The Siege of Terra: The First Wall

[Beren]

Written, not artwork man.

 

You were complaining about a piece of art in the first place. Oh, and his Blackbook portrait has feathers and skulls attached to his pauldron too by the way.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Beren

[Fire Golem]

The Black Books aren’t inherently any more ‘accurate’ as sources as anything else, same for the novels. Them not mentioning ravens doesn’t mean anything and to be frank is a weird hill to die on. Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence and all that. Edited November 24, 2019 by fire golem

[bluntblade]

It would also be odd that a Legion would name themselves for a relatively mundane creature (as opposed to griffins or minotaurs before anyone starts) if it doesn't have any cultural significance on their world.

[mc warhammer]

i’m not overly bothered but the imagery can get a teeny bit heavy handed. dude’s name is corax, his house is the ravenspire, he has a jet pack, he quotes poems about ravens and so on. i suppose it’s not a surprise he keeps them as pets too but it also wouldn’t be shocking if he ate them for every meal and used one to stir his tea as well

[Lord_Caerolion]

Don't forget his first name is Corvus, too.

[Fire Golem]

i’m not overly bothered but the imagery can get a teeny bit heavy handed. dude’s name is corax, his house is the ravenspire, he has a jet pack, he quotes poems about ravens and so on. i suppose it’s not a surprise he keeps them as pets too but it also wouldn’t be shocking if he ate them for every meal and used one to stir his tea as well

I think the rest of that is the issue though, not a picture of him with a couple of ravens.

[Indefragable]

 

i’m not overly bothered but the imagery can get a teeny bit heavy handed. dude’s name is corax, his house is the ravenspire, he has a jet pack, he quotes poems about ravens and so on. i suppose it’s not a surprise he keeps them as pets too but it also wouldn’t be shocking if he ate them for every meal and used one to stir his tea as well

I think the rest of that is the issue though, not a picture of him with a couple of ravens.

Yea all things considered the RG are ok with a raven skull here and there compared to Wolf McWofly Wolfson, 4th son of the Wolf, born on the 5th day of Wolf in the year of the Wolf under the Wolf moon.

[mc warhammer]

 

i’m not overly bothered but the imagery can get a teeny bit heavy handed. dude’s name is corax, his house is the ravenspire, he has a jet pack, he quotes poems about ravens and so on. i suppose it’s not a surprise he keeps them as pets too but it also wouldn’t be shocking if he ate them for every meal and used one to stir his tea as well

I think the rest of that is the issue though, not a picture of him with a couple of ravens.

don’t have strong feelings either way, personally. i could see a take that this is a remembrancer’s interpretive painting (in the same way you have angels and random religious things floating about in nativity artwork) or that corax was a really strong believer in a consistent theme. either is fine i guess

[aa.logan]

I’ve had a really busy week, made much busier that I felt compelled to plough through this at every available opportunity. I may change my mind in the coming days, but I think it’s one of the better books in the series, maybe the best of The Siege to date and comfortably on of Gav’s best of the 40 he has now written for BL. The fact we’re so close to the end of the series is obviously a pretty big constraint on the plot of this book, more than any others in the series perhaps, the Siege books can be predicted before publication, but this still manages to tell a great story.

 

In terms of the Astartes we see, it’s pretty much an all-star cast. I can’t imagine ‘fans’ of any of those featured having any complaints about how they are portrayed, Khârn in particular is as charismatic but broken as ever. The Iron Warriors act as Iron Warriors should, schemers with chips on their shoulder who are ultimately resigned to getting dirty and the Fists are pleasingly resolute but far from infallible.

 

Sanguinius and the Khârn don’t really get much of a look in, but Perterabo is glorious. He’s at his best when a displaying a mix of insecurity and arrogance, and though he maybe has one too many expository monologues in the first third of the book, is an awful lot of fun. Throughout the HH, Dorn has been a bit of an enigma, I’ve read all of it, but I’m not sure if I can recall much about him other than cold homeworld and he alternates between pragmatism and RAGE. Sadly, this book doesn’t shed much more light on his personality and motivations, though it does show us the scale of his undertakings in preparing the Palace and the toll that this coordination is taking on him; obviously he cannot oversee everything at once, and even his best underlings are not him, so mistakes will inevitably be made.

 

Malcador and the Custodes make for an interesting set of characters, their own experiences of the Emperor influencing what they think they should do in his absence, and they get involved in some nice what-ifs, dripping in pathos.

