Some Ultramarine general musings and tactic talk

[Prot]

So I thought I'd just put some discussion out based on my last 10 or so game. 

 

I am hoping this will spark some conversation on conventional thinking vs. applying a special case scenario to specific units, and tactics.

 

I'm sure I'll make some statements that make you think I'm crazy, but that's part of the fun, but keep in mind I promise that the musings I have are based on gameplay. Typically I think my Meta is very tough. It's typically drone Tau/ Riptide Tau, or Cyclonic suit Tau, Eldar Airshow, GSC Muscle beach or Acolyte Horde, Astra, Dark Eldar, and Ork horde, or super shooty.. I think those are the toughest regulars I play against.

 

 Pre-amble... or back peddling:

 

First off as I write this, I have definitely started to experience a different push back from opponents. I have to modify my original thought on how strong I thought we'd be. I originally though Ultramarines would be extremely potent, but already I see better targeting choices by opponents and a greater need of my own lists to... 'trim the fat'. Anti- marine armies are still anti marine, and as offensive as we became over night, the proper anti-marine application (I'm not talking about 'list tailoring', I'm talking about smart players.) It's all making a difference and caused me to pull back my original expectations a bit. I guess truth be told, playing Ultra's for so long, I've just been used to taking a beating from the top meta players.

 

Psyker experiences from the warp:

 

I have always, always used Tigurius. He's never been bad, but now he's just really good for his points but if we are talking purely about the psychic powers, the Ultramarine ones I find harder and harder to put to good application. What are you guys finding? I am personally starting to default back to the old staples.

 

Unit specific experiences:

 

So this is a bit of a strange one, and one thing that is annoying me overall is I find a lot of unit synergies I find seem usually better with Iron Hands, but I want to keep them out of this conversation:

 

- Infiltrators. I  still can't take these out of the list. GSC is so incredibly annoying, it's game breakingly different if I pull these guys. Plus against Orks I like pushing Da Jump back. Or whatever shenanigans my opponents try... I can't seem to get away from one squad of these.

 

- Aggressors. Are these the Ultramarines best unit? I'm starting to this so. I find that honestly I could probably pull back a bit on pure Intercessor troops because these guys do so much heavy lifting. I have games where other units just don't perform and these guys can save the day. Are they the staple unit of Ultra's?

 

- TFC. I hate blowing an average of 8 CP's a game on this thing, but most of my Ultra lists just can't really threaten a back gun line. This thing is great for drones, mortars, etc. I can't seem to pull it even though it's probably not my best unit. (QUESTION: Is it hitting on BS2?)

 

- Invictus Warsuits. Darn I thought these were the cat's meow at first. I don't think they are in any way 'poor choices' but they are easy to use wrong, and giving your opponent those softer kills on such a shooty platform really hurts your bottom line. I think I can clearly go without these if necessary, but I bet sneaker marines feel they're a must. 

 

- Grav Cents. I'm less and less attached to these. I have had too many games where they just outright do squat. Aggressors again, are a bit better. I still almost think the Lascannon variant helps my army more. Keep in mind at 24" grav, you really have to manipulate this squad correctly.

 

- Eliminators. I don't get it. Used them several times. I get nothing out of this squad. Almost zilch return on investment in nearly every game I play them. I feel like I'm not getting something here. 

 

- Repulsors/Executioner. Yup, probably a great IH unit, but still I keep coming back to these guys to stop my Aggressors from appearing too slow, and too vulnerable to firepower.  A fantastic overwatch unit ... especially for Supporting Fire Strat.

 

I have some more things I wanted to bring up but I gotta run. Let me know what you guys think!

 

 

 

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[mel_danes]

Eliminators - As a sniper unit I concur.

I've not built a set for anti tank. With 3 shots they are just not killing what they need to as snipers.

 

Aggressors - My opponent knows that these boys throw out the pain, that are an immediate target priority and die hard every game I use them. I tend to walk them, which of couse exposes them to fire.

 

Repulsor - So large it hard to hide, gets targeted and toast.

 

I find boots on the ground is my best play. This is used in a Primaris only army, so your MMV when mixed with Legacy Astartes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Honestly I prefer my five Terminator squad over Aggressors. Don’t get me wrong Aggressors are great but I feel they do more work for other Chapters plus my list has Bolter Fire in spades,

 

One TFC is more than enough.

 

Mel I also run a pure infantry list and it works so well. That said my next iteration will be featuring Impulsors... they has magically slipped under the nerf scope.

