Road to FA Cup - Hong Kong ITC - Nov 2019

[Morticon]

Greets all. 

So, for those that dont know, I usually do a "Road to..." series for my tournament lead ups.  I brainstorm lists, report on practice and playtest games and generally share the journey to the tournament, including the battlereports of the tournament itself.


There's an upcoming tournament in Hong Kong soon, and I've decided that I'll be taking a BA-styled/inspired, RavenGuard list. 

It plays very, very similarly to my BA, but with all the bells, tricks and whistles.  

Im SUPER excited to play it, because it just has so many cool tactical options. 

I'm looking at the following:

 

 

Phobos Cap (relic gun in some cases)

"Slaplain" build Chaplain (relic crozius, with Sword of Imp. and mantra) - JP

Chaplain - JP (WL - ambush and shadowstalker with +2 charge)

Librarian - bike, axe (usually tome) - Null Zone, Might of Heroes and no OW power. 

 

10x Intercessors - Autobolt Gun, Hammer (usually these guys get blinged with Vet if need be, and MC weapon if need be)

10x Intercessors - Stalkers

5x Scouts

5x Snipers

5x Snipers

5x Snipers

 

10x VanVets -5fists, 9 shields, JP

10x VanVets - 5fists, 8 shields, JP

 

Thunderfire Cannon

Thunderfire Cannon

 

Contemptor Mortis -las

Contemptor Mortis -las

************


The list is very burney on CP, with an upper limit of 6 being burned pre-game, and then an additional 2 at the start.  Minimum burn is 3 pre-game. 

It's hyper aggressive, and I honestly think can give the IH lists a hard time (albeit requiring first for that to happen)


 

[Dracos]

I'd like to hear your plan for going second and what you're going to do to max out the secondaries? Does the TO have a package listing terrain set ups?

[Morticon]

I'd like to hear your plan for going second and what you're going to do to max out the secondaries? Does the TO have a package listing terrain set ups?

 

Set ups arent pre-determined like nova, and there seems to be some good amount of terrain.  Going second will see me deploy the jumpers into reserve, and try hit key elements with the Tfires and Dreads, and possibly the stalkers- im likely to play quite conservatively in the event of going second, with secondaries likely to be Old School  - something ive found more reliable than butchers) and one other based on the enemy. 

[Brom MKIV]

Morti I dig your list! Definitely see the blood roots. Snipers over elims seems an efficiency choice as troops and I really like your character loadout. If taking tome you may consider shadowstep. That in conjunction with oppressors end as a pre game choice (if tournament allows this type of pre game selection) is very blood angels esque similar to wings.. Will keep you opponent on the back foot.

 

Good luck!

[Morticon]

Morti I dig your list! Definitely see the blood roots. Snipers over elims seems an efficiency choice as troops and I really like your character loadout. If taking tome you may consider shadowstep. That in conjunction with oppressors end as a pre game choice (if tournament allows this type of pre game selection) is very blood angels esque similar to wings.. Will keep you opponent on the back foot.

 

Good luck!

 

Shadow Step + Ex Tenebris is a really nice alternative to the might/null/Darkness combo! (I'm assuming you meant Ex Tenebris?)

 

Thanks for the suggestion, would defs take it some games! 

[Morticon]

I forgot to mention, I'll be using successor rules - Artisans and Whirlwind. 

[Brom MKIV]

That's exactly what I meant brother. One of my favs. Or well I mean pre game choice of ex tenebris or oppressors end.

For example if facing hard characters you may need to assault then choose OE and shadowstep him. If against say.. Opposing elims then consider ex tenebris for anti sniper duty. If that makes sense.

 

Edit-and that's my favorite CT!

Edited October 17, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Morticon]

Oooh!! Interesting- so you basically give him some utility in combat too !!! I see, I see!!! Nice touch!!!  Thanks again

[N1SB]

Brother, you're getting great intel on the "Know Yourself" part, so let me fill you in on the "Know Thy Enemy, Know the Heavens, Know the Earth" part with intel on FA.

