Eliminators

[Archon_77]

Just bought three boxes of these bad boys and I'm really on the fence about going with Las Fusil or Regular sniper rifles.  All my thoughts come to the same conclusion, is the AT provided better or worse than another layer of character sniping?  I'd like to pick the brains of the forum on this matter. As I have no one locally to bounce ideas off of, and any talk of Regular (Non RG) Eliminators really can't compare due to our CT's.

 

Also, thoughts on mixed units?  2 Regular and Sgt. with Las?  2 Las one Regular?   Any combo thereof?

[Bluflash]

Since you're going RG, I think the bolt rifles are the way to go.

 

T2 you will be getting 9 shots hitting and wounding most HQs on 2s with mortals on 5s. Against non chars you get 6 shots same profile. The mortals really help when punching up or against strong invuls.

[ShinyRhino]

What else do you have for anti tank?

 

I faced an Ultramarines army this past weekend that used two squads of Las Fusil Eliminators. We played on a terrain heavy board with tons of LOS blocking terrain.

 

My opponent spent the whole game in Devastator Doctrine, so the fusils and his Suppressors benefited. It was a wash because of our CT giving me cover that negated the Doctrine bonus.

 

If he'd had snipers instead, they'd have had more targets but probably killed less. He mostly used his fusils to do final damage to my Speeders and knock down single Primaris infantry models.

 

Raven Guard won't be spending the game in Devastator Doctrine, unless you face a vehicle heavy list. So, it really comes down to what else you have for anti tank. If not much, take fusils. If you've got plenty else, take the snipers.

[seriade]

If your going with 3 squads 2 with sniper rifles 1 with fusils seems the way to go.

[Dracos]

I'm with Bluflash. If you value the RG Super Doctrine then I can't imagine living anywhere but the Tactical Zone as long as possible. 

 

That said, point for point they are more valuable than a Heavy Plasma Incinerators which do less reliable damage. :( (GW really needs to get a fix for Hellblasters imo, I thinking of trading in mt painted Hellblasters just because they don't so the work of a Las Fusil that cost the same - why GW why?))

 

But as others wills say if it's your only way to handle Knights and vehicles you might want to go all in on Las Fusil. As another Chapter I'd give it serious consideration, as a Raven Guard Successor I'm going with two units of Sniper Rifles and letting my Plasma-ceptors, Aggressors and Centurions chase down the Big Boys.

[Archon_77]

What about inter unit? 

 

Sgt. With Las and other two with Snipers perhaps?  You get that 2+ to hit when you need it for character sniping and SOME AT....  or better to go all or nothing?

[ShinyRhino]

What about inter unit?

 

Sgt. With Las and other two with Snipers perhaps? You get that 2+ to hit when you need it for character sniping and SOME AT.... or better to go all or nothing?

Im not sure one S8, AP -3, 3 Dmg shot is going to do much by itself. I think most folks are either taking the carbine or homogeneous squads.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Bolt snipers x 3 imo.

 

If you do go fusils, you go 2x fusil and 1x carbine.

[MajorNese]

I'd say go for snipers all the way.

Since you already got the multipart boxes, you might also get some shadowspear ones for cheap, and build las-fusils with the spare multipart ones.

 

This is our prime source of anti-char (that's a word now here) - S5 wounds better than all those S4 sniper rifles, it boosts MW, has multi damage and enough AP to go down to the invul save of most characters (unlike scout snipers with AP0 in tac doctrine). It can even ignore LoS, which is (except for the korvidari bolt) unique against characters. The notion of having these around is enough for local DE players to hate my guys, and having multiple squads gives redundancy and board coverage.

 

In contrast, while las-fusils seem efficient at their job, we can definitely say we have other sources of AT in our codex.

But nothing comes close to bolt snipers when it comes to threatening characters.

[Bluflash]

What else do you have for anti tank?

 My 2k toolbox list, still rather untested, is as follows:

2 Brigades

RG Successor, Stealthy, Master Artisan

 

Phobos Cap - WL - Marksmans Honors - Crvidiae Bolts

Phobos LT - Ex Tenebris

Cap on Bike - SS/Teeth of Terra, Chapter Master, Hero of Chapter- Master of Ambush

Techmarine - C-beam

 

2 units 5x Scouts, Sgt with boltgun and sniper

2 units 5x Intercessors, bolt rifle

2 units 5x Infiltrators w/com units

 

1 unit 4x Assault Cents w/hurricane bolters and siege drills

2 units of Invictor war suits with auto-cannon

 

3 units of eliminators, bolt rifle

 

2 Contemptor Mortis Dreads, quad las cannon

1 Thunderfire cannon

 

Dreads, Techmarine, and Thunderfire are back line arty.

