SyNidus Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 I'm thinking of which to go with - Vanguard Veterans - 7 man - JP, 4x THammer/SS & 3x PFist/SS - 224 or Chaplain - JP, Benediction of Fury - 90 Invictor Warsuit - Autocannon - 136 And here is my list:2000 Raven GuardBattalion: Shrike - 130 Captain - JP, Master-Crafted TH/SS - Swift & Deadly, Master of Ambush - 143 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Intercessors - 10 man - Bolt Rifles - 170 Spearhead: Phobos Capt - Korvidae Bolts - 99 Phobos Lt - Ex Tenebris 81 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Dev Centurions - 5 man - Gravcannons, Hr. Bolters - 350 Vanguard Detachment: Phobos Librarian - Env. Darkness, Shadowstep - 101 Invictor Warsuit - Autocannon - 136 Invictor Warsuit - Autocannon - 136 <-----Vanguard Veteran squad would go here. Total: 1773 So here's the choice that i'm trying to figure out.If i go Chaplain & the 3rd invictor warsuit, the Chaplain & Slam Cap would be together using Master of Ambush. I'd also have the flexibility of using catechism of fire for the Grav Centurions.On the other hand, a squad of Vanguard vets are really strong anti-tank and a great hammer component in my army. Also, I could give my Intercessor Sgt a Power Sword.Which would you guys pick? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 Disclaimer: I haven't used either of those units yet. I'd probably go for Invictor and jump chaplain. Create more redundancy in the Concealed Position firebase with a 3rd Invictor, so they stick around longer and create more pressure/board control. Also it's already on the board turn 1, which means it can't get blocked by DS deterrents (Infiltrators, chaff units,...), but can be targeted if going second. Why exactly do you go for all autocannons, do you use it as backfield firebase? If it's intended for frontline use, a flamer might get some mileage and deter CC. Jump chaplain is nowhere near as strong as TH vanguard, but untargetable - if you were going second or messed up charge roll after DS, those vanguard would just be very very expensive 7W of power armour dudes. 3++ helps against the good stuff, but any chaff fire like bolters will go through at the usual rate. Positioning might migitate that by breaking LoS, but that very much depends on terrain and what your opponent brings that ignores LoS. Personally, I've used DS so extensively, I'd not really fear these guys - plug any gaps in my deployment zone so they can't DS, and have cheap units at the front to stop that hammer with their face, before it reaches anything expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 Disclaimer: I haven't used either of those units yet. I'd probably go for Invictor and jump chaplain. Create more redundancy in the Concealed Position firebase with a 3rd Invictor, so they stick around longer and create more pressure/board control. Also it's already on the board turn 1, which means it can't get blocked by DS deterrents (Infiltrators, chaff units,...), but can be targeted if going second. Why exactly do you go for all autocannons, do you use it as backfield firebase? If it's intended for frontline use, a flamer might get some mileage and deter CC. Jump chaplain is nowhere near as strong as TH vanguard, but untargetable - if you were going second or messed up charge roll after DS, those vanguard would just be very very expensive 7W of power armour dudes. 3++ helps against the good stuff, but any chaff fire like bolters will go through at the usual rate. Positioning might migitate that by breaking LoS, but that very much depends on terrain and what your opponent brings that ignores LoS. Personally, I've used DS so extensively, I'd not really fear these guys - plug any gaps in my deployment zone so they can't DS, and have cheap units at the front to stop that hammer with their face, before it reaches anything expensive. For the Invictors, I took the autocannons because in case I go second, I can have them in the forward, mid-field and still be able to threaten targets. As for the Vanguard Vets, I won't be deepstriking. They'll be redeployed with the Master of Ambush Captain so they can either be ready to advance & charge turn 1, or be ready to counter-charge or threaten an enemy in T2 from the mid-field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcha0s92 Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 I would go with a mixed vanguard veteran squad of some thunder hammer and some chainsword and give storm shield to the veterans armed with chainsword, that way when you take a casualty is just a chainsword marine and your hammers stay safe inside the unit, it would be cheaper too Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 I agree with the mix of TH/CS in the Vanguards for sure. Something like 4TH/3CS or 5/2. That being said, your list only has a moderate amount of screen killing power (The Intercessors with Rapid Fire being the best candidate) due to no aggressors (and Autocannons on the Invictors to a lesser extent). I could see you running into issues