[Aothaine]

I just realized that Ultramarines can move and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty while in tactical doctrine. Holy hell. They might actually be better than IH imho. I really think the biggest advantage that IH have over the Ultras right now is the 6+++ save. Ultras can put out so much more firepower is it silly. Sure, have all the 5++ and 6+++ saves you want. You're dreadnought is still going to die to 120+ bolter shots with -1ap. Anyway...

 

Another unit I think the Ultramarine players might be missing out on is the Scouts in Land Speeder Storms. Having like two of these units for point capturing is going to be super good I think. Deck them out with sniper rifles and a missile launcher or combi-melta and multi-melta and just race around causing problems for enemy vehicles turn 2 and on. They are a threat but you're going to have so much more on the table that people will want to focus that I think they will still be around mid game. Also, unless I'm reading it wrong, you can move and shoot the multi-melta T2 without any - to hit modifiers. 

 

I need to rethink this. It might be better to go with the boys in blue. They are less likely to be nerfed as they are the poster boys of GW and usually have all the toys first.

 

Edit: Flame Aggressors might do some serious work for Ultramarines as well since they get to double tap as long as they didn't fall back or advance.

 

I wonder... can you still do the mixed formations?

 

O = Flame Aggressor

X = Bolter Aggressor

G = Big Daddy G

A = Apothecary

 

X O X O X

O X O X O

 

or

 X  A  G  A  O X

O X O X  O X O

 

As long as you don't advance them, and you wouldn't with Ultramarines. You can move this formation up. Anyone assaulting it needs to declare assaulting both units so you will get to overwatch with both units. Pretty sure anything that survives the double-tap from bolter aggressors and flamer aggressors deserves to be in assault with them. But it could be an excellent fire base that walks up the mid field supported by cpt/guillman & 2 apothecaries.  Is this formation still valid? 

[Ishagu]

Fantastic topic, and some great discussion. My own experiences mirror many of Prot's.

On the topic of Back Peddling:

I never thought that the Ultras will be much, much stronger than before. Guilliman was substantially nerfed, he's not really an optimium choice in the army now but I've made my peace with that. To clarify, this army is definitely better than it was before - I love the stratagems, and they have actually pushed me to build more thematic looking lists. I now have plenty of Intercessors and infantry in the list. Nothing in the codex is useful as some of the abilities that are found in the Raven Guard or White Scars books. We don't have a way to just teleport Grav Centurions right next to an opponent's army, we can't assault on turn 1, we can't outflank a Repulsor, etc etc.

Psyker Experience:

Tigurius is a great Psyker, and he's actually decent in combat if you need it in a pinch. I think the Ultramarines psychic powers are woefully disappointing however. He's so good at casting, but he's stuck with casting powers from two of the worst disciplins in the game. Yes, there is some trixy play with a Repulsor and a 30" null zone.

Unit Specific Experience:

Infiltrators - 2 Squads in every list, just don't deploy them forward when playing against Raven Guard if you don't have 1st turn.

Agressors - really good, I use 5 with flamers. I don't feel they are my best unit but maybe that's because I use the flamers instead of bolters?

Centurions - Can have a great output but not ideal with Ultras. These guys are much, much better with Raven Guard who can deploy them anywhere and with Iron Hands who can make them invulnerable.

Eliminators - I've used a squad of 3, maybe I'll have more joy with multiple units. Better with IH and RG but they can be hard to kill for an opponent.

Repulsors - I take two in every list, one as a transport the other focusing on firepower. Great results with these, I rate them highly.

Intercessors - Great, love these guys.

 

There are many more I want to talk about but I don't want to spend hours typing out my experience lol

Overall I feel the Ultras are a bit too safe. The core rules are good, the army is flexible but more than ever we see how that lack of specialisation is starting to hurt them. Raven Guard are just as afficient in shooting now, but they can assault you on turn 1, teleport Aggressors and Centurions into battle and pressure you from the start.
Iron Hands, even with the nerfs, are better in shooting and much more resilient. In effect they play similar to Ultras but they do it better. Like us, they don't have deployment shennanigans but they have various powerful combos that put them ahead. For example you can take units like Centurions and make them near invulnerable by stacking an invul, and improved armour save and FNP on top of no movement penalties from the start of the game, combined with better AP for their weapons as they remain in the DEV doctrine.

