Elysian/Scion/Tallarn question. Does this work?

[STTAB]

Played a game recently in a tourney and going second was a big problem.

 

Looking at ways to hide my stuff if I’m playing an army that can cripple me T1 if I go second.

 

Elysian Valkyries can deep strike. You replace their Aeronautical Imperialis keyword with Elysian Drop Troops, which is a regiment and they gain the ability to deep strike.

 

I notice in the Forgeworld guard book FAQ that an a deep striking Valkyrie can do a grav chute disembark on the same turn the Valk deep strikes but the Valk counts as having moved over 20”

 

I play scions with the Vigilus drop force.

 

So If I take a Scion detachment I can get access to the warlord trait for the +1 to hit for units that disembark from a Valk (within 6 of bearer)... and I take a Elysian detachment with Valks and my Vulture I can put the scions in the Valks and if it looks like I won’t survive T1 shooting, I put them in reserve with the scions embarked so I can make use of the warlord trait when they disembark the Valk for some T2 plasma badness.

 

So far so good, the Valks don’t get access to the Vigilus strats but the ability to put them in reserves is a good trade off.

 

Now here is where I need a second pair of eyes...

 

I gotta bring along my Blood Angels detachment since Eldar Flyers and Iron Hands Flyers is something you will bump into. I really wanna bring my Leman Russes too...

 

It fine to run a mixed regiment guard detachment, you lose access to your regimental doctrines get your access to the different regiments stratagems and relics.

 

So I’m thinking about having a mixed guard detachment with Elysian Valks and Vultures and A Tallarn Tank Commander or two, make it a Vigilus tank company... so if you look like you are going second against something that will blow you off the table your Valks with Scions in then go to reserve, your Vulture goes to reserve and you pay CP to put your tank commander in reserve (if he can’t hide).

 

The mixed Elysian/Tallarn detachment seems fine. Kreig/Elysia don’t have doctrines so they don’t seem to lose anything if you add non Kreig/Elysian units in but the Tallarn unit would lose It’s regimental doctrine but have access to the reserve stratagem and Tallarn order.

 

Am I missing something?

Edited October 14, 2019 by STTAB

[Shamansky]

Well let's make collective decision on this.
Vigilus strat sais: '...Pick a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment from your army to be a Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment'

Vigilus FAQ states: 'A MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine'

Codex specially defines that '... MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from MILITARUM TEMPESTUS (in which case they will gain Storm Troopers doctrine)'

Basing on this three statements i think you can not use MTDF strat if your detachment includes ANY other units but Tempestus. Except Valkyries which are specially mentioned in stratagem. 
I don't really understand why ELYSIAN DROP TROOPS is not a regiment, because this is the key word that rplaces <REGIMENT> and AERONAUTICA IMPERIALIS in all units' sheets mentioned in the IA:Index list for Elysians. It replaces Aeronautica keyword and gives the Valkyrie Regimental abilities so i personally think it can't be used it MT detachment.

About second part. 

To be Elysian a Valkyrie must be taken as Elysian Drop Troops list entry. Which prevents you from taking Tank commanders as they are not metioned in the allowed for Elysians units list.

I may be wrong or not informed about recent changes, but looking at what i've got under my hand makes this one clear for me: you just can't use those two Vigilus strats with Elysian Valkyries.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Shamansky

[Galron]

There is a debate which has been going on since the codex dropped and I don't think GW has ever answered it. Can you bring non-Tempestus units in a Tempestus detachment? I lean towards the yes side since all when you get a unit it obtains the Regimental keyword of the detachment. In this case, you can have a Tempestus Leman Russ, it just gets no bonus abilities whatsoever from the Tempestus but because its keyword is Tempestus you still have a solid detachment for using the Drop Force formation. So then you could have your Drop Force, your Elysians, your blood angels, and some Leman Russes with no usable regimental doctrine.

 

You cannot however have a mixed Tallarn and Elysian detachment as the Elysian detachment list does not have Russes as available units nor does Tallarn have Elysian units available to it.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Galron

[STTAB]

I understand the Elysian Valkyries would have to be in a separate detachment as they exchange their Aeronautical Imperialis Keyword for Elysian Drop Troops and If you ran Elysian Valks in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment then you’d lose your Storm Trooper Doctrine since the Valks lose their Aeronautical Imperialis Keyword.

