Raven Guard Company Structure

[DreamIsCollapsing]

 

 . . . .

 

Being Raven Guard in particular, it feels like there have been a lot of tidbits lately that would indicate we may get more time in the limelight as well in the near future (#CoraxIsComing)

 

Stealing ^this^

 

 

 

Please GW dont ever bring Corax back. It would be like bringing Sanguinus back : Spoiling all the legion lore. I want my RG to stick with the deseperate Edgar Allan poe backstory, not the ninja-shadow-badass bull:cuss 30k as bring. 

 

On this topic im quite happy the first official "codex" didnt mention the 30k worst part of RG (like Legionnaries who can just disappear without psyker abilities..). 

 

Off topic, but what did you understand about the RG company. Here is what i understood, I will only speak about the Primaris organisation, not the old marines one : 

 

- First company is only veteran who served in the 2, 3 and 4 to fully understand . They got the (non exclusive) access to Terminator armor, but also the best Phobos (and i assum gravis) armor ?

- 2nd is specialised in Assassins. Much Reiver and Infiltrator, first company with a formation of only Vanguard SM (ie Infiltrator, Lieutenant/Captain/Librarian in phobos, Incursor, Eliminator, Suppressor)

- 3th specialised in the Ambush way of the RG. No stealth whatsoever but an overwhelming quick force unto the vulnerable point of the ennemy force. With lots of jet-pack troop (so Suppressor and Inceptor, i guess also Reiver with grav-chute)

- 4th in the Stealth path. So absolutly all the Phobos armor. They got lots of Repulsor (and, i would guess Invictus). 

- 5th are the Vigilance path. I guess also lots of Phobos, in particular lots of Infiltrator (for the "i prevent ambush with my omni scan" aspect). They are also know for being the best firepower of the RG with lots of tank and also lots of jump troop. So i guess Executionner repulsor, Supressor, Agressor (or are the Agressor the new Terminator and almost only find in the first ?), and Inceptor ? 

- 6th thing is to liberated occuped world by infiltrating them and raised human troop among the local population. So again, lots of phobos, Eliminator to kill the Tyrant, and the most fluff way to include Astra militarum guard (to represent the local loyalist force). 

- 7th are kinda of the White Scars of the Raven guard, the fastes RG force. As we have no Primaris Land Speeder, aircraft or Bike there isnt any new units to represent them at the moment. 

- 8th are close combat specialist, they does look like a lots like the RG Death compagny (not so caricatural, but lots of Jet pack close combat marines and a weakness to the genetic flaw of the chapter). 

- 9th are the heavy support company (wasnt it the 5th ?) but they seems to have very little primaris. So i guess the standard predator, dread, devastor goes the 9th and the Executionner, Redemptor dread and Inceptor are mostly find in the 5th. Too bad they Singing them was fun. 

- 10th are scout and Vanguard marines. 

 

So in short : 

- All company got Intercessor, Infiltrator (both standard troops) 2 lieutenant (+/- in phobos armor), 1 captain (+/- in phobos or gravis armor), 1 Primaris ancient, Dreadnought, repulsor and impulsor (transport tank).

- All company can and will have reinforcement from Primaris Apothicaries, primaris chaplain, primaris librarian (eventually in phobos armor) and some tank. 

 

So, question, i plan to make a RG force based on the 7th company. 

- All those aforementionned units will have the purple trim right ?

- Apothicaries/Chaplain/Librarian and tank : does they stay in neutral heraldry or does they paint their armor in the colors of the Captain/lieutenant responsible for the actual mission ? (in my case, purple).

- If i want to include Hellblaster : should they came from the 1/2/3 or 5 company ? Or does all the company got Hellblaster. If no, will they still got their original company colors or paint their trim in purple.

Same question for Inceptor, Agressor, Suppressor, Reiver etc...

