If the Lion returns, what will his rules and points be?

[emperorpants]

I'm just curious what everyone thinks his rules and points should be.  Especially in direct comparison to Guilliman.  Will he be a better beatstick with an aura that isn't as good as Gman's? 

 

This would have been easier to do before the new codex nerfed Gman's aura and buffed his melee, as to me it seems the best choice would be to make the Lion a better beatstick and Gman the better force multiplier.  

 

Now though, with Gman's aura being nerfed and his melee buffed, how would you do it?  

[Charlo]

Throw some bones into the ground, read the tea leaves, visit a medium and buy a lottery ticket....

 

Because all of them have as much chance as being right as anyones guess :P

 

But for reals it's hard to tell... It could go any way really?

 

My gut feeling says he'll be more fighty than Gman, buffs only to Dark Angels (and maybe FALLEN?!?!) and be focused around killing characters or affecting things in the meta game and pre-game, as opposed to aura bubbles.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I'm calling it: he'll have the Fallen keyword as well as the Dark Angels keyword, and bringing him will allow you to ally in Fallen units with your Dark Angels.

 

Just a Blood Angels/Word Bearers/AdMech player who plays against a lot of Dark Angels and owns a Fallen Sorcerer giving his take on a cool rule he could have which would be neat and fluffy.

[Berzul]

A melee focused, anti-character primarch, that boosts the army in the pre-game, sounds like a nice variation from Guilliman

[Neuralshock]

Have him shut down enemy auras for 2 (maybe one) turns

[HandsWithLegs]

It would be really cool if he had like 3 different army wide bonuses to represent the 3 main wings that you could choose from before the game. Something like Deathwing focused-get +3" to a charge on deep strike. Greenwing focused - reroll failed hits of 1 and wounds of 1 for shooting if you stood still. Ravenwing focused, advance and shot without penalty.

[Berzul]

We get doctrines

You can choose which doctrine to start in

You can go backwards or forwards in the doctrine flow. Assault to tactical, tactical to devastator, for example

[twopounder]

This will all end up on bols as a verified rumor...:D

[Phoebus]

I don’t know what rules the Lion will have, but recent lore seems to point to Luther’s own return to prominence. Given that, and the potential role Marbas would play as well, how likely is it that the Lion would have any traits related to the Fallen (or vice versa)?

[Hantheman]

Can you imagine the salt if he has the fallen keyword

[G8Keeper]

This will all end up on bols as a verified rumor...

 

Let's make it good then , 15 mins of fame and all that.

 

He comes with a personal retinue of watchers in the dark allowing a 5+ saves against anything (ala disgustingly resilient) bubble within 6", they can move separately but must be deployed  within 6" of the Lion.

 

He's met up with Cypher and had the Lion Sword mysteriously reforged.  Similar but slightly weaker than the Emperor's Sword but Lion himself has re-roll hits and wounds with an extra auto hit attack on 5's.  

 

He gives +3 CP to the army and has an ability where once per game he can use any DA stratagem for free that cannot be blocked by any other stratagem (haha I'm looking at you Agents of Vect).

 

Can select Hexagramaton rules where the army itself takes on a specific role, similar to doctrines but unique abilities.

 

He doesn't get the Fallen keyword but has a rage attack vs anything that has it. +d3 attacks or something.

[Grimdark_Garage]

As i am under the imrpession we will see the Lion essentially replace Azreal and possibly Belial, i belive he will give tactical buffs.

Similarly, i think we will see a named Ravenwing Vanguard Master to buff up the Phobos units. Rather than see any of the established charcters cross the Rubison.

 

Game buffs

- Re-roll all hit rolls within 6"

- 4++ invulnerable for INFANTRY UNITS within 6" (Buffed Lion Helm)

- Big 'ol beatstick!

 

Army Buffs

- Ravenwing and Deathwing units can select their own doctrines

- EG: Keep the greenwing in Devestator Doctrine, Have Ravenwing in the Tactical Doctrine and have the Deathwing in the Assault Doctrine

- If you dont take the Lion, Doctrines act as normal.

- Before the first turn, up to 3 units can be re-positioned

- Before the game begins, nominate an enamy infantry or biker UNIT. All friendly DA can re-roll charges, melee hits and melee wounds aginst that unit

 

ALTERNATE TAKE:

- Deepstrike ability that he can pass on to another INFANTRY unit.