 

The Advisors and Auxilia rule works for Militarum Tempestus, so you can take Abhumans, Commisars, Aeronautical Imperialis etc without breaking doctrine. (Otherwise the Vigilus detachment would not work).

 

There is the list of approved Elysian units in Imperial Armour. It’s ok to run a mixed ASTRA MILITARUM detachment. Anything you run in that detachment that isn’t Elysian would lose its doctrine but the Elysians wouldn’t lose anything I think.

 

I reckon it’s fine to run a mixed ASTRA MILITARUM detachment, you’d just lose regimental doctrine.

[STTAB]

Sorry Galron, penned the above before seeing your reply.

 

The Vigilus MILITARUM TEMPESTUS detachment was the nail in the coffin of ignoring the Advisors and Auxilia rule for Scions since the detachment must be MILITARUM TEMPESTUS and has rules for Valkyries in that detachment. The reason it was never FAQ’d is because it’s pretty clear in the rule book. Scions don’t break other regimental doctrines but to get Storm Trooper doctrine all units in that detachment much be Militarum Tempestus (a regiment keyword). Next paragraph says that Advisors and Auxilia don’t break regimental doctrine.

 

Mixed detachments is a thing. You just need the common keyword that isn’t Imperium, Chaos or Aeldari. For example you could run a keyword ADEPTUS ASTARTES Superme command with Azrael, Mephiston and Draigo but you wouldn’t get their Chapter tactics. People run mixed detachments, giving up their chapter tactics equivalent so that they can get access to mixed special stratagems and relics.

 

You can run a keyword ASTRA MILITARUM detachment, you just lose regimental doctrine but it seems Kreig or Elysia have nothing to lose since they don’t have doctrines.

[Galron]

I don't think mixed detachments are a thing. Each detachment must be from the same codex(at least for matched play). You can have mixed armies with detachments from different codices however. A BA supreme command, a space wolf supreme command and a loyal 32 imperial guard detachment.

 

Each guard detachment must be from a specific regiment so you cant have Tallarn and  Mordian for example in the same detachment. Elysians and DKoK are their own codices with their own things that are allowed to be brought in the detachment. You can have a Tallarn detachment, a mordian detachment and an Elysian detachment. Elysians(and Death Korps) only get to have what is specifically stated to be allowed in their detachment, you cant put a Leman Russ in it just like you cannot put a drop sentinel in a Tallarn detachment, they are just not options. Its like putting a space marine squad in a Tallarn detachment, you cant do it. They are two different armies which share a few attributes like stratagems. 

 

Storm troopers are an odd one in that they only get their special tactic if they are in a storm trooper detachment, but like commissars they can be dropped into normal regiments without them losing their special tactics.

[librisrouge]

I'm almost 100% positive that you can have mixed regiments in detachments, they simply use the ASTRA MILITARUM keyword as their unifying keyword. Each unit would simply replace the keywords on their dataslate as needed. However, you'd lose the benefits of regimental doctrines if you did this.

[duz_]

I'm almost 100% positive that you can have mixed regiments in detachments, they simply use the ASTRA MILITARUM keyword as their unifying keyword. Each unit would simply replace the keywords on their dataslate as needed. However, you'd lose the benefits of regimental doctrines if you did this.

Yes this is true.

 

It also not really related to the initial question.

 

Which I believe has been answered unless there if further clarification required.

 

 

Meanwhile, any more discussion about mixed regiments can goto the OR.

[STTAB]

So I think I’ll bring in the Elysian flyers for my next ITC event. Next up is a modified ETC event that allows a 4th detachment if it’s a fortification.

 

So I’m taking a gamble. Dropping my underperforming Pokeball assassin (plus a little squeezing) for a Skyshield Landing pad. I’m borrowing one on the day but I reckon 3 flyers will fit (?) with 2 tank commanders. Everyone gets a 5++ and psychic barrier can take a tank commander or a consolidated infantry blob to a 4++.

 

I don’t think it’s a terrible idea... also if anyone has Valks/Vultures and a Skyshield Landing Pad kicking about and wants to test what will fit, it would be greatly appreciated.