Road to FA Cup - Hong Kong ITC - Nov 2019

[Morticon]

So.....it starts again. 


Once again I'm VERY torn about not taking full BA, but from what I hear, the HK scene is VERY competitive, and will see a lot of top "meta" lists in there. 

So, I've decided I'm likely going to be leaning towards BA/DW. 

Were I to be taking BA straight, again, I would be taking this brigade:

 

 

Smash Cap 

Libby Dread

Astorath

 

2x 5 Scouts

3x 5 Snipers

1x 5 Intercessors

 

10x DC- 5Fist,5 flmr

10x VanVet - 4 Fist, 10 shield

Invictor

 

Quad Contemptor

Quad Contemptor

Eliminators

 

3x 2 Attack Bikes. 

 

 

Or...at least I would playtest how it was without the Phobos libby. 

But, 

 

More so looking at a Double Batt variation on my NCO and SA Regionals List which came 2nd in both tournies. 

 

 

BA Smash 

Libby Dread

 

2x 5 Scouts (1x HB)

1x 5 Snipers

 

10x DC - 5fist, 5flmr

Invictor

 

DW Cap - hammer,sb, jp
DW Lib-  Axe, sb, jp

 

10x Intercessors

10x Veterans - 5bikes/5shields, 5SB

8x Veterans - 2Terms, 2Axes, Vanguard, 7SB, 6Shields

 

Quad Las Contemptor

Quad Las Contemptor

 

 

 

Small variations in that its no longer an SM detachment using the dreads and I lose the T-fire and some other things - namely the scout bikes and the Phobos, but I gain the DC and Invictus, meaning this becomes a HEAVY aggressive Alpha-strike list, with some decent Beta options if need be. 

 

Other bonuses include the dreads picking up reroll 1's to wound for selected units, and even +1 to wound vs selected units with the strat.  Wounding knights with 2+ is really solid.  
 

 

 

I have quite a few alternative ideas/spins on this theme, but this is the one that stood out first.

 

Any glaring issues?  

Edited September 26, 2019 by Morticon

[Panzer]

I think one of the questions we have to ask ourselves when going to tournaments for the next while is "how do we deal with Iron Hands".

 

Like what would be your battleplan against a list with a bunch of character Mortis Dreadnoughts surrounding characters that make them hit on 2+, repair them like mad and reduce the damage they take, standing behind some bigger Dreads like Leviathans who benefit from the same stuff who are standing behind a bunch of Stalker Intercessors? All the while those units can move&shoot with heavy weapons without penalty (so they aren't as immobile as it sounds at first), an additional AP (so AP-3 D2 Stalker Intercessors, AP-4 Lascannons, AP-3 Storm cannon array if the Leviathans take those instead of the Grav-flux) and re-rolling 1s even without a Captain nearby?

 

Not sure how a final version of a min-maxed list would look like for IH but I'd definitely expect at least this. Personally I would have no answer to such a list except maybe trying to kill Feirros with mass snipers (luckily they aren't AdMech so they can't repair themselves) and otherwise playing the objectives.

[Morticon]

Sf - my gaming groups are alight with that conversation!! 

And it's DEFINITELY something I've considered and indeed expecting.  Ive made a few IH lists myself and while theyre strong and shooty, they have some glaring weaknesses.  

I'm going to have to play around them - but, one of my lists had 3 contemptors simply because i needed them vs the IH.  

 

 

It gets even worse cause they can overwatch on 4s, The levvy, if hes a chaacter can just waltz out of combat, yeah..its going to be rough.  

My alternative set up, btw, was 8man DC and 8man VanVet instead of the Invictor- which may be better for IH.  But, they are definitely a new Tourney BogeyMan

(I personally feel my BA list would be better vs IH - but the other list would be better against almost anything else!)

[Lynnean]

I think smash will be vital for dealing with IH. The pure list will most definitely be better then the mixed list. Yes, the veterans have 3+ invuln save, but you cant outshoot them.

 

I think melee is our answer, even with the overwatch. That or pod in some shooty stuff if they position incorrectly.

[Panzer]

I honestly think Smash will fall flat against IH. You charge one of the Dreads, the IH player will simply activate the half-damage Stratagem and heal the damage Smash did.

[Lynnean]

I honestly think Smash will fall flat against IH. You charge one of the Dreads, the IH player will simply activate the half-damage Stratagem and heal the damage Smash did.

Won't the multicharge with angel's wings be effective though? Spread the attacks, stratagem on one, kill the other. Besides that, he can block the overwatch for other chargers.

[Panzer]

Sure, if you can multi-charge then you definitely should. I don't think it will always be possible against a good IH player who sees it coming though.

[Morticon]

I honestly think Smash will fall flat against IH. You charge one of the Dreads, the IH player will simply activate the half-damage Stratagem and heal the damage Smash did.

 

 

Smash is not there to damage, but to tie up the horrible overwatch.  Also, you can declare attacks to multiple units, and then, after the strat is dropped, split accordingly.  Im not going to have him bounce off an unkillable unit- im going to have him reduce the firepower. 

 

But, as said, not many players will keep things tight, however, with Iron Stone combo, they wont have a choice.  I'll also use him to get to the Iron father. 

 

If i do wind up going BA though, I have a lot of good sniper shots coming his way. 

[Panzer]

Yeah for soaking overwatch he'll work of course.

The Iron Stone is honestly less important than most think. The vulnerable dreads can be turned into characters so only care for it when in melee and the two or whatever Leviathans can be 6" + base size of the character (which can be another Dreadnought even) apart while still benefitting from the Iron Stone which is obviously more than enough to prevent a multi-charge from a Captain.

As IH player I'd probably just pull my Dreads apart and 'sacrifice' the benefits of the Iron Stone if I see something like a Smash Captain coming my way though. They can repair the few actually exposed Dreads well enough as is.