- Deepstriking agressor retinue anyone?

[bevulf]

His special rule will be:

Roll D6:

1) On a roll of 1 nothing happens.
2) On a roll of 2-5 pick an enemy unit. That unit questions Lion’s loyalty and argues with the nearby friendly unit about it. Both units can’t move or attack until next battle.
3) On a roll of 6 he goes back to sleep.

[Grimdark_Garage]

His special rule will be:

Roll D6:

1) On a roll of 1 nothing happens.

2) On a roll of 2-5 pick an enemy unit. That unit questions Lion’s loyalty and argues with the nearby friendly unit about it. Both units can’t move or attack until next battle.

3) On a roll of 6 he goes back to sleep.

 

Terrific!

[emperorpants]

Ha, nice ideas!  I'm really wondering though how they will balance him out and not invalidate Gman.  I mean from a game balance perspective.  They are not going to have him come out and just be flat out better than Gman in every way.  So how do you think they will balance him in relation to Gman?  

[Grimdark_Garage]

Ha, nice ideas!  I'm really wondering though how they will balance him out and not invalidate Gman.  I mean from a game balance perspective.  They are not going to have him come out and just be flat out better than Gman in every way.  So how do you think they will balance him in relation to Gman?  

 

Im not sure balancing against Guilliman is an issue. They are, for all intents and purposes, for two seperate armies.

 

The real issue they must overcome is seperating the two in-game. It would be very easy to simply copy and paste the Lion from Guillimans datasheet.

[ValourousHeart]

While I like the idea of DA getting the Combat Doctrines, because the Devastator Doctrine would be amazing for my speeders.  I'm hoping for something that distinguishes the Lion and DA a bit more from Gman and the UM.

 

I was toying around with the idea that we could switch to whichever doctrine we wanted at the start of the turn and not be required to go in order.  But that sounds straight up better than what the SM get, so isn't really balanced.

 

Then I thought that maybe we can take a cue from the RW Signal the Attack strat from Vigilus Defiant.  Instead of getting Combat Doctrines we would get Tactical Genius or whatever you want to call it.

 

Tactical genius - You have identified the key unit(s) to the opponent's strategy and have discovered their vulnerability.

Requirement - Enemy unit has to have been wounded this turn.

Effect - Any DA unit that targets that same unit gets the benefit of +1 to hit and -1 AP.

 

I'm not sure if that should be the Lion's rule, or just a unique doctrine for the DA in general.  I'm leaning toward the Doctrine side, because the Lion having an ability that affects the whole table seems a contrary to how GW likes to write Character Rules.

 

PRO - It establishes a synergistic relationship between all 3 wings, without having to give each wing a unique doctrine.  It is also opens up the option for Librarians to take a key role in the leadership of the chapter by potentially identifying the target(s) in the psychic phase, and allowing the rest of the DA to then soften up or eliminate the target(s) in the shooting and assault phases.  This also addresses the move and shoot heavy weapons, and advance and shoot assault weapons that a lot of players have expressed concern about for the RW.

 

CON - This would mean we would lose the Signal the Attack Strat, but somehow I don't think players will mind.

[Berzul]

How about, if the Lion is in your army, and is the Warlord, all Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Biker units in the same detachment as the Lion count as troop choices for the purposes of fulfilling the detachments requirements.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

How about, if the Lion is in your army, and is the Warlord, all Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Biker units in the same detachment as the Lion count as troop choices for the purposes of fulfilling the detachments requirements.

...Except he'll probably be a Lord of War. Which means the only detachments he can be in... can't have troops.

[Berzul]

 

How about, if the Lion is in your army, and is the Warlord, all Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Biker units in the same detachment as the Lion count as troop choices for the purposes of fulfilling the detachments requirements.

...Except he'll probably be a Lord of War. Which means the only detachments he can be in... can't have troops.

 

 

Any detachment in an army that has the Lion as the Warlord, and is mono-faction as a Dark Angels and/or Successors, then.

 

(my bad)

[Neuralshock]

In all seriousness, If the Lion could stop an aura and debuff enemies I think that would be very interesting. As a matter of fact I'd really like the DA to throw out debuffs and disrupts as a play style.