emperorpants Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 Hey guys, so now that our supplement has been out for a bit, what do you think? Is Gman still worth using or is Calgar always better? Also, if you do think he is still worth taking, in what ways is he preferable? I ask because I keep seeing Gman pop up in lists. Is this just because old habits die hard or does he still add enough to justify it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 My list is stronger without him now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 I would say lists are now better off without him - even if you take Calgar and a LT, that's still almost a hundred points cheaper, and Calgar and the LT can fill a requirements for a Battalion, or get you most of the HQ requirements for a brigade. If you go for a CM and a LT, that'll save you two hundredish points, and while won't scare anyone in melee like Calgar or Guilliman, will get the job done for your shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 You gotta have some beat stick. We are not weak ass TAU. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
emperorpants Posted September 26, 2019 Author Share Posted September 26, 2019 Hmm. I wonder why YouTube and layers keep saying he is still worth it in some cases. Guess I'm just curious what those cases would be. Lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 He’s biggest weakness now is versus Knights not being able to reroll all wounds... before with fight twice he can steam roll a Castellan but it’s not a sure thing anymore. Also with the perks to playing mono faction which is totally worth it before his reroll 1s to hit was a super buff for assassins. Calgar is not as good as Guilliman but good enough plus the spare points can go a long way. For example without him you can afford a high end unit or two easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 I think he is worth it, but the lists he's worth it in are specific. A horde of Intercessors (30-40) with supporting units will benefit greatly marching up the table with Guilliman. Armies like mine lose a lot of support units by using Guilliman due to points investment, I'd have to get rid of 3 Scouts squads and the Centurions! I think his use works best on an army that closes the distance in numbers, where he can use his fearsome melee capacity alongside his leadership (re-rolls) benefits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 @emperorpants, Guilliman does not rocket power a list to 'competitive' status anymore. That's what he did while marines in general were lethargic for so much of 8th ed. In other words, to answer your question, the answer isn't just with Guilliman. The Ultra's are far more capable now, while Guilliman has been turned down a bit. There's more of an equilibrium in list building now. Far less of 'You MUST take X to win". So that means Guilliman is good and will pay dividends in lists that are built for him. His previous rules were incredibly potent. A pile of heavy bolters didn't do a lot, but if you included him then you had a chance at piercing Knights to a degree. Guilliman put the math out the window on how a lot of cheap weapons worked. The problem I have with his 'adjustment' in this codex is his sword. Part of what Guilliman a scary beat stick is diminished. While he's still survivable, the absolute brutality of the Emperor's Sword isn't there anymore. It's for this reason (I believe) they made the Hand of Dominion better. Before the changes you could fish for mortal wounds with that sword. Now, not so much. You may find against tougher targets it's best to go with the Hand of Dominion. Before this I always fished for the extra mortal wounds. It could be devastating. It still can, but the potency isn't there like it used to be. List building wise as others have said not only is Calgar / Lt cheaper, but they've changed Guilliman's Warlord Trait and you're still fishing for Battalion HQ's. Guilliman certainly still works, but now he's not the instant superstar he used to be. The game has evolved also. He's prone to all the anti-character stuff and needs proper escorting now more than ever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknife Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Personally I think the nerf was too much. They should have allowed him to reroll wounds of one and two to make it a bit different from the calgar and lt combo. What is more I would have given him that sweep attack that he had in 7th for the sword. Now granted I'm not an ultra competitive player so I could be way off the mark Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
emperorpants Posted September 26, 2019 Author Share Posted September 26, 2019 This may not matter much as it may not happen anytime soon, but I'm wondering how things will be balanced out if another primarch returns, like say the Lion or Russ. Before the nerf you could easily make the new primarch more of a beatstick while Gman is a better force multiplier. Can't really do that now, as Gman's aura is just a chapter master plus Lt. Either Russ or the Lion will be a better beatstick, they are going to have to be based on lore. At the same time they can't have anything less than a chapter master reroll aura. So what advantage does Gman get over them? Will rerolling 1's really balance out having a better beatstick primarch with chapter master rerolls? It just seems to me that they haven't left much room mechanically for the return of another primarch if they want to balance things at all. Of course, they could always just pull a typical GW and shamelessly make the new primarch superior in every way. This is all just theory crafting of course, so sorry. lol Perhaps I'm just a little miffed that Gman got hit so hard with the nerf bat without gaining much to offset it. Yeah, he's better in melee due to more strats applying to him, but really the Emperor's sword should be better than it is. It's big E's sword after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Nobody knows how a new Primarch will function in melee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 This may not matter much as it may not happen anytime soon, but I'm wondering how things will be balanced out if another primarch returns, like say the Lion or Russ. Before the nerf you could easily make the new primarch more of a beatstick while Gman is a better force multiplier. Can't really do that now, as Gman's aura is just a chapter master plus Lt. Either Russ or the Lion will be a better beatstick, they are going to have to be based on lore. At the same time they can't have anything less than a chapter master reroll aura. So what advantage does Gman get over them? Will rerolling 1's really balance out having a better beatstick primarch with chapter master rerolls? It just seems to me that they haven't left much room mechanically for the return of another primarch if they want to balance things at all. Of course, they could always just pull a typical GW and shamelessly make the new primarch superior in every way. This is all just theory crafting of course, so sorry. lol Perhaps I'm just a little miffed that Gman got hit so hard with the nerf bat without gaining much to offset it. Yeah, he's better in melee due to more strats applying to him, but really the Emperor's sword should be better than it is. It's big E's sword after all. For Chaos it started out with Magnus. Then there was Mortarion. They are both similar but quite different. I don't know that a new loyalist Primarch is any different. About the Emperor's sword. It works differently when the Emperor holds it than when Guilliman does. It wouldn't even light up if you or I held it. But make no mistake, Chaos despises it. The Emperor's Sword is an anethema to all things of the Warp. Therefore I personally would have made the Sword able to re-roll all to wounds. This way the 'to wound' rolls don't mess up the math of what the rest of the codex is supposed to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiky Norman Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 I know a lot of this is list dependent, but when speaking in general and in a TAC list, how would you rate these three from best to worst, if Guilliman is not as good as he used to be? Gravis captain + Lt. (177pts -2 CPs)Calgar + Lt (269pts +2 CPs)Guilliman (350 +3 CPs)Would it change the picture if you're going to pick a Librarian and Chaplain anyways, so there are two HQs to fill a battalion regardless of having to put Guilliman in a Super Heavy detachment? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5396919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Gravis captains are hawt garbage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5397033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiky Norman Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Gravis captains are hawt garbage. Well, feel free imagine another captain of choice, and weigh in on how you think the combo would rate against the other two :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5397575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 I run Calgar tbh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5397633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joukernaut Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Gravis captains are hawt garbage. This is wildly over exaggerated tbh. While I agree the regular captain has more options, and Calgar brings an awful lot an ultramarine force, the gravis captain packs 7 wounds and has T5 and 5 attacks. He's a beast in CC (especially if you load him up with CC warlord traits and relics) and is hard to kill by sniperfire. So while he might be a bit slow and a tad expensive he's far from hawt garbage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5397806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 He’s not bad actually... never really liked this model though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5397957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 He needs a 50-70 point reduction or to be moved to the HQ slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358700-guillimanstill-good-or-not-worth-taking/#findComment-5398693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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