"The Other Half"

[superwill]

Hey guys,

 

Looks like a lot of people with RG are sharing a similar idea and I'm certainly on the bandwagon. Shoving centurions (others are using aggressors) up in the opponents face seems like our best trick. There seem to be two possible ways of doing it - shove them up there pre-game or DS them in. Personally, after a bit of thought and trying to get it to work, I've decided I'm not a huge fan of the first idea, unless it's in a mission where you already know who's going first before you start deployment. To deploy them at home and just wait and hope to be going first before you redeploy them just sounds too risky to me, and you're just gambling the game on a coin flip. DSing them on the other hand is a much safer bet - you know you will get to shoot them and even charge with them, and you can drop them in waves if necessary. The biggest downside is that you can only DS half your army.

 

So my question is, for those of you thinking the same way, what are you doing with the other half? My few thoughts so far:

 

1) Bunker down. Play units that will sit in fortified positions and just hold out for reinforcements. Eliminators in cover with their cloaks, TFCs and whirlwinds hidden out of LOS etc. An army which can withstand (or even totally avoid) enemy firepower whilst still being productive itself.

 

2) Simulate a full deep strike army. 50% of your units have to start on the board. But with proper LOS protection, there are some units who can wait until the right time before they redeploy and join your freshly arriving army. For example, turn 1 your HQ uses the "Echo of the Ravenspire" WLT. Turn 2 your libby uses shadowstep. Both units re-appear with the newly arriving forces, and that's 2-300ish points that just "started on the board" but effectively arrived from DS. Allying in units like GK's interceptors, or using Gate of Infinity, or using BA's 'Upon Wings of Fire' strat, can accomplish the same thing. (Are there other examples people can think of?) In this way you could create a psuedo null-deploy army, but it depends on your ability to hide units and your opponents' ability to seek out hiding units. And again, if suitable, you could always send those units in turn 1 to start softening up the enemy to remove bubble wrap and prepare for your RG's arrival. A softer version of this would just be to go for a highly mobile force who can hide T1 and then start advancing T2.

 

3) Go the risky offense. Use the remaining 50% to take things like Invictors, infiltrators, maybe even another centurion squad, and drop them up towards the opponent. Maybe as close as possible, maybe in a hidden location / cover. If you go first you can always scout-move them into a better position. If not, just hope there's something left by the time your reinforcements arrive.

 

What are your thoughts on what to do with "the other half" of your army? Are you planning one of the above options or something else entirely? Or are you not looking at DS, but looking at focusing on infiltrating instead? If so, why? Or are you running RG without either DS or infiltrating, and if so, have you considered playing a different army?

[Dracos]

Board Control

 

1) Stalker Rifles and Eliminators sniping across the board weakening opposition Troops. 

 

2) Bolt Rifles and Infiltrators to grab midfield objectives T1. Rapid Fire opposition targets.

 

3) Apply Aggressors, Inceptors and Reivers as Deployment and Mission requires.

 

Play the Mission first the opposition second.

[Bluflash]

Not to derail the point here, but with noting that even with MoA going 2nd they can still take a nice midfield position where they threaten most of the center, and will can still get cover and the -1 to hit.

 

Deep striking them means committing either extra resources to making the charge somewhat, or getting worse than a coinflip with a 9in charge.

 

While around a third of my army is committed to MoA, the remainder is set up to take board control, limit enemy movement, and provide mid to long range firepower.

 

My scouts and infiltrators are likely to die, but that's buying time and space for my invictors, cents, and quad Las contemptor mortis to rip the enemy's teeth out.

[superwill]

Board Control

 

1) Stalker Rifles and Eliminators sniping across the board weakening opposition Troops. 

 

2) Bolt Rifles and Infiltrators to grab midfield objectives T1. Rapid Fire opposition targets.

 

3) Apply Aggressors, Inceptors and Reivers as Deployment and Mission requires.

 

Play the Mission first the opposition second.

