Triple Vindicare Assassins to beat Iron Hands

[L30n1d4s]

I am seriously considering going back to Imperial Soup, even with the loss of Combat Doctrines and Super Doctrines, so I can access Assassins and handle Iron Hands more effectively.

 

Specifically, I am looking at x3 Vindicares who, on their own, should reliably kill Ferrous turn 1 or, alternatively, kill the bearer of the Ironstone, in turn opening the rest of my opponent's Iron Hands army up for methodical destruction the rest of the game.

 

Similarly, against many of the other new Marine lists that are gaining traction in the meta with the new Codex/Supplements, I think having access to three Vindicares would be clutch, as it provides a hard counter to many of their very powerful, hero-centric forces.

 

I know many will say the loss of Combat Doctrines and Super Doctrines is not worth it, but my Space Marines will still get access to all the new Strats, WL Traits, Relics, Psychic Powers, and improved units, which is where the real power is IMHO.

[Archon_77]

Raven Guard Eliminators.  

[L30n1d4s]

So, the problem with RG Eliminators is:

 

1 - They have to wait for turn 2/Tactical Doctine to "power up." Additionally, they are 48" range, which is good, but still avoidable by a good opponent.

 

2 - They don't ignore Invuls (or in Ferrous' case, they only bring his armor down to a 4+ anyway) outside of MWs.

 

3 - They are pretty darn easy to kill if your opponent goes first, i.e. a buffed WW Scorpius can easily kill a squad of Eliminators in cover a turn, as can a squad of Lascannon Devastators (unlike a Vindicare, who is shielded as a character and also has -2 to hit and a 4++ from other Snipers when in cover).

 

Basically, if you don't go first or if your opponent is savvy, then they are pretty easy to mitigate (and, of course, if you don't play RG, then you can't access them without losing some or all of your bonuses anyway).

[Race Bannon]

This is almost heresy :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

3 Vindicares are 255pts and 9 Eliminators are 216pts. You'll get decent fire out of 9 guys in 3 units that's for sure unless your opponent goes exceptionally far to kill them.

 

The real problem is getting line of sight to the blighters.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is almost heresy :lol:

Almost ??!

[justicarius6]

Eliminators can do more work I think, especially that 1st round when their weapons get an extra -1 AP. That said, the price of eliminators right now is extortionate. Those 9 guys are £90 (even more in Canada where I am now).

[NatBrannigan]

Eh, If you're going Soup just get a Shadowsword and watch your opponents face drop as it removes a Tank a turn regardless of the endless buffs ;)

[MajorNese]

3 Vindicares are 255pts and 9 Eliminators are 216pts. You'll get decent fire out of 9 guys in 3 units that's for sure unless your opponent goes exceptionally far to kill them.

 

The real problem is getting line of sight to the blighters.

I've done the math back in the RG forum on average, it does take until turn 2 to kill Feirros. T5 and FnP helps against S5 sniper rifles.

But the Ironstone bearer is a different matter, that one should die rather quickly - unless it's a gravis captain, that guy will die in one round to Eliminators.

 

Which is all moot when those characters hide out of LoS, which might be a problem considering those guys can always hide behind an Executioner.

In that case, Eliminators can still target those guys, but it does take more time to kill them.

 

Vindicare can't ignore LoS, and ignoring invuls is a moot point on a model with 2+/5++ and AP-3 - 5+ armour or 5++ invul are the same.

[Captain Idaho]

Killing a crucial character by turn 2 is good mind.

 

However, hiding those characters could cause you problems.

 

Beating the Iron Hands, as an Ultramarines player, points me down a path of massed fire from D1 weapons, using things like the Seal of Oath to help kill a critical target.

 

Heavy bolters and assault Cannons seem crucial there against T8. Anything T7 or less is just as likely to be damaged by those Tactical Doctrine bolters.

 

Apart from that, I'd have to target objectives and infantry and ignore vehicles as much as possible (gulp)

[Son of Sacrifice]

I feel like we shouldn't lose access to Doctrines for including an assassin. They are designed specifically as allies after all. Other components of soup I can accept.

[CCE1981]

Eh, If you're going Soup just get a Shadowsword and watch your opponents face drop as it removes a Tank a turn regardless of the endless buffs ;)

Shadowsword couldn’t do that to a Leviathan last codex after three rounds of shooting it.

[MajorNese]

I feel like we shouldn't lose access to Doctrines for including an assassin. They are designed specifically as allies after all. Other components of soup I can accept.

"I want to triple pick this cherry, instead of our less efficient in-codex solution.

But other cherries should be kept out by the anti cherrypicking rule so we have to use our in-codex solutions, even if they are less efficient."

 

Sorry, but either you go soup or you don't. Knights were originally intended as allies too. Inquisition too. And several others. Where to draw the line?

[Slasher956]

I can see an argument for the stratagem recruited assassin not braking doctrine ( you dont know hes there after all :p)... how ever any allied detachment should stop it.

[MajorNese]

I for one am glad that they do break doctrine even with the strat - less cherrypicking, more focus on using your own faction the best possible way instead of using easy mode.