 

 

+++ FA is FAmous here +++

 

 

To everyone here, "FA" or "Fun Atelier" is a legendary FLGS in Hong Kong.  When Games Workshop pulled its official shops out of the city during the mid-2000s, the store manager, refusing to let his loyal redshirts become unemployed, gambled huge to keep things running by becoming a FLGS focused on Warhammer.  That dedication lead to a zealous (perhaps too much so) player-base.  Example - in holding tournaments in the past with coupon prizes, the winners would spend those coupons on terrain, which they'd assemble, paint...then donate BACK to FA, so it accumulated an INSANE amount of terrain.  They moved, so don't know if they threw out much of it, but expect a pretty terrain-heavy layout.

 

It's also a pretty WAAC tourney scene, lots of players following Netlists.  People do go for Flavour-of-the-Month.

 

 

+++ And This Month's Special...Like You Guessed...Seems To Be Iron Hands +++

 

 

And as you already anticipated, the current Flavour-of-the-Month is iron flavour, Iron Hands.  I have heard-tell that last week or the week before every gaming table at FA had at least 1 Iron Hands army.  Not sure what that means, but obviously the 2 options are:

 

1. they plan on playing Iron Hands in the tourney

2. they're learning how to COUNTER Iron Hands in the tourney

 

The rest you'll see some pretty typical Netlist things, so if you know how to handle that, then great.  FA is pretty lax on the painting aspect, so please be mentally prepared to see Space Wolves counts-as Iron Hands.

 

 

+++ Your Toughest Opponent(s) IMHO +++

 

 

There is ONE player you got to watch out for, whom I call and have referred to in the past as "Tourney Tony".

 

Tourney Tony is a great guy, a former medical professional now turned educator, because he wants to help common people.  His world view is that the world belongs to the common people, and it is reflected in his list-building: he takes Mass Troops.  He was an Ork player, Mass Boyz horde with Kustom Force Fields.  He is also known as an Ultramarine player, he took Tacticals en-Masse, the Blue Tide.  Even before the new Codex, he ran Mass Intercessor Iron Hands.  So you might see a horde of Iron Hands, but realise he'll play them as if they were Ork Boyz.

 

He would compliment this with a few dedicated melee HQs, with his go-to strategy being to tarpit you by sheer number of Wounds and let his HQs clobber you.  His default, for most armies, is some HQ with Power Fist/Thunder Hammers on Bikes.  He WANTS you to immediately charge into him, it means it's easier for him to bog you down.  He'll be trying to hide them behind whatever, if you can negate those HQs, you're in good shape.  He's pretty good at deployment and counter-deployment, one of his main armies in 8th is Genestealer Cult.

 

If you want to be good friends with him, ask him about his Genestealer Cult story he wrote for his army (was a pre-req in a previous tournament).

 

 

+++ Further Mental Preparation +++

 

 

Because reasons, FA had moved a few years ago into an industrial district, it's like an industrial building there, large cargo lifts, it like owns a whole office floor by itself.  It might be a bit jarring, but it's just to save on rent.  They actually started doing their own resin kits there, it's a really cool store, like they got this Chimera conversion kit that gives them wheels, etc.

 

I don't go their often now as it's a little out of the way for me.  Also, you're used to Beijing, which is even more complex, but as crowded as Beijing can get I feel it's even worse in Hong Kong.  Because of its location it IS a little tricky to go into, Hong Kong streets are a mess unlike how everything in Beijing is grid-like.  They do have a bathroom on premises.

 

When you head back, just realise airport security might check your phone for photos knowing you came back from Hong Kong.  They only care about the protests, it's nothing personal and they're just doing it because some politburo guy told them to, but if you see a bunch of dudes running around the streets all in black wearing masks, don't take pics of them.