 

Focus on mortals is what I’ve been wanting the series to have been all along; while the Astartes are rightly front and centre in the narrative, in even the biggest estimates of Legion size they would still be outnumbered by Army forces and support staff. I accept they might not have agency or much impact on the narrative, mortal humans present such a good viewpoint of the Heresy they really should have featured more than they have so far. The decision of Guy to have so much mortal focus in the previous book is something I fully supported, but Gav has gone a step further here. Zenobi is a great character, and her arc is arguably the best part of the book. She is a young hive factotum worker turned Imperial Militia member, someone for who the Heresy has been the backdrop for most of her conscious life. Through her we see portents of what the Imperium is to become in the 41st Millennium but also we get one of the best portrayals to date of the life of the ordinary citizen in 30k. Her fellow soldiers aren’t quite as fleshed out, but are an interesting bunch, their obvious humanity a nice contrast to the Astartes who have dominated the Heresy. We also get another character who can be added to my BL LGBT tally, which I obviously find pleasing- at current rates, I may lose track of the total by 2023...

 

I’m not sure if it is because I so recently read Valdor, but both books have the same sort of handle on life for those on the fringes of Terra. In the afterword, Gav makes it clear that a lot of what happens during the Heresy is a direct consequence of events in the Unification Wars, which further ties the two books together. I’m no African scholar, but Zenobi’s background draws on some archetypes and feels suitably different to what we’ve typically seen without veering into caricature or parody- the odd bits of dialect slipped in alongside standard Gothic are really effective, though I fear how badly this could be mangled in the upcoming audiobook. I’ve always loved the corrupted names for Terran regions like the Yndonisian Bloc, so references to the Addabba Hive, Arabadlands and the like were perfect for me

 

The book also feels like the first to put Chaos front and centre- Gods are indirectly referred to, Nurgle and Khorne are namechecked on multiple occasions, Malcador openly refers to the Four Powers- there is now no hiding from the true nature of the enemy at this point. We perhaps see the clearest example of why the Emperor was so against being worshipped in the series, but why the pragmatism is needed in responding to the Imperial Cult that inadvertently allows it to flourish. Keeler is involved in some really interesting developments, but if I’m honest she’s pretty dull and one-dimensional, which is a slight disappointment especially in contrast to the strength of the other mortal characters.

 

All in all, this book is excellent- Gav’s name has been conspicuously absent from the speculation of authors pulling double duty in the Siege, his afterword doesn’t have the air of finality that others have either; if he is penning another, based on current form, it would absolutely be in safe hands.

Edited November 25, 2019 by aa.logan

[Preliminary Bombardment]

I'm about 30-40% through, and yes I can confirm this is probably the best thing Gav has written.

[b1soul]

If anything, the FW black books are less accurate as they are in-universe texts involving the authour's best historiographic attempts

[Kelborn]

Just like every other history book so it's accurate enough to work with. ;)

[b1soul]

A lot of history books are not accurate, depending on who produced them...but yes, accurate enough for running your tabletop games.

 

My point is that BL novels should be more accurate.

[bluntblade]

But the images in them are in-universe composited from photos, so I think they are reliable.

[Marshal Rohr]

If you are talking about the Primarchs portraits, they are portraits. Not representations of an event.

[bluntblade]

No, I meant the pics in the FW books.

[Marshal Rohr]

The black book sketches are concept art, I believe.

[Lucerne]

I’ve had a really busy week, made much busier that I felt compelled to plough through this at every available opportunity. I may change my mind in the coming days, but I think it’s one of the better books in the series, maybe the best of The Siege to date and comfortably on of Gav’s best of the 40 he has now written for BL. The fact we’re so close to the end of the series is obviously a pretty big constraint on the plot of this book, more than any others in the series perhaps, the Siege books can be predicted before publication, but this still manages to tell a great story.

 

In terms of the Astartes we see, it’s pretty much an all-star cast. I can’t imagine ‘fans’ of any of those featured having any complaints about how they are portrayed, Khârn in particular is as charismatic but broken as ever. The Iron Warriors act as Iron Warriors should, schemers with chips on their shoulder who are ultimately resigned to getting dirty and the Fists are pleasingly resolute but far from infallible.

