The Siege of Terra: The First Wall

[StrangerOrders]

I do not tend to hold with automatic dismission of criticism and I am usually quite forgiving with 40k. However a professional writer has to accept that you have a price to pay for your own hype and the Siege has been hyping us up to the point of exhaustion and indulging in extravagant pricing even by their standards, to say nothing of decades of buildup.

 

So I am cutting them less slack than I normally would as a result. 

 

There is also the fact that different people read things different ways, I am sure someone else might have dredged very different details from the story.

 

Claiming that other people's views are invalid does not tend to do much to lend credence to one however. 

 

My use of the term 'manchild' is in reference to Sigismund, Forix and Perturabo. I stand by those and am pretty happy to cite the exact moments that give me this impression in a serious conversation. Of those only Forix was really a surprise because I liked him as the only 'relatively sane' man in the room in his previous outings. I tend to think ill of Sigismund but that is a contentious issue which I believe breaks down into how reliable a narrator you take Astartes for after accounting their rather alien perspective in the better works. I see him as self-centered (due to how he tends to phrase and view situations entirely around himself, with very little inclination to do what will deny him personal glory), petty and rather impious. But that is a PoV on him that I used to segway into my views on his action's in this particular book. French is also his primary writer and one of the bigger proponents of making Astartes quite flawed.

 

I would also not be quick to talk down about other sources, as all have their strengths to balance against their flaws.

 

Reddit propegates many memes and an unfortunate amount of people who draw from the sourceless wiki, but it also draws attention to older and lesser known works. On the whole it also increases literacy in a setting that can be daunting to impenetrable depending on the day.

 

1d4chan is both very up-to-date and amusing, but is mostly run by folks pretty deep into the setting who indulge far too much in memes. I will also defend their tactical knowledge to the extreme as a friendly place to learn about using different armies without getting vast swathes of army lists being dismissed as unusable.

Edited March 16, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[mc warhammer]

Just finished reading through it and it was my favorite book in the Siege so far.

 

Which would be a good thing if it was not my favorite due to being the funniest thing I have read from BL in the longest time.

 

Where to even start, alright lets start with Perturabo.

He seems to have gone full man-child, I literally started laughing when I saw the book literally make him stomp around a hologram of the palace and unironically made a godzilla reference. We also saw his STRATEGIC GENIUS, otherwise known as having a guy do it for him and show up to gloat at Dorn as if that proved something. Not even going to go into the fact that the space station fell principally due to warp nonsense (BEHOLD THE TECHNOPHAGE) and the Imperial Fists not remembering that small fighter craft are a thing.

 

Dorn seems like a temperamental baffoon, but that is par for the course at this point. The Siege books really convinced me so far that any of the Loyalists would have made a more effective use of seven years than the guy whose biggest feat seems to have been antagonizing the populace to the point where they side with gut-magicians rather than help him.

 

Speaking of gut-magicians, we had Layak (the most inexplicably powerful sorcerer on record) and Abaddon still desperately trying to convince us that BL isnt trying to desperately back-peddle on the fact that the latter is a one-dimensional ball of topknots and anger. To their credit, they are succeeding. I know think he is a ball of topknots, anger AND edgyness. I am becoming increasingly convinced no one other than the top tier authors should be allowed anywhere near him. I hate everything about Layak, mostly because he was actually enjoyable and shockingly nuanced in Slaves to Darkness and he seems to have sold his depth in exchange for power.

 

Forix is now Terran, for some reason, because heavens forbid that someone in high command of a Legion other than Abaddon be non-Terran. I could have sworn that he literally dwelled on his childhood on Olympia in Pert's novel, but I am not checking. He is one of the funniest characters in the book, being somehow sniveling, treacherous and an irritating manchild at once.

 

We can't discuss manchildren without discussing Siggy of course. He is still way more interested in his ego than his alleged faith (anything resembling giving a damn about Dorn is just told to us a best). The most effected he is in the entire book is when he loses to Khârn and most of that page count goes into sulking over his loss and Dorn not letting him be a special boy, rather than any seeming awareness as to the actual war to protect the man he insists he worships. Sort of an encapsulation of self-serving faith rather than anything resembling selfless piety.

 

Speaking of Piety, I am convinced at this point that Malcador is a secret chaos-supporter as written. Either that or the book just accidentally made Amon be 100% right and Malc lacks basic pattern recognition. 'Faith can also defeat daemons!' is a weak as hell argument when it was directly used to bring down the Phalanx, has a PROVEN history of killing expeditionary fleets, Monarchia and in that book alone cost him a number of his increasingly few Custodes (recall that they have a function acting force of 500) and his priceless tech. And that is ignoring the number of people it is killing. Folks talk about plot armor but Keeler seems to have some sort of stupidity field generating more plot armor than most Primarchs.