 

I say all this because a lot of other players go thrown off by the initial shock of FA, like you're expecting a quaint shop and suddenly a forklift whizzes by you.  As long as you know, you're fine.  Good hunting, Brother!

[Morticon]

That's amazing Thanks for the heads up. Really good advice actually.

I actually met three of the FA players at the ECO (East China Open) - and got to play the manager who is, I believe, one of the top players there. Lost narrowly 18-20 against his muscle beach netlist, (should have gone 19-19 but rushed it to call early and forgot to move on to an objective).  

 

Also saw the ork list you're referring to!! (I think). 

All very valuable stuff!!! Thanks for sharing. 

And I FULLY expect to see Iron Hands.....and cannot wait.  

Edited October 17, 2019 by Morticon

[Morticon]

So, I've submitted the list with some minor changes after some playtesting. 

This is what I have gone with:

Whirlwind of Rage / Artisans Successors.

 

Captain - JP, Hammer, Shield - Warlord  (Needed the reliability here, and the sturdiness of the Dam4 Hammer)

Phobos Cap (relic gun in some cases)

Chaplain - Powerfist (I loved the "slaplain" build, but I need the reroll focus - powerfist is just another nice little addition. )

Librarian - bike, axe (usually tome) - Null Zone, Might of Heroes and no OW power. 

 

9x Intercessors - Autobolt Gun, Aux Grnd., Fist. (The hammer was a luxury I couldnt afford)

10x Intercessors - Stalkers, Aux Grnd.

5x Scouts

5x Scouts

5x Snipers

5x Snipers

 

10x VanVets -5fists, 8 shields, JP

9x VanVets - 5fists, 8 shields, JP

 

Thunderfire Cannon

Eliminators  (The Tfire may have been preferred, but i think Elims + RG abilities are sick). 

 

Contemptor Mortis -las

Contemptor Mortis -las


 

[Morticon]

So, it's a tournament win for the Raven Guard 

 

Opponents: 

 

1: Ad Mech (25-24)

2: Chaos Knights (25-20)

3: Khorne Demons/Marines (31-9)
4: Alaitoc Eldar (31-16)
5: (Final) Necrons (31-20)

Some tough games, and a nice broad field - the tournament had about 33% marine players, and only 1 in the top 3, but 5 in the top 10.  

Feel free to ask any questions! 

[Dracos]

Congrats Morticon

 

I'm curious how you feel about the Eliminators. Add more to list? Less? Or just on nose?

 

If you were to add more where would you strip points from?

 

 

Though considering those wins I'd say you had a great tourney. Kind of surprised you didn't run into another Marine player.

[Morticon]

Congrats Morticon

 

I'm curious how you feel about the Eliminators. Add more to list? Less? Or just on nose?

 

If you were to add more where would you strip points from?

 

 

Though considering those wins I'd say you had a great tourney. Kind of surprised you didn't run into another Marine player.

 

Just typed out a long response that got lost in the warp. 

 

Elims are GREAT :  Two + Phobos Cap = MAGIC!  I'd lose 4 intercessors for it - BUT, the chunky squads of Inters were game winners- especially deploying them into reserve. 

 

MVP were the dreads - lost 3 the whole tourney. 

Chappy fist was good - Litany of Str is a trap. Good in theory, but always used RR hits. 

 

 

[Morticon]

Whirlwind of Rage was also an AMAZING secondary tactic for my list.  Loved playing it.  Master Artisans is broken and needs fixing <_< Feels dirty.

[SkimaskMohawk]

What warlord trait did you use for the smash captain? How did the vanguard perform/what roll did you mainly use them for?

[duz_]

Nice work! :tu:

 

We're you able to nuke some character IKs with our super Doctrine?

[Brom MKIV]

Whirlwind of Rage was also an AMAZING secondary tactic for my list.  Loved playing it.  Master Artisans is broken and needs fixing Feels dirty.