 

And a single Vindicare won't do much that Eliminators couldn't. With LoS they might have a chance to do something, without (and that's easy since Replusor Executioners are on second place after the Leviathan) they are entirely useless. Other protection mechanisms are possible too, like Cogitated Martyrdom.

 

Beating the Iron Hands, as an Ultramarines player, points me down a path of massed fire from D1 weapons, using things like the Seal of Oath to help kill a critical target.

Heavy bolters and assault Cannons seem crucial there against T8.

Exactly. Anything inflicting MW (Hellfire shell, psykers, Hunter-Slayer missile, snipers) and simple weight of fire will wear that thing down as usual, even if the usual 2D and d6D weaponry doesn't work that well. Weaponry with S5 AP-2  1D doesn't change a bit when targeting a Levi instead of a Rhino.

 

It's funny that most anti-IH discussions revolve around being unable to over-sledgehammer the sledgehammer faction.

Sure, that faction title usually belonged to the blue mob clustering every available big gun around Girlyman, but now IH are true to their fluff and actually capable of doing things with vehicles and heavy weapons. To beat them, you might have to try something else. Or would you try to beat Tau by shooting them from as far away as possible?

[Mandragola]

You cannot snipe IH characters*. The cogitated martyrdom rule means they can just pass off wounds to intercessors. That assumes you’re playing on a board with no LoS-blocking terrain of course, because if there’s even a single wall anywhere the Ironstone guy and Feirros will be stood behind it. They’ll probably have some intercessors with them, so they can pass the wounds off even if you somehow hit them with something that ignores LoS.

 

Unfortunately, you have to go through the tanks the hard way. I think it might not actually be possible. A 2k list can just have so much pain in it for you and there’s so little that you can do back.

 

Glasshammer just posted a batrep trying out the list. A totally thrown together IH list of 3 executioners, 2 storm ravens and 4 characters (feirros, LT, cap and libby, all with jump packs (apart from Feirros obvs)) went against Mani Cheeda and his 8-flyer eldar army that went 5:0 at the LGT. They called it at the bottom of turn 3, with only one plane and hardly anything else alive on the Eldar team. The IH guy lost his storm ravens on T1 (after they took out Mani's bikes), nothing on turn 2 and his captain on T3, in exchange for a dead plane.

 

And to stress the point this was the first time they’d ever used IH. They plain forgot several of the executioners’ guns for the whole game and they had plasma, not HLCs, so they kept damaging themselves. And they played against one of the best players in the world with his best-performing tournament army.

 

The strange thing was that they thought Feirros’ 5++ bubble was the problem. I thought it was the Ironstone. Combine both, along with 6+++ and Feirros essentially building about 30% of a repulsor every turn, and you have units that will not die, cannot be tied up and effectively shoot any target in 40k – or many targets at once.

 

*I mean it’s hypothetically possible, but not a valid strategy against them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Nah, this is a great change for the game. People forget that the game used to be only be mono faction, and it allowed for more actual balance. A unit didn't have to compete with like 11 other faction's for any given role, just with its own book's.

 

now I can see lists like white scar successors, where the strength isn't based on doctrine usage, taking a chunk of assassins if marine characters like feirros get really out of hand. But as good as he his, he still dies in two rounds from eliminators, and if he's hidden out of los, only the eliminators would be able to target him in the first place.

 

Edit: and totally forgot about martyrdom. The power is pretty brutal since its a) not linked to a specific character and b) after the saving throws are performed. Lots of fun, looks like it'd be melee assassins if you wanted to gimp iron hands.

[Mandragola]

Well in theory, I guess you could try to get into melee. I can’t see it working though. Can you? Also, at that point you may as well not be using assassins. Marines have various decent assault units of their own – just not many that can expect to get through 3 IH executioners.

 

Remember, IH have a strat for 4+ overwatch near a chapter master and -2” off your charge roll when you go for a repulsor. If you bring a lot of assault stuff the IH guy can circle the wagons around his characters leaving no spaces for you to put models. You do not get to charge the characters except by also charging an executioner, because you’d have to be within 1” of it. That’s if you can fly over the executioners, which assassins cannot.

 

The triple executioner list is insane. There are various people saying “Oh I would just <insert barely thought-through plan> and win”. They’re wrong. A crapload of harlequin haywire bikers is the only thing that looks like it might have a chance right now. Unfortunately it’s of slightly limited use against everyone else and IH are good at killing it back.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well against buddies first try list, there are a variety of options that can work. An optimised one might be a different story.

 

As for melee killing, you're right that marine smash/melee characters could probably handle it better. In that respect I'd say raven guard would do it best since they have the means to get through the overwatch and in position turn 1

[MajorNese]

Well in theory, I guess you could try to get into melee. I can’t see it working though. Can you? Also, at that point you may as well not be using assassins. Marines have various decent assault units of their own – just not many that can expect to get through 3 IH executioners.

And Executioners, with only 5++ and no Duty Eternal, are massively less survivable than a leviathan. IF have a rumored CT that exactly negates the Ironstone, so that would be a hard counter without even leaving the codex.

 

Let's wait until the remaining parts of C:SM might be released some day, and see if possible hard counters make IH less attractive. The sky was already falling when UM supplement was dropped, since they were so much better than those guys without supplement. Now I don't see any more talks about UM being massively better than everyone else...