 

Speaking of idiocy and plot armor. Khârn now operates on a different gravity than the rest of us. Jump several dozen meters, being thrown several dozen meters, being super strongm etc. He seems to be trapped in a bouncy castle more than a battlefield at this point. Still the smartest Khorne supporter given that Kruger was waving his arms around literally and everything out of his mouth was funny as hell.

 

And I literally have no idea why we are still spending the bulk of our HH climax on random mortals. Not even interesting or high ranked mortals but a YA protagonist that somehow got hurled into the future. I am intrigued by her politics though, given that it takes balls to associate anyone in 40k with freedom.

 

Overall, I am really hoping Saturnine rights this ship as it plows through several iceburgs.

despite not having read the book yet, i'm almost certain this is an entirely unfair response

 

though i'm 100% certain it made me laugh anyway

[StrangerOrders]

 

Just finished reading through it and it was my favorite book in the Siege so far.

 

Which would be a good thing if it was not my favorite due to being the funniest thing I have read from BL in the longest time.

 

Where to even start, alright lets start with Perturabo.

He seems to have gone full man-child, I literally started laughing when I saw the book literally make him stomp around a hologram of the palace and unironically made a godzilla reference. We also saw his STRATEGIC GENIUS, otherwise known as having a guy do it for him and show up to gloat at Dorn as if that proved something. Not even going to go into the fact that the space station fell principally due to warp nonsense (BEHOLD THE TECHNOPHAGE) and the Imperial Fists not remembering that small fighter craft are a thing.

 

Dorn seems like a temperamental baffoon, but that is par for the course at this point. The Siege books really convinced me so far that any of the Loyalists would have made a more effective use of seven years than the guy whose biggest feat seems to have been antagonizing the populace to the point where they side with gut-magicians rather than help him.

 

Speaking of gut-magicians, we had Layak (the most inexplicably powerful sorcerer on record) and Abaddon still desperately trying to convince us that BL isnt trying to desperately back-peddle on the fact that the latter is a one-dimensional ball of topknots and anger. To their credit, they are succeeding. I know think he is a ball of topknots, anger AND edgyness. I am becoming increasingly convinced no one other than the top tier authors should be allowed anywhere near him. I hate everything about Layak, mostly because he was actually enjoyable and shockingly nuanced in Slaves to Darkness and he seems to have sold his depth in exchange for power.

 

Forix is now Terran, for some reason, because heavens forbid that someone in high command of a Legion other than Abaddon be non-Terran. I could have sworn that he literally dwelled on his childhood on Olympia in Pert's novel, but I am not checking. He is one of the funniest characters in the book, being somehow sniveling, treacherous and an irritating manchild at once.

 

We can't discuss manchildren without discussing Siggy of course. He is still way more interested in his ego than his alleged faith (anything resembling giving a damn about Dorn is just told to us a best). The most effected he is in the entire book is when he loses to Khârn and most of that page count goes into sulking over his loss and Dorn not letting him be a special boy, rather than any seeming awareness as to the actual war to protect the man he insists he worships. Sort of an encapsulation of self-serving faith rather than anything resembling selfless piety.

 

Speaking of Piety, I am convinced at this point that Malcador is a secret chaos-supporter as written. Either that or the book just accidentally made Amon be 100% right and Malc lacks basic pattern recognition. 'Faith can also defeat daemons!' is a weak as hell argument when it was directly used to bring down the Phalanx, has a PROVEN history of killing expeditionary fleets, Monarchia and in that book alone cost him a number of his increasingly few Custodes (recall that they have a function acting force of 500) and his priceless tech. And that is ignoring the number of people it is killing. Folks talk about plot armor but Keeler seems to have some sort of stupidity field generating more plot armor than most Primarchs.

 

Speaking of idiocy and plot armor. Khârn now operates on a different gravity than the rest of us. Jump several dozen meters, being thrown several dozen meters, being super strongm etc. He seems to be trapped in a bouncy castle more than a battlefield at this point. Still the smartest Khorne supporter given that Kruger was waving his arms around literally and everything out of his mouth was funny as hell.

 

And I literally have no idea why we are still spending the bulk of our HH climax on random mortals. Not even interesting or high ranked mortals but a YA protagonist that somehow got hurled into the future. I am intrigued by her politics though, given that it takes balls to associate anyone in 40k with freedom.