against Orks/Plaguebearer spam/etc, but if your meta doesn't have alot of that you'll probably be fine. If you DO run into a lot of that, and you don't want to add more anti-chaff firepower, the 3rd Invictor will likely be more valuable simply due to target saturation. All that being said I don't think either is a wrong answer, and if I were you I'd play both and stick with what's most comfortable to your play-style. I will say that I think having one unit of melee jump infantry gives access to a bigger part of our toolkit, so having the option does give more tactical flexible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted September 26, 2019 Author Share Posted September 26, 2019 So i've had a think on what you guys have both said and i think i've come to a solution: 2000 Raven GuardBattalion: Shrike - 130 Captain - JP, Master-Crafted TH/SS - Swift & Deadly, Master of Ambush - 143 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Intercessors - 5 man - Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher - 86 Spearhead: Phobos Capt - Korvidae Bolts - 99 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Dev Centurions - 5 man - Gravcannons, Hr. Bolters - 350 Vanguard Detachment: Phobos Librarian - Env. Darkness, Shadowstep - 101 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Aggressors - 6 man - boltstorm - 222 Vanguard Veterans - 6 man - 4 TH/SS, 2 CS/SS - 181 Total: 2000 Starting CP: 10 - 2 = 8cps Managed to find points for both a vanguard squad and an aggressor squad. The slam captain with Master of Ambush and Swift & Deadly means that at the start of the game, depending on the situation I can choose to either bring the vanguard or the aggressors forward, then the other unit would be kept for deepstrike or infiltrate to get a head start. Cut down the intercessor squad and gave incendiums to the invictors to squeeze out more points. As for the Storm Shields, i've given all of them the shields because it's only 2 pts per model. What do you guys think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Sy Thats nasty :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Nasty! I like it :yes: So wheres the pics :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted September 26, 2019 Author Share Posted September 26, 2019 Nasty! I like it So wheres the pics Sy Thats nasty Lol, thanks... Pics won't be ready for a while Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcha0s92 Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 So i've had a think on what you guys have both said and i think i've come to a solution: 2000 Raven Guard Battalion: Shrike - 130 Captain - JP, Master-Crafted TH/SS - Swift & Deadly, Master of Ambush - 143 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Intercessors - 5 man - Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher - 86 Spearhead: Phobos Capt - Korvidae Bolts - 99 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Dev Centurions - 5 man - Gravcannons, Hr. Bolters - 350 Vanguard Detachment: Phobos Librarian - Env. Darkness, Shadowstep - 101 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Aggressors - 6 man - boltstorm - 222 Vanguard Veterans - 6 man - 4 TH/SS, 2 CS/SS - 181 Total: 2000 Starting CP: 10 - 2 = 8cps Managed to find points for both a vanguard squad and an aggressor squad. The slam captain with Master of Ambush and Swift & Deadly means that at the start of the game, depending on the situation I can choose to either bring the vanguard or the aggressors forward, then the other unit would be kept for deepstrike or infiltrate to get a head start. Cut down the intercessor squad and gave incendiums to the invictors to squeeze out more points. As for the Storm Shields, i've given all of them the shields because it's only 2 pts per model. What do you guys think? I like that list but i would find room for a lieutenant with ex tenebris and i would give the centurion the grav cannons just because that stratagem is so good, if you face a knight character on turn 2 while the super doctrine turn on is a sure kill the rest seems fine for me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted September 26, 2019 Author Share Posted September 26, 2019 So i've had a think on what you guys have both said and i think i've come to a solution: 2000 Raven Guard Battalion: Shrike - 130 Captain - JP, Master-Crafted TH/SS - Swift & Deadly, Master of Ambush - 143 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Intercessors - 5 man - Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher - 86 Spearhead: Phobos Capt - Korvidae Bolts - 99 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Dev Centurions - 5 man - Gravcannons, Hr. Bolters - 350 Vanguard Detachment: Phobos Librarian - Env. Darkness, Shadowstep - 101 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Aggressors - 6 man - boltstorm - 222 Vanguard Veterans - 6 man - 4 TH/SS, 2 CS/SS - 181 Total: 2000 Starting CP: 10 - 2 = 8cps Managed to find points for both a vanguard squad and an aggressor squad. The slam captain with Master of Ambush and