Haha yes I've been told as much. Its actually caused me to reduce my elims to 2 units. I don't typically try for broken or 3 offs which I consider to be entering full competitive territory meaning I warn my opponent.. but I didn't expect the combo to be quite so effective.

 

What I'm curious about is how those power fists did in your VVs.. did you find you regretted not taking 3-4 hammers instead?

[Morticon]

What warlord trait did you use for the smash captain? How did the vanguard perform/what roll did you mainly use them for?

 

 

WL almost always used Shadowstalker.  Used Champion of Humanity vs Knights, also Spear of Imperium.  

I used Master of Ambush on the Chaplain in almost games I believe. 

The Vanguard are essentially my core units. As most of you know, I'm an avid BA guy - and I'm playing RG because it allows me to play my BA assault force competitively in a way that I want to play the game.  Paired with Whirlwind of Rage they were AMAZING.  

 

They took a LOT of heat, though - but I almost always used Transhuman on them.  With THP and Shields, they become crazy hardy.  While I think aggressors and/or assault Centurions are devastating, and I do see their gimmick, I love the flexibility that the Shield Vets offer.  Paired with WWoR and the Chaplain nearby, they do some serious heavy lifting.  They also solve the Flier issue really well. 

 

Vs. the Crons in the last game, they took the brunt of all the firepower, and their shields and transhuman protected my Captain. The remnants then helped kill a Flier and the second squad then helped take out a Barge - d3 damage means that the Quantum shielding isn't that effective.  

 

I cannot recommend this unit more strongly for RG players. (Marines as a whole, tbh). 

 

Nice work!

 

We're you able to nuke some character IKs with our super Doctrine?

So many.  So, so many.   The Knights especially.  By his turn 2, it was looking really bleak for me.  I did sacrifice my Captain turn one to kill his warlord (a fair tradeoff I think) but then by his turn 2 he was in my lines, with 3 knights.  Thanks to the doctrine, i was able to take out 2 of them. 

 

Was useless in the final game and the only game I didnt move from Dev - Tac doc.  

 

Korvidari Bolts were on the Phobos Cap (with Hunter) in game 1, taking out TechPriests at a time.  Game 3 vs Khorne they also went down cheaply.  

 

It was amazing man.  This Dex is phenomenal - you guys must be super, super, super happy.  

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sounds good; I've been wanting to make a flexible unit of VV for a while and these seem like a great, cheap unit.

 

You must be excited at the previewed BA changes, though raven guard do have a lot of maneuverability that lets you excel as a melee force.

[Dracos]

I shudder to think how nasty The Three Other Guys are going to be when they get rebooted. If they did this to Iron Hands the Angels and Wolves are going to be ugly.

[Morticon]

Sounds good; I've been wanting to make a flexible unit of VV for a while and these seem like a great, cheap unit.

 

You must be excited at the previewed BA changes, though raven guard do have a lot of maneuverability that lets you excel as a melee force.

 

I'm VERY excited about the BA changes- because theyre going to play similarly.  Unfortunately for the BA, if they dont get similar movement options, RG will be superior as a tactically flexible force.  I went second 4 games of 5 in the tournament and RG allows me to mitigate that disadvantage.  BA have FAR fewer options in that regard. 

 

I believe it's RGs greatest strength in all honesty. 

[SyNidus]

That's fantastic. Congrats Morti and thanks for the report. This definitely has me excited to get my RG up and running ASAP. If there was anything in your list you had to take out, what would it be? And what would you replace it with?

[Morticon]

That's fantastic. Congrats Morti and thanks for the report. This definitely has me excited to get my RG up and running ASAP. If there was anything in your list you had to take out, what would it be? And what would you replace it with?

This is genuinely a tough, tough question to answer because, quite honestly, and as is my style, it's a synergy list.  My style has always been "less-than-optimized TAC" lists.  I will hardly ever steamroll an opponent with a gimmick or ultra unit, but rather, try overcome them with a combination of the entire force where every unit adds a little. 