[Xerxus]

I think you split the attacks when you declare targets, so the stratagem is played after the split with full information. The faq has this entry:

 

"Page 182 – Choose Targets

Change the third sentence of the second paragraph to read:

‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the unit’s close combat attacks, you must declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks; then resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.’"

[Panzer]

I think you split the attacks when you declare targets, so the stratagem is played after the split with full information. The faq has this entry:

 

"Page 182 – Choose Targets

Change the third sentence of the second paragraph to read:

‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the unit’s close combat attacks, you must declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks; then resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.’"

 

Ah yeah you're right. I completely forgot about this FAQ entry. Damn that makes the Stratagem even stronger.

[keeblerartillery]

I honestly like the brigade list. I think you have a ton of snipers to add “bonus” mortal wounds, lots of T1 aggression and high mobility. And solid fire support. Granted, I don’t know enough about the DW to give cogent advice, but seems great! (I’m also a sucker for mono-BA lists)

[Morticon]

I think you split the attacks when you declare targets, so the stratagem is played after the split with full information. The faq has this entry:

 

"Page 182 – Choose Targets

Change the third sentence of the second paragraph to read:

‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the unit’s close combat attacks, you must declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks; then resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.’"

bugger!!!!  Good catch

 

I think you split the attacks when you declare targets, so the stratagem is played after the split with full information. The faq has this entry:

 

"Page 182 – Choose Targets

Change the third sentence of the second paragraph to read:

‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the unit’s close combat attacks, you must declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks; then resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.’"

bugger!!!!  Good catch

 

Although....same time...which means its the same timing as the strat- and you get to dictate order...yeh? 

[Panzer]

 

I think you split the attacks when you declare targets, so the stratagem is played after the split with full information. The faq has this entry:

 

"Page 182 – Choose Targets

Change the third sentence of the second paragraph to read:

‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the unit’s close combat attacks, you must declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks; then resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.’"

bugger!!!!  Good catch

 

I think you split the attacks when you declare targets, so the stratagem is played after the split with full information. The faq has this entry:

 

"Page 182 – Choose Targets

Change the third sentence of the second paragraph to read:

‘In either case, at the same time that you choose targets for the unit’s close combat attacks, you must declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks; then resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.’"

bugger!!!!  Good catch

 

Although....same time...which means its the same timing as the strat- and you get to dictate order...yeh? 

 

 

I don't think it's the same time. The Stratagem requires the Dreadnought to be actually attacked and it gets only attacked when the attacker declared the amount of attacks that go to it. You could maybe try attacking with two units though and then risk the interception before your Smash can swing.

[Morticon]

"...use this strat when a dreadnought....from your army is chosen as the target for an attack." 

Not when it is attacked. 
 

[Maxamato]

Thx for all your efforts that we can participate your tournaments journey.

 

Is the Smashcapt. necessary?

Because we have the Libby Dread and I find him better.

[keeblerartillery]

Thx for all your efforts that we can participate your tournaments journey.

 

Is the Smashcapt. necessary?

Because we have the Libby Dread and I find him better.

I think he absolutely is - and it isn’t really an either/or. He has both!

[Jolemai]

DC placement advice? Lost first turn and mine were shot off the board before I could use them last night...

[keeblerartillery]

DC placement advice? Lost first turn and mine were shot off the board before I could use them last night...

You don’t have to use forlorn fury to put them closer to the baddies - if you don’t have first then, you can always use it to hide them! That’s what I do at least - deploy aggressively with them, Astorath and CPT smash, and if I lose first turn, use forlorn to hide them.

[Jolemai]

I can't justify the expense; sadly, whatever wants to touch them will do :(

[Morticon]

DC placement advice? Lost first turn and mine were shot off the board before I could use them last night...

 

Im finding this is often an issue with some boards /terrain rather than placement.  

 

There are a few options I would look to:

 

1.  If you're going 2nd, (CA18), deepstrike them. 

2.  If you're unsure of 1st/2nd (CA17)  

a. Deploy into cover and behind LOS

   OR

b. If no LOS blocking/cover use Forlorn Fury to move into covered position (even if its a tactical withdrawal from the frontline - Wings of Fire can be great here)

 BUT

c. In the case of solid artillery -it may be best to DS. 

 

All the above being said, after playing in high terrain quality tournaments in China recently, I've come to respect the absolute necessity for good, large, LOS blocking terrain.  Too many tables have loads of terrain that unfortunately has so many gaps and holes, it may as well be an empty table. 

[Morticon]

I was hoping to play my DW/BA combo in South Africa while i was visiting, but wound up only playing my BA.  

Played it vs a new IH list, a crazy good DE list and an Ork list. 

I really, really liked how strong it was, and what it had to offer (really makes me think how well we could do if we just had access to new marine strats !!).

 

My issue is going to be based on the HK meta, which I know nothing about. I think the BA will be better than the DW vs Mech-Marine meta, but worse against anything horde based.  I also have no real answer for that GSC list I came up against (Muscle Beach) where as the DW can really compete against it. 

So...im left a little conflicted.  Will give it more playtesting though! 

[Morticon]

Been play-testing this, FYI: 

 

Smash Cap 

Libby Dread

Astorath

Phobos Libby
 

2x 5 Scouts

3x 5 Snipers

1x 5 Intercessors

 

10x DC- 5Fist,5 flmr

10x VanVet - 5 Fist, 10 shield

Invictor

 

Quad Contemptor

Quad Contemptor

 

2 Attack Bikes - 2mm

2 Attack Bikes - mm/hb

[Jolemai]

DC blown away again, even when deployed in cover :/

[Panzer]

If deploying in cover were enough to let a unit survive focussed shooting then Terminators would be much better off.