 

Overall, I am really hoping Saturnine rights this ship as it plows through several iceburgs.

despite not having read the book yet, i'm almost certain this is an entirely unfair response

 

though i'm 100% certain it made me laugh anyway

 

Entirely possible, I am sure you will read it (lets be real, we all will) and I would be happy to debate the actual points. I stand by what I said but I will also admit that I had alot of fun with it (I also had alot of fun with the book actually, it wasnt sarcasm when I said I outright enjoyed it the most).

 

Tbh? As a book I was disappointed because I tend to not read Gav Thorpe's Astartes work (it is a longstanding project for me but for some reason I have a hard time with his HH entries) but I adore his Eldar work, especially the fabulous PL books. It really felt jarring for me to see such a gap in nuance and style as I usually think of him as a very good writer. 

 

That being said, I still earnestly recommend the book. Even if it is just as a guilty pleasure, I think the Siege books should be read as a continuum (unlike the fragmented style of the HH) and I think most of us are too far gone to deny participation in this moment for the hobby.

 

And also, ya know, there is not much sense giving opinions on a book if one does not read it. Heck, I quite recently was flabbergasted by the Valdor book being awful from the spoilers but then found it to be delightful when I got ahold of it myself). Similarly, I've seen the Lion book catch alot of flak I am happy debate because it runs counter to what I got from the book.

 

My opinion is hardly the ultimate seal of damnation on any work and I would still want folks to read it so that I can have a substantive debate on the topic. I do not particularly enjoy nebulous discussions compared to detailed blow-by-blow debates on books. The latter of which has become one of my favorite facets of 40k.

Edited March 16, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Marshal Rohr]

As I’m working my way through it the portrayals of the Fists have been disappointing mostly because my view of them isn’t supported by anything anyone has ever done with them. As for Khârn, if you go back to Gav’s work in the studio he’s kept the same vision for what a chaos champion, and in this case the ultimate mortal champion, is capable of with the lore he wrote in 5th Edition Chaos and earlier flavor pieces. The Heresy setting as a whole is suffering between the Summer Blockbuster style of the Novels and the Hardcore History style of the Black Books. Different products with different goals, obviously, but it’s getting harder to reconcile the two. Chaos is being used as a narrative device and plot element here, and that runs up against what we know just from the universe.

 

I also find a lot of the scene choices disappointing. Not because of how they are written, just because of what they are doing. Rann deciding what to do about the port or sky bridge would never actually happen like that, they’d have made the decision to prioritize what way before the day actually arrives. Dorn would’ve already had a QRF ready and on the flightline to go when called. Forrix raid would’ve had clear objectives, and sure those could be changed to add drama to the story as they went along, but he stresses several times the objective is not to have an objective. That works for the Kroeger plot, but not a raid behind enemy lines.

 

Clarification: I’m enjoying it, it’s just a pop war novel and not a pop history novel like I would prefer.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[KhorneFlakes]

finished his at the weekend. fairly disappointed in it. felt like a filler and could/ should have been edited down further. the sub-plot about the people heading towards the siege should have been stripped down a lot.

 

Khârn portrayal was a bit off and sigismund came across like a whiny teenager

 

only character that, for me, came across well was Abaddon. 

 

big meeting between two primarchs...lot of glowering and then just a 'meh, whatever, i'm offski'

 

i will have forgotten that this book existed in a week or so.

[DarkChaplain]

For me, the Zenobi plot is kind of the (civil) Heresy in a nutshell.

 

We see this group around Zenobi with all the hardships involved. A life in subservience, believing that it's a good life. A fruit once a month at officer rank? What bliss! Service, no matter how back-breaking, mind-numbing, is all that counts. Culture nearly exclusively defined by workshifts and roles at the line. They don't even know songs that don't fit their work rhythm, don't know what it's like to have a real timepiece, their internal clocks are based around particular ticks.

The previous political regimes during the Unification Era were brutally toppled by the Emperor, and identification with those old families is highly discouraged if not stomped out. Personal pride is dangerous, being a cog in the Imperial machine is everything.

 

Yet some people dare to see hope in it to the point of escaping into religion - something that feels especially sad in the context of their lives being miserable. To me, those characters felt tragic. They probably needed to find some sort of divine justification to their own miseries, a reason to keep going. And they were disposed of for their beliefs - at that point, it didn't even matter if the Addaba Free Corps were loyal to the Emperor or turncoats. They would have been disposed of for their religion either way, as soon as they started to present it openly / spread it among the rest.