 

Invictors deploy middle, 10" move will let them move up and get into chapter master bubble if going first, or hold in middle if going second.

Bike cap and Cents either deploy aggressive if first, or hold midground with Invictors. Bike cap has movement to suicide into a back line character T2 if needed, won't give up Slay VP.

Elims are anti-char/elite.

Infiltrators placed out of los if needed to prevent deep strikes or deployed on objectives or as reserve screen.

Scouts are cheap movement screen/objective holders

Intecessors go where needed, unlikely but could Infiltrate strat to move them to midfield if setting up gunline defense.

Phobos Cap and Lt deploy where their bubbles will be most useful. With Dreads if facing heavy vehicle, Infantry lines if horde, Elims if heavy character.

 

While the list has limited amounts of volume shooting, Master Artisans, Comms units, HQs', and Chapter Master bubble makes the list very accurate, and because most of the list have relatively long range weaponry, almost every unit is contributing every turn (I've yet to test the Cent's which just replaced an Invictor due to MoA)

Lots of scout deploy allows me to take the best/most important locations on the board from turn 1, and between the TFC and scout screen can do a lot of movement blocking.

Biggest hurdle so far has been against flyers becuase I have limited ways to slow them down.

[dode74]

 

 

Phobos Cap - WL - Marksmans Honors - Crvidiae Bolts

I'm not 100% sure MH works with KB.  MH states it "does not work with Relics" (as opposed to Relic weapons, which KB are not) which suggests you'd have to choose to either use MH or use KB profiles each time.

 

Otherwise that's an interesting list.  I like the idea of the SmashCap on the bike to get the extra T and W since MoA means he doesn't have to worry about moving through ruins.  My only concern is him not being able to FLY might see him get trapped in combat.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Are the regular versions really that good? What bullet mode should I be using? I have the ones from Shadowspear and I like the models, but I thought the las-fusils would be auto-take since Primaris units are wanting for decent heavy weaponry outside the Executioner tank and Hellblasters. The multi-piece ones I'll probably make las-fusils, but I think the pose for shooting the pistol has no las-fusil variant unfortunately.

[MajorNese]

Yes, it's that good, wounding the usual T3-4 infantry on 2+, as well as MW on 5+, makes them good at taking out key infantry units if no character target is present.

And against characters, there is currently no better weapon in the game when factoring in the RG bonus.

 

During turn 1 or against non-characters, always take Guided Aim with the multidamage ammo (they switched the name with the ignore cover ammo when going from booklet to codex).

Turn 2+ against chars, RG bonus does the same as Guided Aim, at that point Guided Aim is unnecessary.

 

And yes, primaris have little pure AT currently. But while las-fusils are good, every unit of las-fusil means there is one less unit of snipers. If your opponent wants these guys dead, they can maybe spare enough heavier fire to wipe out a unit or maybe two, but I'll go for maximum coverage so they can't kill them all before I kill their key characters.

 

That's what our army can do better than any other in the game right now, take out relic bearers/WL traiters, bubble/buff chars, smash captains etc. that would have been effectively untouchable to anyone else. In the age of herohammer, that can be a game changer that no one is prepared for, taking out key abilities early. Eliminators are far more effective than sniper scouts (S4 AP0, seriously?), and self-buffing means they are effective from turn 1 on. All other sniper units, including the relics, are just S4 and simply not reliable before turn 2.

[Hiroitchi]

I currently field 3 Eliminator Squads, 1x squad with Bolt Rilfes, 1x squad with an instigator and the rest bolt rilfe, 1x sqaud with an instigator and the rest las fusils. I have yet to play with em and just thought they look cool that way.

[dode74]

I'm curious why people are taking the instigators.  They add the ability to retreat from a charge, but that's the only ability they add.  At 24" I don't think they add enough to the squad for the points to see them as viable.

[Bluflash]

 

 

Phobos Cap - WL - Marksmans Honors - Crvidiae Bolts

I'm not 100% sure MH works with KB.

It doesn't, but it gives him the choice of 4 damage at 30", or 3 damage at 36 and out of LOS. Him plus the elims firing executioner rounds should still average a support character kill at 36" even if the opponent is Los blocking.

In truth, I needed a WL trait for the Phobos cap, and none of the other options seemed useful.