[duz_]

As mentioned this post was considerably of topic from the original but an interesting one to discuss so have separated it into its own thread

[Dracos]

I have been disappointed they haven’t published a “Codex” complaint command structure for a Primaris Chapter yet. We get glimpses here and there but nothing that makes sense when looking for a bigger picture. Just the assignment of certain units to slot choices alone are perplexing. Looking at you a Reivers.

 

It would also be nice to understand the role of Scouts (if they have one) in a Primaris only army or if that role is just relegated to the obnoxiously expensive (for a Troop choice) Infiltrator/

 

I can live with for the moment that Aggressors are suppose to be my Terminators and Reivers my Assault Marienes .... albeit storm shields would be appreciated.

 

Also aircraft. While my head canon doesn’t see an issue with Primaris fielding Tanks, Dreadnoughts of any variety, even Centurion armor to some degree is would still be nice to see some air support for Primaris. And please don’t anyone say that Repulsors fly lol

[WAR]

 

Off topic, but what did you understand about the RG company. Here is what i understood, I will only speak about the Primaris organisation, not the old marines one : 

 

- First company is only veteran who served in the 2, 3 and 4 to fully understand . They got the (non exclusive) access to Terminator armor, but also the best Phobos (and i assum gravis) armor ?

- 2nd is specialised in Assassins. Much Reiver and Infiltrator, first company with a formation of only Vanguard SM (ie Infiltrator, Lieutenant/Captain/Librarian in phobos, Incursor, Eliminator, Suppressor)

- 3th specialised in the Ambush way of the RG. No stealth whatsoever but an overwhelming quick force unto the vulnerable point of the ennemy force. With lots of jet-pack troop (so Suppressor and Inceptor, i guess also Reiver with grav-chute)

- 4th in the Stealth path. So absolutly all the Phobos armor. They got lots of Repulsor (and, i would guess Invictus). 

- 5th are the Vigilance path. I guess also lots of Phobos, in particular lots of Infiltrator (for the "i prevent ambush with my omni scan" aspect). They are also know for being the best firepower of the RG with lots of tank and also lots of jump troop. So i guess Executionner repulsor, Supressor, Agressor (or are the Agressor the new Terminator and almost only find in the first ?), and Inceptor ? 

- 6th thing is to liberated occuped world by infiltrating them and raised human troop among the local population. So again, lots of phobos, Eliminator to kill the Tyrant, and the most fluff way to include Astra militarum guard (to represent the local loyalist force). 

- 7th are kinda of the White Scars of the Raven guard, the fastes RG force. As we have no Primaris Land Speeder, aircraft or Bike there isnt any new units to represent them at the moment. 

- 8th are close combat specialist, they does look like a lots like the RG Death compagny (not so caricatural, but lots of Jet pack close combat marines and a weakness to the genetic flaw of the chapter). 

- 9th are the heavy support company (wasnt it the 5th ?) but they seems to have very little primaris. So i guess the standard predator, dread, devastor goes the 9th and the Executionner, Redemptor dread and Inceptor are mostly find in the 5th. Too bad they Singing them was fun. 

- 10th are scout and Vanguard marines. 

 

So in short : 

- All company got Intercessor, Infiltrator (both standard troops) 2 lieutenant (+/- in phobos armor), 1 captain (+/- in phobos or gravis armor), 1 Primaris ancient, Dreadnought, repulsor and impulsor (transport tank).

- All company can and will have reinforcement from Primaris Apothicaries, primaris chaplain, primaris librarian (eventually in phobos armor) and some tank. 

 

So, question, i plan to make a RG force based on the 7th company. 

- All those aforementionned units will have the purple trim right ?

- Apothicaries/Chaplain/Librarian and tank : does they stay in neutral heraldry or does they paint their armor in the colors of the Captain/lieutenant responsible for the actual mission ? (in my case, purple).

- If i want to include Hellblaster : should they came from the 1/2/3 or 5 company ? Or does all the company got Hellblaster. If no, will they still got their original company colors or paint their trim in purple.

Same question for Inceptor, Agressor, Suppressor, Reiver etc...