 

Yet others, like Zenobi, are burning with personal pride, constantly forced to cover it up and pretend to be drones. While Zenobi can draw strength from it, a fire that earns her respect among the officer cadre, it also poses a constant risk, as personal feelings can easily disrupt the order of things. Her position is presented as perilous on numerous occasions. Again, this sort of thing is an incarnation of what the Imperium is at the point of the Heresy, and will remain long after. Individual spirit is something most citizens cannot afford. And you can see the resentment bubbling at times - the switcheroo of it being Horus or the Emperor who is the target of that resentment is fairly irrelevant; fact of the matter is, these people are an oppressed mass within the greater war, and even before. They grew up in servitude, and this is a moment where they can stand up and matter for once, in a real, noticeable, personal way. Zenobi doesn't even believe in herself becoming a hero of the war, as an individual, but as part of a collective. We see her civil disobedience, her tongue-biting, and her belief in the cause all throughout.

 

And through the entire ordeal of the Addaba Free Corps, a hundred day journey, weeks of idleness waiting for the right moment, and their declaration for the Warmaster, you see a genuine shift within the regiment. From saying their goodbyes to a harsh home, an almost joyful departure, shared companionship through songs, through the first experiences of the war itself, the rising tensions within the regiment, the infighting, the religious spread, the rising bitterness and disgust at the loyalty officers, the forced idleness.... The mental pressure is palpable. It gradually sinks in that they won't be heroes, for neither side. That their lives are valued as even less than originally thought.

 

And all of it happens within the framework that the Emperor and Rogal Dorn have provided - by holding up their cover, even between different people of Addaba, they're following the mandates of the loyalists, exposing us to just how terrible life on Terra, and the Imperium at large, had become. Numerous times throughout their journey I kept thinking to myself that it is amazing that any of them would still support the Emperor's cause under these circumstances. That they haven't rebelled against these lives, these overseers, these laws yet. There was quite a balancing act here, showing both the necessity of all of this, while also giving justifiable cause for turning. It blurred the lines between loyalists and traitors very well, without ever resorting to ~the warp~ or ~Primarch awe~.

Looking back over this plotline makes it apparent that the integrity officers had been rooting out overly loyal elements from the start, and were testing the command staff and vital elements in terms of resentment towards the Emperor, and a capacity to keep their mouths shut. But at no point does it become obvious that they're actively serving the Warmaster until it is too late.

 

I see a lot of complaints about the plotline not having an explosive payoff, but really, it didn't need one. The following chapter of Dorn receiving reports of traitor elements makes it very clear that this is just one such element throughout the palace and surrounding fortifications and camps. Addaba as a whole doesn't matter It never held more importance to the Imperium/Terra than its upheld productivity. They're not heroes, and they're fairly irrelevant traitors within the whole. They were never going to receive big attention after their declaration for Horus. That was their high point, and the entire journey there, the characterisation, the presentation of their struggles under the existing regime, that was the entire point of the plotline. It never was about the destination, be it as part of Dorn's relief forces or the Warmaster's wrench in Dorn's plans.

 

Separating the plotline into its own novella would've hurt it, in my opinion, as it would have given the Addaba Free Corps and Zenobi much more prominence than either the individual or the collective would have deserved. In a sense, you could argue that the disdain readers feel towards the plotline, not taking them seriously or considering them relevant, is kind of in line with their in-universe presence. They're a footnote in the war effort, but one of many similar ones. They represent many different cultures, hives, civilizations all across Terra, all tied up in this war. Some will flip towards the Warmaster's side, others will retain their loyalty, but with this storyline, we can see arguments for both. The Addaba Free Corps itself is not special, though. Zenobi isn't special. Egwu isn't special either. Their entire existence is a symptom of the Emperor's regime, coupled with the Warmaster's rebellion. And in my eyes, it's an important thing to keep in mind for the Siege - these are the circumstances of the bulk of Dorn's defenders, or the Warmaster's forces. This is why the galactic civil war can rage on as it has, with neither side pulling off easy wins. It's the fuel that the war effort runs on, despite the more prominent battles being dominated by the Legiones Astartes.

 

At the end of the day, these people are fodder, not worth much to either Horus or Dorn. They're being expended in the millions on Terra. They're being used and abused, treated like livestock, disposed of if they stop pulling their weight, be it out of weakness or disloyalty to a cause they likely don't truly believe in anymore. We've seen instances of this kind of thing early in the series, especially during the Compliance wars of the Great Crusade, and the following systematic restructuring and oppression of the planets in question. This, though, is exponentially worse on the whole. It's a symptom of the late stage of the war, of the min-maxing the Imperium will become so known for over the following ten millennia. This disdain for the individual is, to me, a highly important aspect of the Heresy, and I am glad it got its place in the Siege. Even if it lacks the action or Famous Astartes vs Famous Astartes fisticuffs many people seem to be craving at this point, I got far more out of this storyline than watching Sigismund fight dudes A through Z and Dorn smacking Perturabo in the face.

