40k Slowness - The game killer

[Grimdark_Garage]

A few topics i have been eyeballing have complaints on just how slow 40k has become.

 

At the start of 8th, when all we had were the Indexes, i remember the joy of smashing a game in just over 2 hours!

With the added bloat that is inherent in advancing the game, i find it very hard to get to a 4th turn in 3 hours!

 

What are the biggest time sinks when playing 40k and does anyone have a ways to mitigate these delays?

[Marshal Rohr]

I watched a YouTube video another frater posted of a normal 40k game played with Apocalypse rules. Went by super quick. If time is a constraint people should consider doing that. You can fit three or four games into a single Saturday. Edited October 14, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Panzer]

Early this edition games ended a few turns earlier than they do now with the newer missions, so it taking longer is not necessarily due to it becoming slower.

Edited October 14, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Slasher956]

write a list in Battlescribe then print it out (or PDF it) with rules and stats in summary... and then see how much space is taken up by the list, the model stats, the weapon stats and the special rules....

 

my 2K sisters list has a page of special rules out of 10 - which luckly apply to 90% of the units (4 pages of weapon & model stats)

my 2k Ulthew list has 2 pages of special rules out of 7

 

edit - the point i'm making is its rare that an army doesnt have a page of special rules ... some of which apply to 1 unit in 1 phase... so remembering all of these plus the weapon stats isnt easy so you end up taking time looking them up.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Slasher956

[Panzer]

write a list in Battlescribe then print it out (or PDF it) with rules and stats in summary... and then see how much space is taken up by the list, the model stats, the weapon stats and the special rules....

 

my 2K sisters list has a page of special rules out of 10 - which luckly apply to 90% of the units (4 pages of weapon & model stats)

my 2k Ulthew list has 2 pages of special rules out of 7

 

edit - the point i'm making is its rare that an army doesnt have a page of special rules ... some of which apply to 1 unit in 1 phase... so remembering all of these plus the weapon stats isnt easy so you end up taking time looking them up.

 

That's a strawman. The amount of special rules doesn't really translate to the pace of the game. There are special rules that take up time but there are also special rules that simply improve stats which actually make games go quicker because models die faster.

[Slasher956]

thought i'd highlighted the point in my edit ... however to expand the point is the time you spend looking the special rules up...

 

now if you play the same list week in week out then you will remember them and so the game will go quicker as you are not looking them up.

 

As an example I play limited amount and chop & change my list a fair bit so i'm slower than another player...

 

compare two players who have a tournament list that they've been practising with for a couple of months playing a game against somone whos just brought the arm & a sporadic player .. both games are the same mission with the same terrain... they guys who have been practising their lists will be a quicker game than the other pair.

 

 

I'm not saying this is the only reason for slow games but it is a reason that helps contribute for slow games.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Slasher956

[Panzer]

That's not the game being slow though. It's people not knowing their rules. That's not really GWs fault. Beginners always take longer than veterans of a system.

 

That kind of argument is similar to saying horde armies are bad because it takes people longer to play them over a knight or Custodes army. It's true, but not a relevant argument.

Edited October 14, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Slasher956]

That's not the game being slow though. It's people not knowing their rules. That's not really GWs fault. Beginners always take longer than veterans of a system.

 

That kind of argument is similar to saying horde armies are bad because it takes people longer to play them over a knight or Custodes army. It's true, but not a relevant argument.

 

OP - asks...

What are the biggest time sinks when playing 40k and does anyone have a ways to mitigate these delays?

 

 

so how is a comment about the time taken looking up rules not relevant?  the solution to that point is to learn your rules and to play more (not always practical for everyone), 

another time sink as you've just mentioned is movement - solutions, movement trays, not being so exact on measurements (if you start not caring about 1/16th of an inch in shooting or checking if your in an aura) you find your not spending as much time worrying about the movement of the 100+ ork boyz

 

having half a dozen rules with similar names which do similar things.. like the bodyguard rules .. also causes confusion and leading to both players having to double check their rules

[Panzer]

 

That's not the game being slow though. It's people not knowing their rules. That's not really GWs fault. Beginners always take longer than veterans of a system.

 

That kind of argument is similar to saying horde armies are bad because it takes people longer to play them over a knight or Custodes army. It's true, but not a relevant argument.

 

OP - asks...