 

 

I feel that the Apothecaries and Chaplains would still be assigned to the Companies (in your case 7th co) so have purple trim.

 

Librarians are assigned on a mission/ campaign to mission/ campaign basis so would retain their markings (As an example my Raptors Librarian is not going to wear blue armor but his shoulder pad trim will be blue). 

 

I think since the 7th is usually a reserve company in other chapters the Hell blasters should have the 9th co markings. Inceptors and Suppressors 7th co (they are fast mobile suits), Aggressors 1st  cojust cause of they don't really fit anywhere else unless you do 9th again, and Reivers 2nd co

[Gederas]

 . . . .

 

Being Raven Guard in particular, it feels like there have been a lot of tidbits lately that would indicate we may get more time in the limelight as well in the near future (#CoraxIsComing)

Stealing ^this^

Please GW dont ever bring Corax back. It would be like bringing Sanguinus back : Spoiling all the legion lore. I want my RG to stick with the deseperate Edgar Allan poe backstory, not the ninja-shadow-badass bull:cuss 30k as bring. 

 

On this topic im quite happy the first official "codex" didnt mention the 30k worst part of RG (like Legionnaries who can just disappear without psyker abilities..).

Counter-point: The 30k stuff is cooler than the hilariously edgy and emo backstory the 40k Raven Guard use. And I say this as a diehard Edgar Allan Poe fan :lol:

 

That being said, this is an interesting breakdown on the Raven Guard's company structure.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Didn't mention the wraithslip or whatever it's called in fluff sure, but it mangled the sable brand into a legion-tier epidemic that requires a specific chapter structure to combat.

[Nusquam]

I still don't follow what the point of the different routes are in lore between who is primaris and who isn't. Perhaps I missed something in the book?

 

A regular marine seems to accrue more experience in all fields over his career. Which would lead me to believe that they would have a skillset/tactical advantage. Though Primaris go straight into a a specific role and presumably make up for the lack of experience with more guts (literally). They both progress from there and the end result is regular veterans with an arsenal of gear and unique units (sternguard, vanguard, terminators) and... also veterans but in the same gear.

 

What the advantage to this split path? Seems primaris are out-of-the-box battle line ready, a big advantage when they were first introduced. But at that  point why bother with the normal marine creation, and put primaris on the normal marine path. So eventually you have primaris with a wider arsenal, IE the entire chapter armory.

 

I can see a case for existing vehicles like predators and other rhino chassis having physical crew limitations. But why not put a special issue bolters in the hands of primaris intercessors? Or give lighting claws to suppressors, etc.

 

Has anyone uncovered anything that gives a reason to it? The biggest factor is models and it's warping what seems logical, but has GW inserted some sort of reasoning to it?

[Dracos]

Fun video on the topic

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkFMJFRIGro

[seriade]

Primaris have basically filled the manpower issue the raven guard have always held.  While the company structure exists on paper I have always felt it was more you have 2-4 main groups/fleets and the rest of the chapter is sort of filled into one of those groupings until it is believed to be adequate for the given job at hand.   When one of those groups job is done or becomes combat ineffective they return home rearm and resupply recycle manpower and go back out again.  If you look at the main ravenguard structure from 7th so right before primaris and Bobby G came back you would see the main bulk of any force to be scouts with marines in short supply and tending to be more elite troops with very little in the way of main line tactical marines.

 

 

@nusquam the reson i think your seeing primaris come out the way they are is if you look at the setup for legionary squads it sort of draws parallels to their organization they were meant to fight in groupings that you seen in the days of the horus heresy not necessarily what you see today.  (Actual reason I think they realized making a ton of units that are Swiss army knives and can be setup to do 20 things creates massive balance issues and they are a correction in that regard)

[Nusquam]

I think my question can be boiled down to why do some recruits become primaris and others dont?

 

Supply of tech has since been corrected in the books. RG seems to have the most adaptive primaris force mentioned; what is the advantage to normal marine path?