Swift & Deadly means that at the start of the game, depending on the situation I can choose to either bring the vanguard or the aggressors forward, then the other unit would be kept for deepstrike or infiltrate to get a head start. Cut down the intercessor squad and gave incendiums to the invictors to squeeze out more points. As for the Storm Shields, i've given all of them the shields because it's only 2 pts per model. What do you guys think? I like that list but i would find room for a lieutenant with ex tenebris and i would give the centurion the grav cannons just because that stratagem is so good, if you face a knight character on turn 2 while the super doctrine turn on is a sure kill the rest seems fine for me Yeah man, the Centurions are totting grav for sure. As for the Tenebris Lt, i'm not sure where I can fit it in without taking out something big. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcha0s92 Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 So i've had a think on what you guys have both said and i think i've come to a solution: 2000 Raven Guard Battalion: Shrike - 130 Captain - JP, Master-Crafted TH/SS - Swift & Deadly, Master of Ambush - 143 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Intercessors - 5 man - Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher - 86 Spearhead: Phobos Capt - Korvidae Bolts - 99 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Dev Centurions - 5 man - Gravcannons, Hr. Bolters - 350 Vanguard Detachment: Phobos Librarian - Env. Darkness, Shadowstep - 101 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Aggressors - 6 man - boltstorm - 222 Vanguard Veterans - 6 man - 4 TH/SS, 2 CS/SS - 181 Total: 2000 Starting CP: 10 - 2 = 8cps Managed to find points for both a vanguard squad and an aggressor squad. The slam captain with Master of Ambush and Swift & Deadly means that at the start of the game, depending on the situation I can choose to either bring the vanguard or the aggressors forward, then the other unit would be kept for deepstrike or infiltrate to get a head start. Cut down the intercessor squad and gave incendiums to the invictors to squeeze out more points. As for the Storm Shields, i've given all of them the shields because it's only 2 pts per model. What do you guys think? I like that list but i would find room for a lieutenant with ex tenebris and i would give the centurion the grav cannons just because that stratagem is so good, if you face a knight character on turn 2 while the super doctrine turn on is a sure kill the rest seems fine for me Yeah man, the Centurions are totting grav for sure. As for the Tenebris Lt, i'm not sure where I can fit it in without taking out something big.I would take away an eliminator squad as he still is a sniper with that relic plus he can give you reroll one on wound and for me that is big Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 So i've had a think on what you guys have both said and i think i've come to a solution: 2000 Raven Guard Battalion: Shrike - 130 Captain - JP, Master-Crafted TH/SS - Swift & Deadly, Master of Ambush - 143 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Incursors - 5 man - Haywire Mine - 105 Intercessors - 5 man - Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher - 86 Spearhead: Phobos Capt - Korvidae Bolts - 99 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Eliminators - 3 man - 3 Snipers - 72 Dev Centurions - 5 man - Gravcannons, Hr. Bolters - 350 Vanguard Detachment: Phobos Librarian - Env. Darkness, Shadowstep - 101 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Invictor Warsuit - Incendium - 131 Aggressors - 6 man - boltstorm - 222 Vanguard Veterans - 6 man - 4 TH/SS, 2 CS/SS - 181 Total: 2000 Starting CP: 10 - 2 = 8cps Managed to find points for both a vanguard squad and an aggressor squad. The slam captain with Master of Ambush and Swift & Deadly means that at the start of the game, depending on the situation I can choose to either bring the vanguard or the aggressors forward, then the other unit would be kept for deepstrike or infiltrate to get a head start. Cut down the intercessor squad and gave incendiums to the invictors to squeeze out more points. As for the Storm Shields, i've given all of them the shields because it's only 2 pts per model. What do you guys think? I like this list, a lot. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dode74 Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 I would take away an eliminator squad as he still is a sniper with that relic plus he can give you reroll one on wound and for me that is big With a T4 3+/4++ target the expected damage from an Eliminator squad firing 3 Mortis rounds is 3.08. Expected damage from a Lt with Ex Tenebris is 1.94. I don't think I missed anything in the calcs but feel free to have a play and tell me I'm wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358688-whats-the-right-choice/#findComment-5396793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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