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

I don't think the zenobi arc should have been a novella, but instead been part of book 2 as it would have tied in a lot better thematically, to the point where it wouldn't have felt like filler where the entire saga is summarised by "there were insurgents in the camps but we'll still be good to go in like 18 hours" . If it were in LatD, you could have had the conscript character (I totally forget his name) and zenobi have separate journeys to the palace, with the bait and switch being the fearful conscript being a stalwart loyalist while zenobi's culture is being suborned to serve horus. The climax could have been the betrayal by the Free Corp (and others) that necessitated the white scars sortie.

 

I have this feeling that Thorpe was given far too much free reign with far too little editorial oversight; he says himself that it was his 40th warhammer book. It feels like he wanted to write his own version of book 2, and they just made him rearrange some parts to fit in chronologically. We know the space port isn't the "first wall" for either primarch, since the solar war itself was a series of proverbial barricades and hold-out actions; neither primarch even really paid the port any attention and just pawned it off on their subordinates. Then there's the obvious bungling of characters, which strays into contradictions like Forrix' planet of birth (hint, it wasn't terra). I thought this series was supposed to have tight oversight?

[Lucerne]

The question I have is: How much of these stories can be salvaged when forge world gets to the same plot points?

[Morovir]

Actually, the first book to address Forrix's planet of origin (the Magnus Primarchs novel) does have it listed as Terra.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Actually, the first book to address Forrix's planet of origin (the Magnus Primarchs novel) does have it listed as Terra.

Ah, I just looked it up, and it was an easy mistake having not read Magnus. The passage in Perturabo has him call Olympia home and refer to the populace as kin; in Magnus he says Olympia feels like his home even though he wasn't born there.

[Indefragable]

Kind of off-topic, but looking at the cover to ​The First Wall as I am about to purchase the audiobook made me think of this:

 

The axe the Imperial Fist is holding looks ridiculous. I know it's the axe from Forgeworld's MkIV Power Weapons set, so it's not the illustrator's fault (in fact, kudos for keeping the IP coherent for once). But it just seems so odd to me. I'm no medieval weapons expert, but isn't the whole point of an axe that the strike edge is more focused in its chopping motion than say a sword? Isn't that why in all those internet quarrels about "axe vs sword" so many people are advocates of axes?

 

The one he is holding as a blade (haft? beard? whatever the technical term is) that is almost as long as the shaft (pole?), which by the criteria above, defeats its very nature as an axe, right? 

 

Just wondering. 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Indefragable

[DarkChaplain]

I don't think the zenobi arc should have been a novella, but instead been part of book 2 as it would have tied in a lot better thematically, to the point where it wouldn't have felt like filler where the entire saga is summarised by "there were insurgents in the camps but we'll still be good to go in like 18 hours" . If it were in LatD, you could have had the conscript character (I totally forget his name) and zenobi have separate journeys to the palace, with the bait and switch being the fearful conscript being a stalwart loyalist while zenobi's culture is being suborned to serve horus. The climax could have been the betrayal by the Free Corp (and others) that necessitated the white scars sortie.

 

I have this feeling that Thorpe was given far too much free reign with far too little editorial oversight; he says himself that it was his 40th warhammer book. It feels like he wanted to write his own version of book 2, and they just made him rearrange some parts to fit in chronologically. We know the space port isn't the "first wall" for either primarch, since the solar war itself was a series of proverbial barricades and hold-out actions; neither primarch even really paid the port any attention and just pawned it off on their subordinates. Then there's the obvious bungling of characters, which strays into contradictions like Forrix' planet of birth (hint, it wasn't terra). I thought this series was supposed to have tight oversight?

 

See, I disagree on that proposed version being better. The Addaba Free Corps stand well on their own, with no clear indication or teasing of them going rogue, something you'd have for sure when you put them up against another regiment / militia. Katsuhiro also already has a traitor subplot throughout the entire thing, through the (ex)Alpha Legion operatives. His situation of being drafted in is also very different, as is the focus of his arc.

 

For those conscripts, the waiting game is a much more immediate problem, whereas for Addaba's volunteers, it's a late development that didn't have as much tension as the journey. Both plotlines, even ignoring the schedule of the wall breach and the taking of the space port, are thematically out of sync and represent different angles of the Siege. To combine them effectively, you'd have to abandon what makes either unique, diminish their effectiveness, and probably raise even more fanrage over regular army dudes getting too much screentime, with the chief complaint likely being that one of them could've been cut (probably the "good" one, because them staying loyal wouldn't "add anything").