 

Could it be as simple as they have all the normal equipment and it's much more efficient to use it all up first?

[seriade]

I belive it would be how far down the path the recruit is before the primaris option becomes available and if his conversion process is beyond the point where the primaris point would start.  I would assume that all new recruits become primaris now.

[WAR]

I think Seraide has the most logical idea of how or why. It could also be which recruits are the fittest to undergo the primaris implant 

[duz_]

Are we getting into the weeds here?

I'm not sure digging into the details of Primaris recruiting is aligned with the overall discussion of chapter company composition

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Are we getting into the weeds here?

 

Kind of?

 

While I get that "Raven Guard isn't making anymore Firstborn marines, and every new recruit from this point forward is a Primaris" definitely can lead us down a slippery slope, it does however define a means, which gives us an end:

 

Company composition is vague and undefined because, simply put, the range isn't complete, imo. I would expect we will get analogs to Primaris for nearly the entire true-born line, and until we do, we are going to be stuck in a sort of ill-defined structure (lore wise) so that they don't pigeon-hole themselves and need to retcon something.

 

When looking at Primaris structure in the new books, there are a lot of weird things to me. Take for example Incursors: They are considered Close-Support units in the codex. Yet Infiltrators are considered Battle Line. A bit weird, no? On the tabletop they have similar firepower and utility. They wear the same armor mark, the only major difference being a few minor changes in equipment.

 

Things like the Hellfury "leak" show us that they have a rather large roadmap planned out, but they don't want to hit us with it all once, but rather in a trickle-feed.

 

Personally, I have just accepted the whole thing is going to stay disjointed for another couple years. At least until we get the following:

 

Primaris Jump Pack HQs

Primaris CQC Jump Troops

Primaris Bike/Attack Bike/Land Speeder

Hellfuries

Primaris Terminator Analog

Primaris Flyer (s)

Primaris MBT with no Transport Capacity

Primaris Transport - Cap of 10 - either Skimmer or Flyer

Primaris Lord of War

Primaris multi-part Veteran-style kit (Sternguard/Vanguard/Company Vets/Command Squad)

[Nusquam]

I still dont understand the current structure beyond the normal marine path and some tidbits about the primaris path. Seems it was left vague on purpose to future proof upcoming releases. Like what happens if a chapter makes only primaris from now on and they "run out" of normal marine and have leftover predators and such. Though in the supplement RG aren't making Primaris only. So I would bet on the current structure of personnel is dictated by the logistics of supply.

 

So I suppose the short answer is a simple one; current first born path still exists because their gear does and you can fit any primaris unit into any battle line company because they have supporting units that fit into each role type. Bonus points for phobos it seems in any company as well. So I'd say go for it in regards to the OP question. If the unit role matches what the company has for types it works, primaris or not.

[seriade]

The primaris structure is based on the legionary structure 1 unit 1 purpose.  The other issue is they did not want to invalidate everything that we have bought to make "new" marines.   For example hellfuries are a squad solely equipped with meltaguns.  The problem is we play a game that requires balance and has a substancial number of factions and non marines have been ignored for a long time so we will see a mass of new marines.  We will see something in the psychic awakaning but who knows what we will get. 

[duz_]

Let's not get into a rules discussion either

[seriade]

If that was directed at me i wasn't trying to get into rules just trying to state its a game with models and we cant get all the models we want all the time or all at once as other people want their models as well.

[Ania Redfang]

The only problem I have with the structures now is numbers... I traditionally make my armies based on one company and include everything I want within that, but I can't do that with all the new units because there's not enough space in a traditional 100 marine battle company.

 

Battleline: Intercessors, Infiltraitors, Tactical Marines: This is fine because there's 60, right?

 

Close Support: Reivers, Aggressors, Incursors, Assault Marines etc: There's only meant to be 20 in a battle company so there's no way this works anymore... 

 

Fire Support: Same problem with Hellblasters, Supressors, Devs etc... 

