Carcharodons and the new RG supplement

[Lord Commander Vulkus Dorn]

So what’s anyone’s take using the new book for fielding a Carcharodons force? Since most folks agree they’re the exiled Terran RGs descendants and that they still speculatively share the same gene seed, does this supplement work for them in any regard?

[Sersi]

According to Black Library the Carcharodons gene-seed is a Chimeric; mix of Raven Guard, Night Lords, and possibly World Eaters,.  Forgeworld's old rules state their progenitor is unknown. So, to can make them a successor to whatever you like really.  I don't think Raven Guards rules as they are now are really suited for them. I've been playing mine as White Scars successors. Which is better choice IMO if you want melee units like: Tyberos, Terminators, Vanguard Vets, Assault Marines, Reviers, or even Intercessors.

[Lord Commander Vulkus Dorn]

I’ve never heard of this “chimeric” stuff before, I was always under the impression like most other folks they were of RG blood sans why they’ve been put under the RG banner here

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

So this has always been a bit of a hot topic and recently has gotten really heated, so I'll just lay out the facts that you can find in actual published materials.

 

Their original lore in IA10 lists them as Raven Guard, but unconfirmed, and the geneseed from the single sample they sent for testing contained markers unique to the RG lineage.

 

HH3's pre-Corax RG lore retroactively introduced the origins of multiple Carcharodons-specific aspects and themes, such as the Moritats' and Terrans behavior, the exile fleets, the Nomad-Predation fleet system, the title of Shade Lord, and the note-worthy ship Nicor. This book also features Tyberos's helmet on one of the coat of arms.

 

Red Tithe kicked off a large amount of speculation that they were somehow NL or mixed NL geneseed. I don't really understand why, but it is what it is. The closest thing I can think of is how the daemon possessing the NL Chaos Sorcerer in the novel mentions once or twice lines such as "they are like you, but different", and one of the NL characters mockingly refers to a Carcharodon as "brother". You could take it to mean that the Carcharodons' combat style and fear-inducing presence is similar to the Night Lords, or they are referring to their RG lineage and how Corax/Curze and the RG/NL were like dark mirrors to each other. I also don't remember if it was in this novel or the sequel, but the protagonist's company flagship is equipped with Ursus Claws.

 

Outer Dark introduces some stronger hints that the Carcharodons may not be purely Raven Guard. The Ashen Claws mock them when they demand geneseed in exchange for their assistance, and say they will only accept "pure" geneseed and imply the Carcharodons would try to offer them mongrel or tainted genestock. There is also a passages where the protagonist fights a World Eater and the Ashen Claw chapter master mocks him saying "he could even be your brother". The Carcharodons Chief Librarian also notes that the protagonist's uncharacteristic battle-rage was a sign of his "lineage" or "heritage" (forgot which one of these terms was used). This could be a hint that he either contains some WE geneseed, or it's referring to the chapter's Terran roots, however, it is revealed in one of the short stories that the protagonist was a child from the same colony that the first novel took place in so there is very little chance that he was born on Terra.

 

It's all up to personal interpretation, but I think by far the strongest and most overwhelming evidence is obviously Raven Guard lineage, with heaps of evidence that literally screams it at your face, but then puts in tiny disclaimers, "but not technically confirmed". The next most popular, but I feel most tenuous guess is Night Lords. There's just not much evidence for it so I don't know how it got so popular. Especially the less common claims that they are purely loyal NL with no RG heritage...when they literally have two FW rules publications talking about their RG heritage. The least common but more likely guess is World Eaters.