 

Katsuhiro is a very real part of the defense effort from the moment it hits his wall section. His experiences include the grime, the diseases, the horrors of the Warmaster's forces, the hope and brotherhood, and the eventual betrayal of it. For Zenobi, the experience is more about the system, the oppression, the hunger for relevance, support of a nebulous cause in the name of a home whose glory days were crushed generations ago. She never experienced the nobility of Sanguinius, the unexpected companionship with people she never before knew but suddenly has to entrust her back to. For her, it is about both a more and less personal need for validation.

 

On top of that, your idea includes the White Scars - which I would consider just as superfluous to the plotline as any other Astartes intervention would have been. The Addaba Free Corps are not a threat that warrants Legion involvement. They're a delay, a jammed magazine in Dorn's weapon, not a true enemy. They're in the middle of an Imperial staging ground, amidst other regiments that are temporarily thrown into chaos, but well enough equipped to handle it. The cost to them, and Dorn, is time, something that wouldn't really be helped by pulling Legion elements from somewhere else, to put down a minor insurgency where loyalist troops are already on the job. Sending Legion troops anywhere close in response would only exacerbate the harm these insurrections were doing, by interfering with even more deployments, this time of far more valuable troops.

 

Worst of all, though, it'd have positioned the White Scars as the heroes, the knights on white horses, who put down the traitors, taking the focus away from the traitors themselves. People would've spoken about the Brotherhood of the Storm (for example) taking to the field, and how Shiban Khan was going really fast, almost as if he had painted his jetbike red. The Addaba Free Corps would've merely been the antagonists that got too much screentime going into it.

 

 

 

Re: That axe, it's not quite as weird on the internal artwork:

 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by DarkChaplain

[Indefragable]

 

 

Re: That axe, it's not quite as weird on the internal artwork:

 

 

 

 

That definitely looks better, but the whole concept and proportion of the axe seems off and ruined to me now. I can't unsee it. And now I'm starting to see it in many 40k axe designs. Oh no, what have I done...

[Moonreaper666]

I thought Billions died in each novel of the Siege of Terra? Billions lived in the Solar System outside of Mars and Terra. In one hour 500k Traitor Cultists died assaulting a single defensive fortification in Solar War

 

The destruction of EACH Hive City in LATD and First Wall alone would result in a Billion deaths. Daemons, Night Lords, Emperor's Children and Traitor Scout Titans going on killing sprees outside the Imperial Palace

[SkimaskMohawk]

Dark chaplain, that's called a spitballed concept. Cramming both plots together willy-nilly will obviously not work the greatest; the alpha legion sub plot could be dropped for example. You could also have the free corps betrayal happen at the same time as the death guard attack, or whatever other idea you could think that makes it warrant a response from the scars (though to be honest, I don't even remember why they sortied. It couldn't be because the Khan was bored, was it?). The journey is important, I agree, but having the resolution of the betrayal and if zenobi would have really cared after all the hardships they went through as "loyal" troops would be fitting. And it's hard to have them matter less in terms of actual strategic or tactical use, because dorn's strategy was just to attack the siege lines after the iron warriors had basically taken the port. They were already inside. The book about iron warriors attacking the imperial fists in the siege isn't the book for the mortal soldier plight; the book about the mortal soldier plight is that book.

 

The editorial process failed dramatically at this book.

Edited March 18, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[Billy the Squid]

I'll quickly throw in my two cents on the First wall, first and foremost Gav Thorpe commits the cardinal sin of telling us that events are happening but not showing us which runs throughout the book.

 

He tells us that the Death Guard have been repulsed from the walls and is reorganising, that the Emperor's Children have been dragging away thousands of conscripts and the World Eaters have been constantly assaulting the outer wall; perhaps most annoyingly he tells us that Perturabo's hand is at play targeting other sectors, which is what Dorn is concerned about, that the attack on the Lion's Gate Spaceport is a feint to draw strength away from other sectors. But we never actually see any of it.

 

It also makes no sense that Dorn wouldn't destroy access to the Spaceport, stating that Guilliman will need the facility to bring down reinforcements, true in part, but if Guilliman is deploying heavy materiel to to the surface of Terra he's already achieved orbital supremacy, so anything outside the Palace walls, ie: Titans are going to be targeted by lance strikes from orbit while heavy armour is going to be at a severe disadvantage when fighting in the confines of the Palace precincts, which will have been reduced to tangled rubble, here infantry equipped with anti-tank weapons and grenades are extremely dangerous to armoured vehicles where their manoeuvrability and fields of fire are limited; so why would Guilliman knowingly deploy his heavy armour into a conflict which is going to be over run by Traitor Legion infantry?