 

I think they need to clarify where everyone goes, up the numbers in a company or ditch this idea entirely and introduce some sort of narrative driven thing for Strike Forces and why they all have the same shoulder pad trim despite coming from different companies... 

 

I want my army to make logical sense and include the options within my battle company and at the moment I don't think I can... 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

The only problem I have with the structures now is numbers... I traditionally make my armies based on one company and include everything I want within that, but I can't do that with all the new units because there's not enough space in a traditional 100 marine battle company.

 

Battleline: Intercessors, Infiltraitors, Tactical Marines: This is fine because there's 60, right?

 

Close Support: Reivers, Aggressors, Incursors, Assault Marines etc: There's only meant to be 20 in a battle company so there's no way this works anymore... 

 

Fire Support: Same problem with Hellblasters, Supressors, Devs etc... 

 

I think they need to clarify where everyone goes, up the numbers in a company or ditch this idea entirely and introduce some sort of narrative driven thing for Strike Forces and why they all have the same shoulder pad trim despite coming from different companies... 

 

I want my army to make logical sense and include the options within my battle company and at the moment I don't think I can... 

 

Yep that's my problem too. 

 

Furthemore I am into the 7th, so a reserve company with only Intercessor/Infiltrator (and a Chaplain, dedicated Apothicaries, Dreadnought, 1 ancient, 2 lieuntant, 1 captain and some reinforcement of Librarian, warsuit and tank). 

So, if i understand correctly, i cant put an Eliminator from the 7th. It will be either a long range support marine from the 1/2/3/4/5 or 9 with the phobos armor OR part of a Vanguard force from the 10th. 

 

Question (both in regard from esthetic and fluff) is : Will this Infiltrator will have the 7th purple trim or the red of the 3th (for exemple). 

There is exemple in some book of member from reserve company changing their marking when reinforcing a battle company, I'm looking for exemple going the opposite way.

[Nusquam]

The supplement explicitly calls out that RG change their armor markings on purpose to confuse enemies(pg 20, box). So really you could have a strike force with a unified scheme that doesnt fit within one company for example.

[WAR]

The only problem I have with the structures now is numbers... I traditionally make my armies based on one company and include everything I want within that, but I can't do that with all the new units because there's not enough space in a traditional 100 marine battle company.

 

Battleline: Intercessors, Infiltraitors, Tactical Marines: This is fine because there's 60, right?

 

Close Support: Reivers, Aggressors, Incursors, Assault Marines etc: There's only meant to be 20 in a battle company so there's no way this works anymore... 

 

Fire Support: Same problem with Hellblasters, Supressors, Devs etc... 

 

I think they need to clarify where everyone goes, up the numbers in a company or ditch this idea entirely and introduce some sort of narrative driven thing for Strike Forces and why they all have the same shoulder pad trim despite coming from different companies... 

 

I want my army to make logical sense and include the options within my battle company and at the moment I don't think I can... 

 

 

 

The only problem I have with the structures now is numbers... I traditionally make my armies based on one company and include everything I want within that, but I can't do that with all the new units because there's not enough space in a traditional 100 marine battle company.

 

Battleline: Intercessors, Infiltraitors, Tactical Marines: This is fine because there's 60, right?

 

Close Support: Reivers, Aggressors, Incursors, Assault Marines etc: There's only meant to be 20 in a battle company so there's no way this works anymore... 

 

Fire Support: Same problem with Hellblasters, Supressors, Devs etc... 

 

I think they need to clarify where everyone goes, up the numbers in a company or ditch this idea entirely and introduce some sort of narrative driven thing for Strike Forces and why they all have the same shoulder pad trim despite coming from different companies... 

 

I want my army to make logical sense and include the options within my battle company and at the moment I don't think I can... 

 

Yep that's my problem too. 

 

Furthemore I am into the 7th, so a reserve company with only Intercessor/Infiltrator (and a Chaplain, dedicated Apothicaries, Dreadnought, 1 ancient, 2 lieuntant, 1 captain and some reinforcement of Librarian, warsuit and tank). 

