holding at least 3 there will be buffs for the units holding the center. Except for the FW ban, it will not restrict any further than the Rule of 3.

In that case I’m a fan of your list with one exception. The Razorbacks. I would look at more Infantry and a Phobos Librarian - if you have one. It makes it a more all comers list and doesn’t give your opponent a obvious target for heavy weapons. Mileage may vary because Assault-Backs are good, I just think Aggressors Deep Striking from the Shadows would get similar result in long run andnplaynwithnyour opponents head.

[MajorNese]

While I agree that the razorbacks look out of place and are an obvious target, I think I'll get more mileage out of them than stocking up on infantry. Considering I'm hitting primaris company levels, using aggressors and a phobos libby would be no problem, but it leaves me with 2 gaps:

 

1. Especially in the early game, I need AT to take out vehicles/monsters. Everything except for the Eliminators is 1D, and taking out a transport/artillery/battletank or two would help me get by until reserves hit. Once everything is on the board, weight of fire and tying up stuff in CC should help.

 

A phobos libby would add buffs and throw around a few MWs, but that's hardly going to dent something big. Aggressors deep striking in turn 2 would give me nothing the Inceptors aren't capable of too, just less flexible than the Shrikeceptor bomb. And Hellblasters/Suppressors would be nowhere near as hard to take out as Razorbacks, at regular primaris statline.

 

2. The Razorbacks act as an obvious target for every AT on the board...and that is the intention. If I were my opponent, and there were no vehicle on the board, I'd instantly aim all lascannons at the Eliminators. A 1+ save and -1 to hit might be great against chaff fire, but a lascannon to the face is a rather reliable and quick way to get rid of these guys. Unlike Intercessors/Incursors, Eliminators are a true threat, and would be number one on the target priority.

 

Having a pair of absolutely obvious target bricks with big guns should do the trick, and distract from the Eliminators. Usually I use Tarantulas for that, but FW is banned, and Razorbacks seem the best combo of cheap and regular vehicle statline, combined with AT weaponry. Once the opponent's vehicles are damaged, taken out or locked in CC, I won't miss my Razorbacks. But the Eliminators in contrast are the allrounder guys to help win the game - take out characters that would swing the midfield (while the battle rages around them), take out objective campers out of LoS, take out key units with good enough invul/toughness that other units struggle with.

 

You might have experienced this a few times - many games, after the midfield is a mess of scattered remaining units, there are just a few "artillery" type units left that gradually mop up the field. You can't touch them due to lack of range and proximity, and they continue to wipe out what's left over the turns 3 to 5-7. I intend to have my Eliminators left for that - kill every character daring to get into LoS, damage units out of LoS, and not being locked to a specific target type by Guided Aim. But they do have to survive that long, so I have to have a replacement target.

[Kouran]

For AT  in a list at 1800 points I have used so far two stormtalons (twin las cannon) and a whirlwind scorpius with okish results in a few games. First turn the two birds tag with our Chapter Master to take the best use of the devastator doctrine and chapter master aura, with great success at turn 1, after that their performance descends but first turn it's brutal with all the to hit rerolls, nearly perfect line of sight to anything on the battlefield and in range. Also their scary performance on first turn drives them all the attraction and with the -1 to hit and the toughness 7 and in cover thanks being RG makes them surprisingly durable.  Even so I will try your Razorback route instead of this because it's cheap and leaves me more points free to play with.

[Kouran]

 

All these threads even has me confused where I am.

 

 

For relics, I'm doing a double Battalion and a flyer wing at 2k. Ex Tenebris is an auto for me. Phobos captain in turn between master crafting or Korvidari bolts. Silentus pistol never fell in range for me.

 

What relics do people like?

 

 

I'm very fond of the Armor that reduces Ap -1 to 0 and causes an auto miss on a 1, 2, 3 to wound.  I stick it on my smash capt warlord and let him go toe to toe better with knights and the like. 

 

 

I'm curious how do you use your Captain, If you give him the armor relic you are not using on him our jump pack relic. What warlord trait do you use? The one that gives similar abilities than the jump pack? 

[Archon_77]

I usually go with Master of Ambush, and drop him very near whatever he took with him.  Helps with rerolls for shooting (bonus if I have the CP to make him a Chapter Master) and also gives him a screen to not be targeted with shooting.  Additionally, since I usually take Devcents they are a scary target and draw a lot of fire off him.  I have also had some success putting him out of LOS or in Ruins.  I use him not as a first term alpha striker, but as a 2nd turn threat.  If there is something that HAS to die and is super killy, I'll sometimes also Trifold path a Shadowmaster addition for even more durability.  He rarely gets into a fight without a few wounds, but the Armor's durability makes sure he gets to where he needs to be when he needs to be there.  Hes still very offensive but I love the layered defense of a 3++ and ignoring those 1,2,3's.   He also is able to soak a LOT of fire if the enemy chooses to focus on only him, taking pressure off my Eliminators.

[Dracos]

@ Nese: sounds like a well thought out plan that has considered the options. I was concerned about Psychic phase a bit but you know your Meta. I’m particularly anxious to see how your Troops work out (I’m building my Battalions in same manner but with Mines and Bolt Rifles - Personal choice. I concede the ABR is better choice in a scrum). Best of luck and as Race says “Pics or it didn’t happen ;)”

[MajorNese]

Psychic phase is not that strong over here. Otherwise I'd be more inclined to include a libby.

And bolt rifles were my previous favorite, and still strong when staying in the back. Just for walking up the midfield, they are not exactly ideal.

 

First there has to be a new date for the tournament - it should have been this weekend, but the TO can't make it. So it will rather be next month, giving me enough time to actually build and paint the autobolters, incursors and two missing inceptors. And a marker for the mine, in case I decide to use it instead of some wargear upgrades.

[Kouran]

I usually go with Master of Ambush, and drop him very near whatever he took with him.  Helps with rerolls for shooting (bonus if I have the CP to make him a Chapter Master) and also gives him a screen to not be targeted with shooting.  Additionally, since I usually take Devcents they are a scary target and draw a lot of fire off him.  I have also had some success putting him out of LOS or in Ruins.  I use him not as a first term alpha striker, but as a 2nd turn threat.  If there is something that HAS to die and is super killy, I'll sometimes also Trifold path a Shadowmaster addition for even more durability.  He rarely gets into a fight without a few wounds, but the Armor's durability makes sure he gets to where he needs to be when he needs to be there.  Hes still very offensive but I love the layered defense of a 3++ and ignoring those 1,2,3's.   He also is able to soak a LOT of fire if the enemy chooses to focus on only him, taking pressure off my Eliminators.

 

Thanks Archon! I also use MoA on him with the jump pack relic and as a secondary WL trait I use the one that denies overwatch and deploy it with Agressors instead of DevCent, same idea as you, but instead of the armor I use the jet pack because it let's me go deeper  inside the enemy lines to pick the most juicy target. It's less durable (almost suicidal) but has a larger threat range.