 

Sanguinius and the Khârn don’t really get much of a look in, but Perterabo is glorious. He’s at his best when a displaying a mix of insecurity and arrogance, and though he maybe has one too many expository monologues in the first third of the book, is an awful lot of fun. Throughout the HH, Dorn has been a bit of an enigma, I’ve read all of it, but I’m not sure if I can recall much about him other than cold homeworld and he alternates between pragmatism and RAGE. Sadly, this book doesn’t shed much more light on his personality and motivations, though it does show us the scale of his undertakings in preparing the Palace and the toll that this coordination is taking on him; obviously he cannot oversee everything at once, and even his best underlings are not him, so mistakes will inevitably be made.

 

Malcador and the Custodes make for an interesting set of characters, their own experiences of the Emperor influencing what they think they should do in his absence, and they get involved in some nice what-ifs, dripping in pathos.

 

Focus on mortals is what I’ve been wanting the series to have been all along; while the Astartes are rightly front and centre in the narrative, in even the biggest estimates of Legion size they would still be outnumbered by Army forces and support staff. I accept they might not have agency or much impact on the narrative, mortal humans present such a good viewpoint of the Heresy they really should have featured more than they have so far. The decision of Guy to have so much mortal focus in the previous book is something I fully supported, but Gav has gone a step further here. Zenobi is a great character, and her arc is arguably the best part of the book. She is a young hive factotum worker turned Imperial Militia member, someone for who the Heresy has been the backdrop for most of her conscious life. Through her we see portents of what the Imperium is to become in the 41st Millennium but also we get one of the best portrayals to date of the life of the ordinary citizen in 30k. Her fellow soldiers aren’t quite as fleshed out, but are an interesting bunch, their obvious humanity a nice contrast to the Astartes who have dominated the Heresy. We also get another character who can be added to my BL LGBT tally, which I obviously find pleasing- at current rates, I may lose track of the total by 2023...

 

I’m not sure if it is because I so recently read Valdor, but both books have the same sort of handle on life for those on the fringes of Terra. In the afterword, Gav makes it clear that a lot of what happens during the Heresy is a direct consequence of events in the Unification Wars, which further ties the two books together. I’m no African scholar, but Zenobi’s background draws on some archetypes and feels suitably different to what we’ve typically seen without veering into caricature or parody- the odd bits of dialect slipped in alongside standard Gothic are really effective, though I fear how badly this could be mangled in the upcoming audiobook. I’ve always loved the corrupted names for Terran regions like the Yndonisian Bloc, so references to the Addabba Hive, Arabadlands and the like were perfect for me

 

The book also feels like the first to put Chaos front and centre- Gods are indirectly referred to, Nurgle and Khorne are namechecked on multiple occasions, Malcador openly refers to the Four Powers- there is now no hiding from the true nature of the enemy at this point. We perhaps see the clearest example of why the Emperor was so against being worshipped in the series, but why the pragmatism is needed in responding to the Imperial Cult that inadvertently allows it to flourish. Keeler is involved in some really interesting developments, but if I’m honest she’s pretty dull and one-dimensional, which is a slight disappointment especially in contrast to the strength of the other mortal characters.

 

All in all, this book is excellent- Gav’s name has been conspicuously absent from the speculation of authors pulling double duty in the Siege, his afterword doesn’t have the air of finality that others have either; if he is penning another, based on current form, it would absolutely be in safe hands.

Not so much as an Alpha Legion namedrop?

[m_r_parker]

I'm about two-thirds of the way through this book, and if I'm being honest I'm not loving it. It has some good parts to it, but overall I'm not picking this book up because I can't wait to see what happens next, but because I know I need to finish it before the next one comes out. 

 

I won't go too much into spoilers here, but I'll just put a few things down that I'm not enjoying. And just before I start, yes this is probably some of Gav Thorpe's best work in years; his portrayal of Perturabo and the Iron Warriors has been spot-on, but it's still not on the same level as other authors in this series. 

 

My main gripe with this book is a constant jumping around on timelines within the various story threads. The novel itself is based around an assault fronted by the Iron Warriors on the Lions Gate spaceport, and the start of each thread's portion within a chapter makes reference as to when it is occurring in relation to the  assault starting - and that is all fine and dandy, I've no complaints about the mechanism because it helps me feel grounded in when certain activities are occurring and the scale of the conflict. What happens often is that after finishing one section set (for example) 8 days after the assault has started, the next section occurs 6 days after the assault has started - and therefore 2 days before the section you've just finished reading would start. And this novel does this many times, and I'm constantly looking back-and-forth to see when the previous section I've just read happens to try and correlate it with the passage I'm currently reading and others that I have read. I think I understand the why behind it; Gav is breaking out sections of the novel into groups of characters that wouldn't interact with those in other sections, so is making sure to spread content out so that one chapter isn't too heavy in plot line C and making sure plot line E has some page count early before it all comes to a head. Maybe this wouldn't be quite as jarring for others, and honestly I think if there wasn't a time reference in front of every section within the chapter I wouldn't be able to tell it's out of sync - but for me this is the author (and the editor) shooting themselves in the foot.