 

Thanks for the reply! Do you play GW missions or ITC? I only ever play ITC I'm afraid, and whilst I agree that "play the mission" is king, the mission is basically always the same - score objectives, kill units, a bit of variety on secondaries. Your first 2 suggestions seem like my "Bunker Down" suggestion - troops hiding in cover hoping to survive and cap objectives, but with maybe less that 50% held back as reinforcements? I'm not sure it'd work in ITC. I think it's fair to say that if you're relying on a bunch of bolter troops, you're not going to be "killing more" than your opponent against any competitive army unless they're just doing the same thing you are, especially if you have points waiting in reserve. And in terms of the arm-wrestle for board control, if your opponent has 2,000 points of genuinely shooty units (or highly mobile assault units) and you have less than that deployed at the start and are trying to claim board control with it, (and you're using units which are fine at shooting and fine at surviving but not particularly great at either) I would imagine that most games will start with you capping more objectives early but less late, and probably never killing more.

 

In GW's Maelstrom and Eternal War missions I can imagine "play the mission" being a more important mantra, where games can be won by completing a few key objectives even if it means getting near-annihilated. That very rarely happens in ITC in my experience, where you have to score points early but not if it means that you've got nothing left to score with late.

 

 

Not to derail the point here, but with noting that even with MoA going 2nd they can still take a nice midfield position where they threaten most of the center, and will can still get cover and the -1 to hit.

 

Deep striking them means committing either extra resources to making the charge somewhat, or getting worse than a coinflip with a 9in charge.

 

While around a third of my army is committed to MoA, the remainder is set up to take board control, limit enemy movement, and provide mid to long range firepower.

 

My scouts and infiltrators are likely to die, but that's buying time and space for my invictors, cents, and quad Las contemptor mortis to rip the enemy's teeth out.

 

Thanks for the reply! So you are thinking 2/3 of your army will deploy normally, with a few units shoved forward? And you're not planning on using DS? Why would your scouts and infiltrators be the ones likely to die, buying time for your invictors, cents and quad mortis? Who would shoot the infantry who have such low damage output? Surely most people would identify the key threats (especially if they're deployed forward) and eliminate them first, before cleaning up the impotent scouts and primaris afterwards?

 

I kind of ran a similar strategy in a game 2 days ago, with of a handful of units thrown forward (6 man centurions, a lt, 2 invictors deployed up-field but still "safe") and then a bunch of scouts and 2 xiphons and a libby in the backfield, with a squad of assault centurions, VV and a couple of characters in reserves. Against a Chaos guy who is currently rocking 3 of those quad-las contemptors, plus 3 decimators (similar units), plus 3 Lord Discordants, plus 60 cultists, plus sorcerers, plus other stuff (and his list is kind of a common 'style' of list in my tournament meta - lots of guns in multiple aura bubbles with bubble wrap). He went first and blew up both xiphons, greatly wounded one of the invictors, and launched a lord discordant 30-40 inches and wiped the centurions. All before I had a turn. Maybe I'm just a little scarred, but the truth is a lot of the armies that I verse could do something similar, and as much as I probably could have won if I'd gone first, that's not a lot of solace in a tournament setting.

 

DSing isn't the perfect answer, but I do feel like it basically gives you the ability to "go first" regardless. If you're building an army that wants to charge, there are things you can do to make that more likely (we can give +2 or +3 to charge if we're willing to go raptors), but even more straight-forward and risk-averse is building an army that is happy to drop and shoot. Personally that's why I think a DS list is going to be more reliable/consistent.

 

Love to keep thrashing it through if people are happy to push back or give other suggestions / disagreements. Iron sharpens iron.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

2) Simulate a full deep strike army. 50% of your units have to start on the board. But with proper LOS protection, there are some units who can wait until the right time before they redeploy and join your freshly arriving army. For example, turn 1 your HQ uses the "Echo of the Ravenspire" WLT. Turn 2 your libby uses shadowstep. Both units re-appear with the newly arriving forces, and that's 2-300ish points that just "started on the board" but effectively arrived from DS. Allying in units like GK's interceptors, or using Gate of Infinity, or using BA's 'Upon Wings of Fire' strat, can accomplish the same thing. (Are there other examples people can think of?) In this way you could create a psuedo null-deploy army, but it depends on your ability to hide units and your opponents' ability to seek out hiding units. And again, if suitable, you could always send those units in turn 1 to start softening up the enemy to remove bubble wrap and prepare for your RG's arrival. A softer version of this would just be to go for a highly mobile force who can hide T1 and then start advancing T2.