I've hated the idea that neutralizing one unit or one combo kills my list, as have I hated being paired up against any one list and thiinking "I cant win this on paper".  

 

Because of that, and because of that combination, I literally would struggle to take anything out without a complete redesign (which is possible, given the amazing options available to the awesome RG!!). 

 

 

 

I will however give a very brief unit summary:

 

1:  The sniper scouts.

 

Because of the tournament rules, we rolled for set up each game.  I played 2 vanguard strike games, 1 quarter game and 2 hammer/anvil style games - basically ALL the maps that place you furthest distance from your enemy.  Had I had a long board edge map, they would have done better.  

 

HOWEVER, their ability to place out of deployment did mitigate this, but their intended roll was backfield camping, not midfield support/annoyance.  

 

2: Scouts

 

Did precious little other than camp and claim and provide targets - but, that won games.   I wish they were incursors, but for their points, they're amazing. They did little to no damage, but as said - helped win games.  

 

3: Intercessors - Autobolts 

 

I reserved my intercessors in at least half my games.  The ability to bring 27 autobolt shots to bare on turn 2 (with 1AP) is fantastic.  Their ability to fight with rerolls, whirlwind and a fist made them solid too. 

 

The stalkers didnt once get off the surprise combo, and where I tried it against the Eldar, got 2 wounds done in total.  But, their ability to come in late game and put down AP2/3 D2 shots was invaluable too. 

 

I REALLY like this mix.  For RG i think a squad of 10 of these is a must. 

 

 

4. The Phobos Captain.

 

He was very good.  Not BRILLIANT, but very good.  I think he's a SOLID choice for RG, but he does burn one or two CP from your arsenal. I would *consider* changing him out for another chaplain, but I have to admit that he killed characters every game.

 

5:  Chaplain

 

Perfect support unit, much needed.  I'm thinking I may use him as WL in future with Ambush and Swift.  Forgot to use his fist a lot, but when I did, it made a difference. 

 

6: Smash Cap

 

Tried and tested.  This is the BA style guy that everyone knows and despises. There were PLENTY times where I wanted Armour of Shadows, but Tenebris or MC Hammer was a better choice.  

 

7:  Librarian on Bike

 

Used Malcador every game- but only in range of Nullzone once.   Realised that as nice as SM powers are, RG powers are auto-includes. 

The bike was nice, but didnt see a game changing difference made.   He wont be a huge loss if/when we lose Index stuff.

 

 

8:  Vanguard 

 

Brilliant.  Brilliant, brilliant.  Cannot speak more highly of them. 231 points for 5 fists, 8 shields.  What's not to like.  

9: Contemptor Dreads

 

My workhorses- MVPs of the tourney.   They never singlehandedly won me games but were able to put out high pressure damage the entire tournament.  WIth the amount of pressure coming the way of the enemy, they chose to focus on the vanguard and other units instead. 

 

10:  Tfire

 

Does what it says on the box.  Never used the strats - RG are starved for CP.  But they provided amazing support.  Played them with 3d3 shots first two games :( 

 

11: Eliminators 

 

Solid.  Reliable.  Harrassing units that helped pick off characters.  

[SyNidus]

Excellent rundown. It's great to get an insight into why you made the choices you did in terms of your list, and how they played out. I see the synergy you're talking about and that helps me re-look at my own list through the lens of your army's performance.

 

I think strategically, you had the strong forward elements pressuring the opponent into their deployment zone, while backing that up with a capable long range ground force that punished the opponent the longer they stayed in the game. Very nice.

 

EDIT: Small shameless plug, please check out my latest list in my Plog thread, here. I've built an army with a similar strategy in mind, though I must admit, i've got much less long range firepower and have instead opted to be a bit more aggressive. I'd love to hear your thoughts, based on your own experiences as i've not had the chance to test out the list yet.

Edited November 28, 2019 by SyNidus