 

I'm not sure Gav Thorpe has done a lot of reading when it comes to urban warfare looking at major urban battlefields like Berlin & Stalingrad, I don't think he's a great writer when it comes to detailing actual strategy and tactical conflicts, it's more like rule of cool, some of the characters were dealt with is such a hamfisted way it made my eyes roll. 

 

Finally the whole Free Corps plot line was, in my opinion, a waste of time, it goes no where and wastes about a third of the book detailing the events of getting to the palace, time which could have been better focused on the actual events described above, or focusing on the trials of the human defenders and how they're caught in a titanic clash completely out of their control. 

 

First Wall was a disappointment for me, I don't want to get into spoilers so I've kept it brief, it feels like the book was filler and it shouldn't have been; the attack on the space port is one of the pivotal opening moves of the Siege, so it's a bit of a let down to see so little time devoted to the over arching strategy, of the great siege masters, while there's some dodgy characterising of certain Legionaries which goes against the grain of their character in previous books, it seems almost thrown together in a somewhat haphazard manner. 

 

Edit:

 

That Khârn scene towards the end, urgh ...  I had to re read it twice before I could believe what Gav wrote, and no editor picked up on it? Really, I could have slapped them all with a wet fish for letting that go through. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Billy the Squid

[OnboardG1]

I just got to the Addaba Free Corps Payoff.

 

Oh and spoilers for the film The Prestige.

 

I was not impressed, and it was clumsy enough that it sort of sours me on the rest of the book, which was enjoyable enough filler. It's not the face-heel turn that bothers me, it's the execution of what is quite an interesting idea that I dislike.

 

I think the twist lacked the preparation that I would have expected for a shift of that magnitude. The example of this sort of twist done well is in "The Prestige" written by the Nolan brothers. All through the film there are off-moments. Things that sound weird but are plausibly tied to the conversation that's happening. There's a great part where the main character says "Some days I love you, today is one of them" which sounds like the guy is a bit of an off kilter twit. The entire film is also themed to support the twist. Every part of the film is about illusion and the magician's act. Then when the payoff comes round you realise that the theming and the odd events were all pointing towards the fact that the lead character was actually two lead characters, identical twins. It all makes sense because the story carefully layered events and themes on top of one another to support the mass of the twist. Without that it would have been a dead twist for its own sake.

 

That's why I really don't like how the Zenobi/AFC story was written. It's a really interesting look into the life, trials and loves of a seemingly loyal Imperial soldier. I suspect if I go back I'll not find any evidence of actual professions of loyalty to the Emperor. But that's not really good enough. There's no indication that the AFC was an especially disloyal regiment. Yeah maybe that's normal for the HH, but where's the conflict between loyalist and traitor that you'd get in that group? Do they just declare at the last minute? Why? I don't get it. There framework supporting that twist doesn't really feel like it's in place. It was so frustratingly unsatisfying and felt like a lazy solution.

 

It would have been far more impactful if the characters that we'd grown to like and understand would have been wiped out almost instantly. I think on some more reflection the problem is that Zenobi's character arc is all a desperate desire to make some sort of difference, for Addaba. But the problem I have is that they do make a difference. This is a fight that chews up and spits out thousands who believe they can make the vital difference in this fight. The reality is that most of them will die without firing a shot. To see that goal denied would have said far more about the nature of the war and how futile all that struggle and preparation actually was in a battle between literal gods. It also would have set up a nice contrast between the actions of the small number of humans working with Keeler, and the few Army troopers who actually do manage to make a difference.

 

Instead we got a twist that collapsed into cliche because I don't think enough work was done to establish the premise that the AFC were traitors at heart.

 

I also agree that Gav Thorpe desperately needs edited.

Edited March 28, 2020 by OnboardG1

[Lord_Caerolion]

I just got to the Addaba Free Corps Payoff.

 

Oh and spoilers for the film The Prestige.

 

I was not impressed, and it was clumsy enough that it sort of sours me on the rest of the book, which was enjoyable enough filler. It's not the face-heel turn that bothers me, it's the execution of what is quite an interesting idea that I dislike.

 

I think the twist lacked the preparation that I would have expected for a shift of that magnitude. The example of this sort of twist done well is in "The Prestige" written by the Nolan brothers. All through the film there are off-moments. Things that sound weird but are plausibly tied to the conversation that's happening. There's a great part where the main character says "Some days I love you, today is one of them" which sounds like the guy is a bit of an off kilter twit. The entire film is also themed to support the twist. Every part of the film is about illusion and the magician's act. Then when the payoff comes round you realise that the theming and the odd events were all pointing towards the fact that the lead character was actually two lead characters, identical twins. It all makes sense because the story carefully layered events and themes on top of one another to support the mass of the twist. Without that it would have been a dead twist for its own sake.