 

As to the bike cap, between his 8 attacks, 4 attacks per cent, and 5 per invictor. That's a lot of high str, high damage, melee. Sure he can get tied up, but unlike a smash cap, he doesn't have to suicide charge a knight/lynchpin to be useful. Just giving the invictors and cents reroll all is gonna justify his points pretty quickly.

[dode74]

That's fair enough on the Phobos Cap.  I thought it would be a choice rather than both together.

 

Not sure why a smash cap has to suicide charge a knight/lynchpin to be useful any more than the bike cap does.  I totally agree he's at least as useful as a buffing unit for the Cents/Invictors as he is in any other role, but you can "Smash" Cap for 103 with ToT/SS, which is only 5 more than the Bike Cap for the ability to not get trapped and lose those sweet, sweet rerolls.

[seriade]

The seargent for at least the lasfusil unit should almost always make sure they hit on 2s so his gun is irrelevant that one just provides the bonus of allowing them to run away.  The same choice for the sniper rifle squad is pure utility if you dont have it you will have that unit further away and safer if you do have it that unit can move up grab an objective and be able to retreat when needed.   As for why the jump pack over the bike its simple unless your a certain type of deathwatch biker you can not go into a building with the bike.  So having your combat character stonewalled for any reason is a bad thing.

[Bluflash]

Yeah, I'll admit I'm back and forth on bike vs jet pack, but I've found the T5 and extra wound on top of the 3++ makes him more survivable as well as giving him twin bolt guns to contribute his BS2 in the shooting phase. I've yet to have a game where having a jet pack would have been more favorable, but its definitely still a point for testing. If all else fails, for 2 CP he can fall back, shoot, and charge. And while Imperial soup is changing, him not being an infantry character makes him a much less attractive target for vindicare snipers (my local meta has a few).
 

As to the elims, if going fusils, I agree the carbine is a good call, or if you plan on using them as forward deployed screen. I think mid- deployed triple Bolt Snipers is a better choice generally, especially for RG.

[ValourousHeart]

I'm curious why people are taking the instigators.  They add the ability to retreat from a charge, but that's the only ability they add.  At 24" I don't think they add enough to the squad for the points to see them as viable.

 

The IBC actually adds several things to the unit, not just the retreat option.

 

First off, with targets more than 24 inches away, you will always make use of the +1 to hit and +1 wound ability for the squad.  If you take either the sniper or the las fusil on the sarg you will always be weighing that rule against taking the extra shot.

 

Second, it is a D2 shot that can target characters.  So if you have the rest of the squad armed with las fusils you can chose between giving them the rule above or you can shoot a nearby wounded character to take them off the table.  Which adds a nice tactical flexibility since your las fusils can't target characters.

 

Third, it is an assault weapon, which means that if you have to reposition your snipers to get a better shot next turn, the unit can advance to get to the best position and still manage to do some damage that turn.

 

And that doesn't even touch on the ability to fall back 6 inches after shooting overwatch.  So if the charging unit was 7 inches or more away to begin with, they now failed their charge.  And if it was less than a 7 inch charge to start with, it turns an easy charge into a difficult one.

[dode74]

First - yes, but having the BR gives you the option.  I don't see taking away options as a good thing.

 

Second - true enough.  I see the point with the Las Fusil but not with the BR.

 

Third - this is entirely true.  I guess I don't see myself doing that sort of thing that often though.

 

The fall back thing is the main use ofc - perhaps I am being a bit optimistic but it is another thing I don't see myself doing often.

 

Thanks though - good to understand other people's thought processes even if I don't entirely agree with their decisions.

[MajorNese]

 

First off, with targets more than 24 inches away, you will always make use of the +1 to hit and +1 wound ability for the squad.  If you take either the sniper or the las fusil on the sarg you will always be weighing that rule against taking the extra shot.

Once you do the math, there is no reason to weighting that.

 

 

Second, it is a D2 shot that can target characters.  So if you have the rest of the squad armed with las fusils you can chose between giving them the rule above or you can shoot a nearby wounded character to take them off the table.  Which adds a nice tactical flexibility since your las fusils can't target characters.

Bolt sniper rifle goes up to 4D and wounds typical characters better than the runaway gun. If you really need to finish off a character, this is simply more reliable since the sarge is the only one who can't be buffed by Guided Aim.

 

Third agreed. Though advancing means you hit on 4+ and wound T4 characters on 4+, which is not exactly reliable.