What are the biggest time sinks when playing 40k and does anyone have a ways to mitigate these delays?

 

 

so how is a comment about the time taken looking up rules not relevant?  the solution to that point is to learn your rules and to play more (not always practical for everyone), 

another time sink as you've just mentioned is movement - solutions, movement trays, not being so exact on measurements (if you start not caring about 1/16th of an inch in shooting or checking if your in an aura) you find your not spending as much time worrying about the movement of the 100+ ork boyz

 

having half a dozen rules with similar names which do similar things.. like the bodyguard rules .. also causes confusion and leading to both players having to double check their rules

 

 

Because the special rules aren't necessarily at fault here. It's you (not you personally) not knowing your rules. I for example don't have to look up my special rules all the time so the special rules you complain about add literally nothing to the duration of a game for me. Most tournament players shouldn't have to look up their special rules all the time either.

The practical advice here would be to practice. If practice can improve the time it takes to play a match then at its core the rules aren't at fault. The game is not slow. You make the game slow.

[Karhedron]

Early this edition games ended a few turns earlier than they do now with the newer missions, so it taking longer is not necessarily due to it becoming slower.

I think you are right. They have reigned in alpha-strikes which were a big feature of early-8th and "Prepared Positions" has taken some of the sting out of going second. Games 2 years ago may have finished sooner but strongly favoured the player who went first. I prefer a slightly longer game where it feels like both sides have a more even chance.

[Halandaar]

having half a dozen rules with similar names which do similar things.. like the bodyguard rules .. also causes confusion and leading to both players having to double check their rules

 

Hmm, not sure about that. Every single Codex has the same rule in the back of it with a different name, be it Defenders of Humanity, Extensions of the Hive Mind, Vanguard of the Dark City and so on. We all know what that one does.

 

Anyway, games at the beginning of 8th were probably too short if anything, because you had very limited faction rules, minimal stratagems, yet the game was still heavily reliant on alpha strikes deciding games very early. I don't think that having been reigned in, and games extended as a result, is necessarily a bad thing.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Halandaar

[MARK0SIAN]

I think games are taking longer now but I don’t think it’s time sinks that cause it.

 

I actually think it’s the early games of 8th being misleading in terms of time that results in this perception.

 

At the start of 8th, games were often essentially over once you’d rolled for first turn. One side could alpha strike the other into nothing and games were generally decided by turn two.

 

There’s still issues with that but new missions/rules mean that games aren’t decided quite as quickly.

[Ishagu]

Games are taking longer because balance has improved - meaning they last more turns, and the rules are more dynamic with unique deployment types and unit combinations.

 

A lot of players are pretty slow, and that's fine to an extent in a casual setting. We've seen competitive games introduce chess clocks to great effect.

 

They shouldn't be getting slower (and they aren't), that's the key point. Speed has been brought up because various topics have suggested we resurrect ideas from the past that served to slow the game down beyond what they offer as fun in return.

There has been no slowdown of the game over the last year.

 

Having multiple similar rules should not be causing confusion as you only have to know your own army rules, I find this whole claim a bit strange. Same thing with Bolter weapons - it doesn't matter how many variants exist, you only need to know the ones equipped on your models.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Ishagu

[Trevak Dal]

I watched a YouTube video another frater posted of a normal 40k game played with Apocalypse rules. Went by super quick. If time is a constraint people should consider doing that. You can fit three or four games into a single Saturday.

Got a link sir?

 

The thing that gets me, is that GW took away universal special rules to bring back purple prose rules.

 

Tau battle suits have "manta deployment", space marine terminators have "teleportatium deployment". It's functionally deep strike, up to 9" away from enemy models wherever you want.

 

Now if they implemented it so that, well terminators could deep strike but crisis couldn't (because you were inside a building/ship etc, zone Mortalis) hey that would make more sense.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Trevak Dal

[Marshal Rohr]

Not at work unfortunately

[Panzer]

 

I watched a YouTube video another frater posted of a normal 40k game played with Apocalypse rules. Went by super quick. If time is a constraint people should consider doing that. You can fit three or four games into a single Saturday.

Got a link sir?

The thing that gets me, is that GW took away universal special rules to bring back purple prose rules.

Tau battle suits have "manta deployment", space marine terminators have "teleportatium deployment". It's functionally deep strike, up to 9" away from enemy models wherever you want.