 

 

While I am not advocating for this particular style of play, one thing of note is:

 

With the change to drop pods, it is actually possible for a return to form on a hybrid Null-Deploy list (nothing on the board for the opponents first turn). You can do this with any marine army now, but Raven Guard are unique in that we can make a much more rounded (and viable) force. Basically anything you put in pods is no longer considered "part of your army" for determining the 50% cutoff on Tactical Reserves. So you could, for example, have:

 

700 Points in Drop Pods

650 Points in Concealed Positions at the game start (and/or using MoA), preferably Out of LOS or in spots very secure

650 Points in SFTS

 

Could be a fun way to play, effectively taking your opponents first turn ability to do damage away completely.

[Bluflash]

Regarding your last game, deployment in that match up is going to be a critical factor. With disco lords and screen, it would probably be a better idea not to throw units forward unless you can put them out of LOS. Those Lords are going to be able to get anywhere, so properly screening the units you care about is important. Put those centurions in front of the units he is most likely to charge, so they get an overwatch and a fight phase on him before he tags key backline units.

Heavy flyer lists are one of the critical weaknesses in my list. I played against Magnus, Morty, and A Demon prince plus 90 bloodletters. I misplayed my infiltrators and he was able to get the bloodletters in at 9" on T3. I still managed to kill Morty, the demon prince, and half of Magnus. I learned that against lists that cant be move blocked or slowed, it's better to deploy in a more defensive castle state.

It's one of the reasons I like RG so much. We have an extremely flexible deployment component. We can play aggressive against some lists, and castle against others, and if you're running a reasonable amount of Phobos, that castle can start pretty much anywhere on the board.

 

DS can be super helpful here, as for a lot of units DS is just 100% LOS block until turn two. But it also means those units can not contribute in the first turn. Sure they can't die, but that means they can't kill either. Against an enemy that can apply early pressure, you're basically letting your opponent take you out in two small bites rather than one large one.

 

The flaw then, is that we must become masters of deployment. We have to know our enemies lists, units, strats, threat ranges, and target priority as well as we know our own. We're not  as straight forward as Invincible Levi Bubble Iron Hands or Gulliman Bubble UM, but we have a lot more ability to flex against any give opponant.

[Galron]

I personally am not doing the whole infiltrate in the opponents face thing as Seizing is a thing and the opponent getting that effectively makes the list auto-lose. My list has the eliminators, suppressors, scouts, and intercessors in the back field of course but  having bolter inceptors jumping up field. My chaplain, shrike, smash captain, plasma inceptors, and vanguard will either hop up the board as two groups or DS in for a strike on a flank depending on the opponent.

[Dracos]

I really hope they end up FAQ that part of the Drop Pod rule. I’d bet a case of bourbon that isn’t RAI.

 

superwill I respect your game experience but I think given out stratagem and abilities anything less than 10 Secondary Points means you had a really bad dice game. Headhunter, Recon, and Gangbusters all mesh well with Raven Guard. I keep getting tempted by Engineers but not comfortable with a Primaris unit doing nothing. That’s a me limitation though. Scouts might be a good choice.

 

My first suggestion as you called it was to secure your backfield with few units as possible. Less of a bunker and more of an anchor for my deployment zones objective.

 

My second point was about half my army is designed to do work in middle of the table supported by the long range units securing my deployment zone objective.

 

My third suggestion is to use the deep strikers to push my opponent off their own deployment zone objective of reinforce in the midfield depending on current situation.

 

Edit: I understand concern over Seize. I just would never suggest letting it effect your planning other than how we use our pre battle stratagems and Warlord Traits for redeploying.

[Bluflash]

I personally am not doing the whole infiltrate in the opponents face thing as Seizing is a thing and the opponent getting that effectively makes the list auto-lose. 

 

Remember that Master of Ambush / Infiltrate Stategem trigger after the roll off going first, so you don't have to deploy super aggressive as RG.

 

The closest thing other chapters have is the Phobos Warlord trait (Master of Deceit?) and the Ultramarines re-deploy strat which do require you to deploy "concealed position units" aggressively and then use the trait/strat to recall units back to the line if you go second.