 

That's why I really don't like how the Zenobi/AFC story was written. It's a really interesting look into the life, trials and loves of a seemingly loyal Imperial soldier. I suspect if I go back I'll not find any evidence of actual professions of loyalty to the Emperor. But that's not really good enough. There's no indication that the AFC was an especially disloyal regiment. Yeah maybe that's normal for the HH, but where's the conflict between loyalist and traitor that you'd get in that group? Do they just declare at the last minute? Why? I don't get it. There framework supporting that twist doesn't really feel like it's in place. It was so frustratingly unsatisfying and felt like a lazy solution.

 

It would have been far more impactful if the characters that we'd grown to like and understand would have been wiped out almost instantly. I think on some more reflection the problem is that Zenobi's character arc is all a desperate desire to make some sort of difference, for Addaba. But the problem I have is that they do make a difference. This is a fight that chews up and spits out thousands who believe they can make the vital difference in this fight. The reality is that most of them will die without firing a shot. To see that goal denied would have said far more about the nature of the war and how futile all that struggle and preparation actually was in a battle between literal gods. It also would have set up a nice contrast between the actions of the small number of humans working with Keeler, and the few Army troopers who actually do manage to make a difference.

 

Instead we got a twist that collapsed into cliche because I don't think enough work was done to establish the premise that the AFC were traitors at heart.

 

I also agree that Gav Thorpe desperately needs edited.

 

Solar War actually manages to pull this off with Nilus, or whatever his name was, when you go back to realize that he was never seen by any characters other than Mersadie, he'd conveniently leave the room just before someone else comes in, etc. Combined with the weird vision/flashbacks, in hindsight it's fairly obvious that something nefarious is going on, you just ignore it because she's a main character.

[DarkChaplain]

Honestly, that whole Mersadie/Nilus thing was blatantly obvious from early on. It's probably what bothered me the most about her entire plotline. It felt very on the nose.

 

On the flipside, Gav's Addaba plotline was a lot more subtle about it, but going through it again makes certain points stand out just enough to raise suspicion. There were enough implications strewn throughout without making it overly obvious. I certainly didn't feel like the twist came out of the blue, either. There was foreshadowing, especially through the way it conveyed just how :cussty their lives actually were for generations.

 

The "difference" they were going to make, the one Zenobi is eager for, also isn't just one of mattering in general, or being able to make a difference if they'd supported Dorn's plans. It's a difference compared to what they've grown up to, what their culture has become, that matters to them more than just killing more enemies. They're trying to throw away the shackles of systematic pseudo-slavery and took the Warmaster's cause as an opportunity to do so. They don't believe in the Pantheon, and they barely even know what the traitors are up to. It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong, only that they are trying to break away from their oppressors and punishing them for all the generations of misery. There was no point proving themselves a tiny bit valuable to their slavemasters, but there was a point in rebelling at long last, against the conqueror who toppled their civilization during the old days.

[Noserenda]

Regards the Abbada lot:

I mean it may have been too subtle for your tastes, i think its telling that you are looking for all traitors to be "bad guys" when its one of the big tragedies of the Heresy that the majority of the traitors walked onto the Path to Glory with the best of intentions. The actions of the Loyalty officers particularly jarred a bit because it turns out they were rooting out a different kind of disloyal element than we expect. 

Tbh i suspect it might have worked a bit better if the discussions of Imperial policy regards the Lectio Divinicus were before the section where the loyalty officers execute its members in the Abbadan force, to make it a bit more jarring that this force is apparently off Imperial brief?

[Moonreaper666]

I am surprised that the Blackshields under Endryd Haar don't get a spotlight in the SoT novels. That guy would have done anything to piss off Horus

[Scribe]

Blackshields are a side story at best. A logical entity to be sure, but not remotely relevant to the grandeur of the major notes of the story.

[m_r_parker]

I am surprised that the Blackshields under Endryd Haar don't get a spotlight in the SoT novels. That guy would have done anything to piss off Horus

 

Fear not, he makes an appearance in Saturnine 

[Kelborn]

They're a chance for world-building and fleshing out the setting per se like Reynolds did with Endryd.

 

Good start for interesting and cool sideplots but nothing of "larger and impactfull" scale.

[Subtleknife]

Just finished it. I liked it. I liked the AFC plot up until the conclusion, it just felt like the plot building and built and then it was just let go. I would have liked a few more pages dealing with its conclusion.

 

Still liking Katsohiro plot and it left me wanting more.