Now if they implemented it so that, well terminators could deep strike but crisis couldn't (because you were inside a building/ship etc, zone Mortalis) hey that would make more sense.

Yeah but on the other hand there are people who already lose their head over not even a handful different bodyguard type abilities, calling it a mess instead of accepting it as freedom of design.

[armarnis]

Amount of modells on the table increases every year because they fail to fix many things (might be too complex due to d6 based gamemechanics) and to iron that over reduce points.

A tac marine is only 1 point above a scout now. Thats the absolute bottom of the barrel.

 

Thats how it goes across the board. 2k points now feels like 2.5 or 3k index/7th edition

[Triszin]

I think, horde armies should have the movement trays included with the boxes. As a way to encourage their use.

[Slasher956]

Thats how it goes across the board. 2k points now feels like 2.5 or 3k index/7th edition

 

When I dusted off my witch hunters 2K (3rd/4th Ed) list for 8th Ed Index I had to add ~25 sisters and an exorcist..or a 25% increase in model count

[Brother Eleysium]

A few topics i have been eyeballing have complaints on just how slow 40k has become.

 

At the start of 8th, when all we had were the Indexes, i remember the joy of smashing a game in just over 2 hours!

With the added bloat that is inherent in advancing the game, i find it very hard to get to a 4th turn in 3 hours!

 

What are the biggest time sinks when playing 40k and does anyone have a ways to mitigate these delays?

 

Personally for the group I play with and I, we get bogged down goofing off or talking about non-sense. You'd be surprised how much time gets sunk by idly chatting here and there.

 

From a rules standpoint, the biggest issue I see is that people simply don't know the rules, or the rules for their own armies. Drives me bananas. Not saying there isn't a lot to remember especially with the new SM Dex and added Indexes, but like anything else, if you actually read them, you'll learn them. Another time sink(and not necessarily with our immediate group just something I've seen from hobbying for 20 years)is people arguing and disagreeing over the most trivial things, then spending 15 minutes looking things up. Like the BBB says, dice it off, move on... You can always go back later and look it up. It's not the end of the world. 

[MegaVolt87]

Universal special rules should have stayed for 8th, there seems to be a bit of overlap that could be consolidated. Way forward would be all base level codexes release at the same time, extra added later via things like Vigilus and the SM supplements. GW would then be able to properly scale the power creep and model counts then.

 

That's too long term for them though. GW likes the revenue spikes with the current way they do things than a slower revenue and growth strategy. A lot of publicly traded companies are like that.

 

TLDR- There is a better way for rules, but won't change because stonks.

[Ishagu]

They shouldn't consolidate it because this way they can rebalance individual factions.

 

It's the same principle with the Primaris units and their weapons. Notice how every single infantry unit has its own own gun variant? It means that if one variant is too weak or strong it can be adjusted without affecting the entire codex.

With the old Marines if you change one weapon it can literally impact multiple units in every every force org slot.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Ishagu

[kombatwombat]

USRs have their place. The game still has a USR - Fly. Beyond that, the community still uses Deep Strike and Feel No Pain USRs even though those names don’t exist in 8th Ed. They’re a really clean and effective way of communicating rules. If a unit needs to deviate from USRs, it can always be given an additional special rule that modifies how the USR works for it.

 

Having 6 different types of bolters in the Marine Codex is exactly the type of rules bloat that 7th Ed was criticised for. If you like it then fine, but don’t then try and criticise anything else for having bloated rules.

[Panzer]

Fly is no USR. It's a keyword that gets a special mention in the movement phase, that's it. It also gets used with other special rules like anti-air weapons and stuff.

[kombatwombat]

That special mention it gets is a special rule. In the vernacular of 7th Ed’s USRs:

 

‘Units with this special rule may move over other models in the Movement and Charge phases, and do not measure vertical distance when doing so.’

 

And other interacting rules:

 

‘This model adds 1 to hit rolls when targeting units with the Fly Universal Special Rule.’

 

Sure, it doesn’t have the words ‘special rule’ included in the text, but what manifest difference is there between Fly and a USR? They’re both a non-standard rule applied to multiple different units where it’s easier to just write it once in the rulebook rather than on each unit’s datasheet. If anything, it’s similar to 7th Ed’s Unit Types... which were ultimately just groupings of special rules.

Edited October 16, 2019 by kombatwombat