[dode74]

This is actually a really good point.  It means you can deploy with, for example, some defensively placed Centurions and an in-your-face Invictor either way, even if going second, and can choose to withdraw the Invictor to somewhere more sensible using MoA if you don't seize the initiative.

[superwill]

Thanks all! Glad to see some quality ideas and discussion happening.

 

Definitely my experience in that initial game wasn’t a great one and was full of mistake (many of those units I’ve never run before). I think I’d just read a few people suggesting that even if you go second you can till shove units forward, but just a little further back and in cover, so I thought I’d go for that. The other thing is that, because you have to deploy without knowing who’s going first yet, my other option was to just keep the centurions in my deployment zone and make them footslog up towards the lascannons and C-Beams to get in range with their own guns.

 

The dice certainly didn’t help - apart from going second being a big factor (and I had the +1) there were a few key moments where the dice were mischievous. I had two big charges to make on turn three, where either one probably would’ve won me the game. The assault centurions, +2 to charge and rerollable, and the TH VV with +2 to charge rerollable, both failed. Four attempts and I couldn’t roll a 7. In the end it was a surprisingly close game. The centurions completely deleting a Lord Discordant in overwatch was the highlight for me. But it did make me feel like planning for MoA is a bit more of a gamble than I personally want to take. Not because I want to invest too much in one game, but because I think many of us can see that kind of situation happening often and I don’t think there are too many clear solutions.

 

Sweet Moses, Vyper. I’m disappointed in myself for not knowing about / fully comprehending that Drop Pod change. I thought the change was that they could come in turn one, it never occurred to me that they ignore the 50%... so basically, if i put a 320 point unit of cents in reserve, I only need to start with 320 points on the board and the rest can be in drop pods?? Geeez... I guess I need to think about what works well in drop pods... Do the FW drop pods have the rule too?

 

I’m thinking maybe Sternguard with combiflamers or heavy flamers, if they’re using the +3” range. Devastators with grav might be great. What about VV without the JP? Not being able to hit flyers would be a problem. Love to know other thoughts ☺️

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Iirc the dread pod does not have the rule currently.

 

You're on the right track in terms of contents. I think the best applications are 2x5-man units in one pod to double up efficiency since the pod cost is no joke.

 

Grav devs - personally I'd only run one unit as they aren't stellar without the strategem. Alternatively if you run two, they should come down staggered, and expect the first group to die after they delete something

 

Tacticals - 5-man, plasma / combi-plasma. You can fit two troops in one pod, and drop four plasma. Not bad but not great.

 

Sternguard - I personally prefer 10 man units, stock, with SIB as their equipment, as the strategem is quite strong.

 

I agree VV without packs are a trap. If you want to go the elite/foot troop option, company veterans are probably the more flexible choice (pod wise)

[superwill]

I think my biggest worry is what to do about flyers and vehicles then. Lots of decent dakka options, between the centurions and pod-people. But if I’m versing flyers at -2 (or more) I don’t know that the gravs will be enough? Or maybe they will. And nothing that can fit in a pod will be able to charge higher. I guess if you did a 200 point JP VV and a 350 point centurion squad, you could get away with only 500 on the board.

 

Do you reckon a melta outfit might work? I guess 4 multimeltas dev squad with cherub, using the “shoot without penalty” and near a CM and lt might be decent?

 

Anyway, not meaning to derail the thread so people can keep discussing whether going heavy on DS is a good strategy and what to do with the rest of the list if you are planning on doing that.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I mean anything with a JP can deep strike, when coupled with a Chaplain that was already on the board (from a Pod or JP from a prior turn) you could charge them out of DS if you wanted. You could also hide them like you mentioned (in your Centurion blob for example)

 

Crimson Hunter Exarchs are T6  12W and a 3+ Save with -1 to hit. They're good but they do still fold if you apply the right tool for the job. Smash Captains kill them in one round of combat with no strategem support. Hell Shrike can rip one out of the sky as well with the attack twice strat. 5 VV with TH/SS blow one up in one round as well and cost the same points. For me I guess it would depend on how much you run into the 3+ Aeldari flyer lists in your local meta. They definitely have the best tools to get on top of your on-table deployed units, but remember you have till the end of the first battle round before you lose via Sudden Death, so your pods will always get to come in.