[Sersi]

It's newer lore. Most of the info hinting at them being of Terran Raven Guard is from Badab War Book Two, 2011, and The Horus Heresy Book Three - Extermination, 2014. Then Horus Heresy Book Six - Retribution came out in 2016 and that the Terran Raven Guard went renegade and and became the Ashen Claws. They're a mix of Raven Guard, Night Lords having fought the Night Lords in  a long campaign where they harvested Night Lord gene-seed.  Then you have the Red Tithe, 2016. Where Carcharadons fight Night Lords and again harvest their gene-seed. One of their captains is strongly hinted at by the Chief Librarian to be of World Eater stock. Which ties back into Horus Heresy Book Six which was all about Black Shields and shattered legions at the end of the Heresy. Finally, you have The Outer Dark, 2018. Where we learn that the Carcharadons receive semi-regular re-supply from the Adeptus Mechanicus of Raven Guard gene-seed; and regularly trade gene-seed, recruits, and slaves with the Ashen Claws.  Again its suggested that the Carcharadons are either splinter group of the Ashen Claws, or a larger group of Raven Guard exiles that they both descended from.  So current lore pretty much any Chapter trait could be justified.  They maybe started out Raven Guard but you can't really say Corax is their progenitor anymore. Then you have the fact that they had there own tactics even before they were exiled , and that there tactics are completely different from Raven Guard.  

[Sersi]

 

 

 

 

It's all up to personal interpretation, but I think by far the strongest and most overwhelming evidence is obviously Raven Guard lineage, with heaps of evidence that literally screams it at your face, but then puts in tiny disclaimers, "but not technically confirmed". The next most popular, but I feel most tenuous guess is Night Lords. There's just not much evidence for it so I don't know how it got so popular. Especially the less common claims that they are purely loyal NL with no RG heritage...when they literally have two FW rules publications talking about their RG heritage. The least common but more likely guess is World Eaters.

 

I say its "confirmed" now that their a mix of Raven Guard and Night Lords as author of the newer novels Robbie MacNiven said in his blog that no they weren't just Raven Guard descendants. 

 

Back to what chapter to be a succesor for, White Scars all the way.  You won't find better tools elsewhere to get into assault with and butcher when you get there.  You can deep strike Tyberos using the "Hero of the chapter" stratagem to take the Imperium sword WL trait for +1 A and +1S, and re-rolling any or all charge dice. Along with a unit ten Assault Terminators with a Sgt using the "Khan's Champion" stratagem for Master-crafted Damage 5 Thunder Hammer. Take a Terminator Librarian with the "Ride the Winds" psychic power for +2 to charge, and the "Plume of the Plains Runner" relic for a 6" aura granting +1 to advance and charge. Then if you need too. You activate the "Fierce Rivaries" stratagem to roll 3D6 to charge discarding the lowest; and you can command re-roll if needed for a 6" charge on 4D6. 

 

For more pain take a Jump Pack Captain as your actual Warlord with "Chogorian Storm" for +D3 attacks on the charge, and "Master of Snares" for a 4+ roll to prevent an enemy unit falling back.  You could then either arm him with an expensive Thunder Hammer, or go cheap with "Teeth of Terra" for +3 attacks.  You can either outflank him or deep strike in with some double chainsword Vanguard and/or Assault Marines. All you jump pack infantry can advance and charge. Then next turn fallback, shoot and charge in again getting the bonus for shock assault again. Just brutal.  Take a Jump Pack Chaplain with either "Benediction of Fury" relic fir +2S/AP-2/ Damage 3; and or a Master-crafted Power Fist. For his litanies you can either take "Mantra of Strength" or "Canticle of Hate" for 6" aura of +2 to charge rolls, as well as +3" to pile in and consolidation moves.  Canticle of Hate is the most useful if you start him on the board; since you can either move your jump pack units up with him or deep strike them into his aura.

For you troops you can take MSU Incursors or Intercessors with auto bolt rifles so they can they can move, advance, shoot and still charge. Then fallback, shoot and charge back in for that shock attack bonus. 