 

There's a large portion of this novel given over to sub-plot around a group of humans who have been corralled from their factories on Terra and conscripted into the prototype Imperial Guard and shipped off to the palace to fight in the front lines, and I'm also not enjoying this either. Gave does some great work in his descriptions of what they are going through, primarily focussing on a single character for these scenes, but I'm not 100% sure what these passages are doing, if anything. I get the feeling there's going to be some sort of twist at the end of the novel regarding these humans, and I hope it's going to be good because at the moment those sections aren't paying off for me. 

 

What I consider to be the main 'meat' of the novel is the assault on the Lions Gate spaceport, and in fairness this is actually written very well - I'm honestly surprised this came out of Gav and not somebody else. The Iron Warriors have great representation here, not just in terms of page and word count but in how they actually act like Iron Warriors. Even Perturabo, whose character has been butchered at times to be petty and paranoid, makes a good appearance and feels like Gav actually get's what Pert is about. The conflict (so far) feels less 'bolter porn' and feels more tactical - more is made of how squads and groups are distributed and positioned rather than just bolt rounds flying through the air, the commanders actually make good tactical decisions and it feels like a game of chess rather than a straightforward slugging match.

 

However, when it comes to the Astartes there's a problem in my eyes, and that is the over-dependence on certain characters. For assaults that are literally consisting of tens of thousands of Astartes per legion, the same small group of Astartes is used over and over again through this book (and previous, and I'm guessing others). Forrix, Falk, Kroeger, Abaddon, Zardu Layak, Typhus, Khârn, Sigismund, Rann - all have prominent parts in the novel, most have appeared somewhere in the previous two in the series, and no doubt a lot of these will also be present for a large part of the rest of the series. For a series that should be highlighting the scale of the Siege and the magnitude of fronts to the traitors attacking the Imperial Palace, constantly going back to the same characters all the time makes it feel small again - like this is some minor planetary compliance rather than the largest conflict in human history.

 

I'm hoping the final third of the book will change my mind about some of the pieces I'm not happy with, but I'm not holding my breath. I came in with low expectations (even though it's a BL flagship product, Gav's work lately hasn't been great) and largely I think it's better than I expected, but not as good as Solar War.

[aa.logan]

Full disclosure- I always ignore time stamps and dates at the start of chapters, I appreciate that for most readers they can add to the tension, but for me they’re just confusing.

 

One thing I didn’t cover in my earlier post is how Gav conveys the geographic scale of the conflict. It’s far too easy to fall into a space-is-big Douglas Adams hole when considering the scale of 40k. The distance between planets is barely comprehensible to the reader, let alone the span of the galaxy. With this book being set on Terra, Gav allows us to appreciate the scale in a way we’ve not seen before, as the conscripted soldiers slog up the Eastern seaboard of Africa across to the Arabadlands; this isn’t glossed over in a few pages, their slow pace really helped give me a proper and relatable understanding of size that is pretty rare in the setting.

[Marshal Loss]

The black book sketches are concept art, I believe.

 

In-universe they are intended as Remembrancer sketches

 

Anyway on topic: half-way through the book and so far I agree with Parker above. Will write up more detailed thoughts when I'm done. At the moment I think it's better than LATD but significantly worse than Solar War.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The black book sketches are concept art, I believe.

 

In-universe they are intended as Remembrancer sketches

 

Anyway on topic: half-way through the book and so far I agree with Parker above. Will write up more detailed thoughts when I'm done. At the moment I think it's better than LATD but significantly worse than Solar War.

 

 

Ooooh, I love that. 

[Morovir]

I remember in Pharos the black book sketches they used as interior art were described as being from Dantioch's sketchbook.

[bluntblade]

The black book sketches are concept art, I believe.

Not the sketches, the "XIX Legion Terminator" sort. There's often a "reconstructed from picts taken on the eve of This War or That Offensive".

[b1soul]

Are there any credible arguments that the HH novels might be in-universe texts?