So, if i understand correctly, i cant put an Eliminator from the 7th. It will be either a long range support marine from the 1/2/3/4/5 or 9 with the phobos armor OR part of a Vanguard force from the 10th. 

 

Question (both in regard from esthetic and fluff) is : Will this Infiltrator will have the 7th purple trim or the red of the 3th (for exemple). 

There is exemple in some book of member from reserve company changing their marking when reinforcing a battle company, I'm looking for exemple going the opposite way.

 

 

 

I thought in the previous 8th ed dex  they said the companies increased size to 20 squads marines. it could be my old mind messing with me.

[seriade]

In the previous codex the ultra example company had around 120 marines in it.(Also Bobby G stated it was ment to be a refrence not an exacting stadard so due to primaris influx some chapters bloated).  But for the most part a company is as big as it needs to be to accomplish the goal needed.   I would think of it more like a black templar crusade now for size and structure its as big as the mission commands.  For average bloat i would assume that about 50 primaris would be added to a given chapter if your going with there are already 100 guys in it.  

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Agree with regards to company size exceeding 100 with the influx of Primaris

 

For me personally, I view the trueborn as specialists, that short of a few minor changes (VV with or without Jump Packs/Drop Pods), they largely stay within their assigned role.

In my head canon, I see Primaris as more jack-of-all trades. So for example (I am going to pick numbers randomly)

 

4th Company

 

60 Battle Line

20 Close Support

20 Fire Support

 

Further breakdown:

 

60 Battle Line:

 

40 Tactical Marines, with equipment for Specials/Heavies to have one of each per 10

20 Primaris - each Primaris has a suit of Tacticus and Phobos armor - so they can equip to suit based on the mission.

 

20 Close Support:

 

10 Assault Marines - To be equipped with packs, bikes, or in pods

10 Primaris - Gravis/Phobos suits for all, can adapt to the role

 

20 Fire Support:

 

10 Devastators

10 Primaris - Tacticus/Phobos suits for flex between Hellblaster/Hellfury/Eliminators 

 

Also, if Company's were to "spill over" in quantity, I would expect it to be in the non-Battle-line categories. 

 

At least thats how I imagine it.

[seriade]

vv and sternguard are 1st company "technically" even though they may never actually join it.  Any form of specialized troop be it centurion or bikes etc would be joined in from a reserve company while they may wear x company colors they would not be a part of that given company.   As for actual breakdown i think the 60/20/20 proably should just get tossed as its probably now more 40/40/40 given how much ravenguard "historically" lean on the 10th company.

 

looking at this from a solely collecting little plastc men point of view for the purpose of playing a game.  Writing it all down gets you organized and you can probably come up with something that personally makes sence to you.  I may try and jot it down squad for squad when i get home later but it sort of makes sence at least in my head.

 

Edit from a personal stand point from the purpose of collecting little plastic men(single company no outside troops):

 

Front line

 

Tacticals

     2x5

Intersessors

     1x10 normal

     2x5 auto

     1x5 stalker

Infiltrators

     1x10 (shadowspear squad)2x5 may be better

Incursors

     2x5

 

Assault

 

Rivers

     10 still not sure on these guys

Aggressors

     1x6

Centurion Assault

     1x6

Inceptor

     1x6 possibility of adding a 2nd group but still not positive on performance for points

Suppressors

     2x3 or 3x3 possibly still unsure and these are fast attack in the book so listed here but are listed as heavy support in squad markings

 

Bikes I dont feel are worth taking should be represented by scouts

Land Speeders/Attack bikes these I feel need to be reevaluated

 

Support

 

Dev squad

     2x5 grav and a lc ml squad

Cent dev

     1x6

Eliminators

     3x3 

Hellblasters

    1x10 mostly because i have them

 

**1x5 Company Vets sb and ss squad no idea where they would actually belong in this list, if adding a 2nd squad all combi plasma