[Mandragola]

I just did the maths for a (rumoured) Fists Leviathan firing at an IH repulsor. 20 shots, hitting on 2s with rerolls, wounding on 5s with rerolls of 1s, 5++ saves and 6+++, with hits causing 2 damage. The result was 8.4 damage.

 

This is not a hard counter. A Leviathan is out-ranged by a repulsor and a Fists one presumably won't have the Ironstone or 6+++. An IH leviathan obviously does half as much damage in a mirror match vs other iron hands - doing less damage per turn than Feirros can heal.

 

A Fists Deredeo actually does 6.3 damage to an IH repulsor, for significantly less cost than the Leviathan and with a 5++ aura and 36" range. That might be a better way to go.

 

Stormhawks are another interesting option. Repulsors have -2 to hit them. Equip them with heavy bolters, stormcannons and twin assault cannons and try to chew through things with 1D weapons. They're clearly better as Iron Hands than any other chapter, obviously, because they're vehicles and lack potms.

 

But to be clear, nothing actually works. The repulsors outshoot everything, without exception, and assaulting them is suicidal. I think only some version of mortal wound spam, like IF devastator centurions, stands a meaningful chance. And those HLDs are a massive threat to the centurions.

 

I've been looking at Raven Guard using the master of ambush trait to get assault centurions near the executioners. It stands a chance if you go first, and if your opponent has never played 40k before and fails to screen his repulsors. Those aren't factors I feel I can rely on. The list also dies on its bottom against Eldar planes.

 

My proposed 2k list is as follows:

 

Battalion:

Primaris Captain with stalker rifle and Iron Stone. Make a chapter master.

Primaris Lieutenant with stalker rifle. Maybe give this guy a relic gun or something, if you like.

3x5 intercessors with whatever.

 

Spearhead

Feirros (Warlord)

3 HLC executioners with icarus pods

 

Air wing

3 Storm Hawks with heavy bolters and icarus cannon.

 

I think the storm hawks are pretty horrible. They each have 21 shots with +1 to hit anything that flies and rerolls of 1s, all at S5+ and -2 ap. So they can mow down any troops or mortar squads you might find skulking on objectives, and maybe assassinate the odd character too. The whole list fires something like 200 shots per turn if everything is in range.

[Happy-inquisitor]

You cannot snipe IH characters*. The cogitated martyrdom rule means they can just pass off wounds to intercessors. That assumes you’re playing on a board with no LoS-blocking terrain of course, because if there’s even a single wall anywhere the Ironstone guy and Feirros will be stood behind it. They’ll probably have some intercessors with them, so they can pass the wounds off even if you somehow hit them with something that ignores LoS.

 

 

 

Honestly if 216 points of snipers force 1100 points of IH deathstar to hide in a corner to keep the characters alive then I have a viable way to win the game on objectives - because they just gave me most of the table. I mean sure if they have exactly the perfect terrain layout they need and they get to infiltrate first so I can't stick some dudes up there to mess with their plans and the mission has enough kill points in it that they don't really need to do anything but park in the middle and shoot stuff - but that does not describe the sorts of games I play at all.

 

You can't block LOS to an infantry character with just a Repulsor, there is a 1cm gap under that tank so my snipers can shoot him in the knees. You also need terrain to finish blocking LOS which massively limits your freedom of movement with that big blob of stuff. 

 

It's not like I did not want to take Eliminators anyway, they are one of the best units in the new codex.

[Mandragola]

The point about seeing under repulsors needs addressing I guess. You can do this, but not if you're in an elevated position. It still doesn't help if the target is out of sight and it doesn't do anything about cogitated martyrdom.

 

Realistically, an IH player is going to hate on enemy eliminators pretty hard. They won't get all that many shots. I guess this is an argument for vindicares, which get to use the character rules to stay alive.

 

Still, if you think sniping the characters will work, give it a try. I've already said why I don't think it will but both of us are just theorising now and it can only be proven in play. Good luck to you.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

The point about seeing under repulsors needs addressing I guess. You can do this, but not if you're in an elevated position. It still doesn't help if the target is out of sight and it doesn't do anything about cogitated martyrdom.

 

Realistically, an IH player is going to hate on enemy eliminators pretty hard. They won't get all that many shots. I guess this is an argument for vindicares, which get to use the character rules to stay alive.

 

Still, if you think sniping the characters will work, give it a try. I've already said why I don't think it will but both of us are just theorising now and it can only be proven in play. Good luck to you.

 

I do not thing snipers are an auto-win against the IH deathstar but I do think they are a viable counter that means the game will come down to relative player skill and luck. Which is as it should be.  I definitely do not think any part of Repulsors not blocking LOS needs addressing - it is an inherent weakness that most vehicles with the Fly keyword share.

 

The very existence of Eliminators will force the IH player to put the Ironstone on an expensive character like a Gravis Captain - because the cheap Ironstone caddies are prone to dying to the Executioner rounds even when hidden. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well repulsors have a flying pole that's about an inch high, people claiming they block los completely to their models are lying.