[Lord Commander Vulkus Dorn]

That traitors had harvestable gene seed is new to me, I was always under the impression that once they were touched by chaos, there no longer was anything to salvage. I’m aware that Cawl did use traitor stock for his Primaris project but those were put on ice and have only recently surfaced according to current lore. Man, so much has changed since Rogue Trader. GW need to pull a DC crisis event and fix its crap it sounds like lol.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Most of the rogue trader stuff is non-canon. Like the ultramarines half-eldar librarian

[Claws and Effect]

That traitors had harvestable gene seed is new to me, I was always under the impression that once they were touched by chaos, there no longer was anything to salvage.

The Night Lords never committed to Chaos and most of them do not worship the Chaos Gods.

 

If a Night Lord commits himself to one of the gods he's seen as weak by the others.

 

It is reasonable then that their geneseed would still be relatively usable by and large.

[Lord Commander Vulkus Dorn]

Most of the rogue trader stuff is non-canon. Like the ultramarines half-eldar librarian

 

Hey with all the Aeldari chick and Guilliman memes floating around, you never can be too sure

[Sersi]

 

That traitors had harvestable gene seed is new to me, I was always under the impression that once they were touched by chaos, there no longer was anything to salvage.

The Night Lords never committed to Chaos and most of them do not worship the Chaos Gods.

 

If a Night Lord commits himself to one of the gods he's seen as weak by the others.

 

It is reasonable then that their geneseed would still be relatively usable by and large.

 

 

It's also worth noting that the Night Lords that the Ashen Claws and Carcharodons fight don't live in the Eye of Terror.  They're based in real space in a territory just beyond the bounds of the Imperium, they conquered after fleeing from the Scouring. So, probably much less corrupted that Chaos Space Marines from the Eye or Maelstrom. 

[Gederas]

Most of the rogue trader stuff is non-canon. Like the ultramarines half-eldar librarian

Hey with all the Aeldari chick and Guilliman memes floating around, you never can be too sure

 

That traitors had harvestable gene seed is new to me, I was always under the impression that once they were touched by chaos, there no longer was anything to salvage.

The Night Lords never committed to Chaos and most of them do not worship the Chaos Gods.

 

If a Night Lord commits himself to one of the gods he's seen as weak by the others.

 

It is reasonable then that their geneseed would still be relatively usable by and large.

I didn’t know this either, much I have learned today. Thank you to everyone for your replies, they’re super informative and quite helpful

There's also the fact that the Night Lords were known to have incredibly stable gene-seed (iirc, on par with the Iron Warriors and World Eaters for most reliable in producing recruits). And Claws: Some have, some haven't. The Night Lords are extremely fractured as of this point.

 

But yeah, Carcharodons are not exactly Raven Guard successors. Best rule set for them is honestly White Scars with the custom successor traits (Whirlwind of Rage is a must; secondary can be either Hunger for Battle, to get into melee ASAP, or Tactical Withdrawal, to keep Shock Assault up and working for you. Fearsome Aspect is a fluffy, if not as brutal option.)

[duz_]

Back on topic which is does the RG supplement work well with Carcharodons and their lore.

 

Not what is their lore.

[Nusquam]

Back on topic which is does the RG supplement work well with Carcharodons and their lore.

 

Not what is their lore.

Ambush, infiltration, sabotage, shock tactics. Which the RG supplement has in spades. Terror tactics and shock tactics are often used interchangeably but are not the same. The WS supplement is about speed, but RG is about everything the sharks have done in books from sneaking through tunnels(Infiltrators, SftS), to teleport strikes(SftS), decapitation strikes (Law Low the Tyrants), etc.

 

 

Oh and their librarians use powers straight out of Umbramancy like The Darkness within to obscur their forces. Their powers come from the "deep dark abyss" like the depths of the ocean.

[Lord Commander Vulkus Dorn]

That’s what I would think, sans the reason behind the tread to see what in the RG supplement worked for them. I’m not against running them as something different but I was trying to be as faithful as possible. Seeing that the Templar’s aren’t in the forthcoming IF supplement give me hope that a possible crusader style astartes book is coming and as they definitely fall under this banner, perhaps they might get included but who knows.