 

Fourth, yes...but in all those discussions I still wonder why anyone plans on having their snipers in charge range. Or, in case of the IH forum, actively using them to block and kite stuff. Which you should totally do, with dudes that can fire over half the board.

[ValourousHeart]

First - yes, but having the BR gives you the option.  I don't see taking away options as a good thing.

 

Second - true enough.  I see the point with the Las Fusil but not with the BR.

 

Third - this is entirely true.  I guess I don't see myself doing that sort of thing that often though.

 

The fall back thing is the main use ofc - perhaps I am being a bit optimistic but it is another thing I don't see myself doing often.

 

Thanks though - good to understand other people's thought processes even if I don't entirely agree with their decisions.

 

 I don't follow your first point.  Every option adds and takes away the units ability to do something.  Sniper give 3 weapon profiles, but doesn't allow unit to fall back from a charge.  Las Fusil gives higher strength and d3 but doesn't allow targeting characters.  The IBC allows unit to fall back, but gives up the range of the other 2 options.

 

The point for using it with the sniper option is for the +1 to wound.  S5 will benefit far more from +1 to wound than the las fusil S8.

 

Well the third point is really about what will I need to do when I choose to fall back.  The enemy unit was within 12 inches of me, but lets assume 7 inches away.  They are almost assured to make that charge if I don't fall back, and guaranteed to fail the charge if I do fall back..  So I fall back 6 inches and now that enemy unit is within 13 inches of me on their next turn.  If they are assault marines then I only bought myself one turn.  On the other hand, if I fall back 6, then on my turn move 6 + D6, that unit that tried to charge me is now 20-25 inches away from me, and is not likely going to waste 2 turns running toward me.

 

But falling back really depends on were I deploy the unit.  If they are at ground level then falling back is an option.  If they are on top of a building then falling back brings me closer to the charging unit.  

 

 

First off, with targets more than 24 inches away, you will always make use of the +1 to hit and +1 wound ability for the squad.  If you take either the sniper or the las fusil on the sarg you will always be weighing that rule against taking the extra shot.

Once you do the math, there is no reason to weighting that.

 

Second, it is a D2 shot that can target characters.  So if you have the rest of the squad armed with las fusils you can chose between giving them the rule above or you can shoot a nearby wounded character to take them off the table.  Which adds a nice tactical flexibility since your las fusils can't target characters.

Bolt sniper rifle goes up to 4D and wounds typical characters better than the runaway gun. If you really need to finish off a character, this is simply more reliable since the sarge is the only one who can't be buffed by Guided Aim.

 

Third agreed. Though advancing means you hit on 4+ and wound T4 characters on 4+, which is not exactly reliable.

 

Fourth, yes...but in all those discussions I still wonder why anyone plans on having their snipers in charge range. Or, in case of the IH forum, actively using them to block and kite stuff. Which you should totally do, with dudes that can fire over half the board.

 

You are more than likely right about the math.  But i figured that depending upon which weapon profile you were using and what the target unit is would change which is better.  I am assuming that Vs a unit low toughness and 1 wound models, the executioner and hyper frag round would benefit more from the extra shooter.  Whereas the Mortis round and the las fusil would be targeting higher toughness models with multiple wounds and would benefit more from the increased chance to hit and wound.  And that really comes down to who you are facing.

 

Sure the sniper is a great option, I think they did a great job with all 3 guns, and there are clear situations where each one has value.  But your perception of the value of each option will be colored by your local meta.

 

It isn't that I'm planning on having my snipers in charge range.  it is that I understand that my opponent might be trying to win this game, and in order to do that will have to take out my units.  This is one of the units that they will be trying to take out, and assault is one way they could try to take them out.

[MajorNese]

You are more than likely right about the math.  But i figured that depending upon which weapon profile you were using and what the target unit is would change which is better.  I am assuming that Vs a unit low toughness and 1 wound models, the executioner and hyper frag round would benefit more from the extra shooter.

 

Did the math for hyperfrag. Unless you have at least a captain's reroll and you face only T5 or lower, always take Guided Aim.

 

 

If you mean the ignore-LoS-ammo with Executioner (they switched ammo names since the Vanguard booklet) - it already has +2 to hit, so Guided Aim makes no sense. Against T5 or lower it's better unguided, against T>5 it's mathematically exactly the same, so you might as well use unguided.

[ValourousHeart]

Thanks MajorNess,

 

So are you saying that mathwise the IBC is always worth taking, because you are always better off not shooting with the sarg, except when he gives the unit the option to fallback after overwatch?