It's nice that we can leave combat and count as being stationary whilst in the Tactical doctrine - these are truy good abilities, but we didn't get spicy strats or psychic powers like some othe other chapters.

[Lemondish]

Regarding the Psychic Discipline, I find Scryer’s Gaze is a huge win here, and something I wish I had access to. In fact, one of the biggest things I like about Ultramarines is the sheer volume of CPs you can acquire either through tricks like this or just from their characters. The rest of this discipline is somewhat mediocre. With that in mind, have folks considered buying the Tome of Malcador to take one power from there and picking Scryer’s Gaze, as the CP cost would quickly pay for the extra relic cost?

 

On paper, I'm a huge fan of the Seal of Oath for taking out a large target. Anybody have any experience with that? I don't intend to play Ultras (my old Blood Ravens I used to steal from play as the ol' ivory toilet seats are being repurposed, you see), but I like hearing about different experiences from the other stalwart Codex faithful. 

 

Also real jealous about Cassius. Any experiences running that guy? 

[Ishagu]

Yeah I've used Cassius. He is useful, the model really needs an update!

 

I take the +1 to hit and +1 to wound for the closest target abilities, but one of them (sometimes both) always fail! lol

 

Scryer's Gaze is the only good ability in the Ultramarine discipline, and if Tiggy takes it you can't also chose Null Zone or Might of Heroes, unfortunately...

[Cruor Vault]

Chronus in a Stalker is going to be a staple of UM lists for the coming months in the coming era of Iron Hands aircraft.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Do you think IH Air Force is still a thing following the faq?

[Kallas]

Do you think IH Air Force is still a thing following the faq?

 

It, backed up by a Leviathan, is still going to be extremely powerful.

[Ishagu]

Do you think IH Air Force is still a thing following the faq?

Yeah definitely. The Air Force us still the best, although it's slightly more vulnerable if they don't go 1st.

 

The invincible Leviathan is unchanged, as are their combos with super tough Centurions, etc

[Prot]

Do you think IH Air Force is still a thing following the faq?

 

Why not? I think even if not, with the coming Psychic Awakening, GW has somehow given more to the Eldar Airshow by buffing the shooting.

 

I think it's great to keep anti Air in mind, but yea, it got nerfed a little bit.

 

BTW: Why can't you take Null zone if you take Scryer's Gaze?

 

Also... Is Scryer's Gaze a single model from a unit? Or something else? It just says "when making an attack by a model from a friendly ULtramarines unit... within 18"

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can take Tome of Malcador to get Null Zone and Scryer’s Gaze but I’d rather just take Tiggy.

 

With the new IF supplement dropping soon I really wonder if the IF Air Force can survive past the first two turns and relying on going first is not a good bet in a tournament environment.

[Seahawk]

I haven't played any games yet, due to life and infant and all that, but this week I'll be shaking off the rust in preparation for some upcoming events. 

 

I may also be taking notes from this thread, then dumping my own on it after I start playing!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Glad to have you back again.

[Starskysdad]

I am currently using Tigerius for Scryers, Empyric channelling and Psychic shackles I then have another librarian to sort out null zone and MoH with +2 to the dice roll - this enables me to beef up the aggressors or executioner - also his prescience is just sweet.

 

Not mentioned above so far - I am taking a Deredeo in most of my generic lists in order for the 5+ Invun - really handy plus he is a boss at taking out Air targets after turn 1 with the shoot as stationery.

[Cruor Vault]

I am currently using Tigerius for Scryers, Empyric channelling and Psychic shackles I then have another librarian to sort out null zone and MoH with +2 to the dice roll - this enables me to beef up the aggressors or executioner - also his prescience is just sweet.

 

Not mentioned above so far - I am taking a Deredeo in most of my generic lists in order for the 5+ Invun - really handy plus he is a boss at taking out Air targets after turn 1 with the shoot as stationery.

 

Heads up.  You're almost certainly playing the Deredo wrong in both instances.

 

1.) The Pavaise was FAQ'ed to require units to be WHOLLY within 6", requiring units to be clustered around it very closely.

 

2.) Scions of Guilliman doesn't interact the way you think it does with the Helical Targeting Array.  The Targeting Array rule prevents the Dreadnought from moving if you activate it, whereas Scions of Guilliman makes the unit count as stationary for shooting purposes.  IE: They don't actually interact with each other.

[Starskysdad]

I am playing as intended - yes I have a castle of key units for 5+ within 6" - been very successful so far including going 3-0 at a local tournament recently

 

Yes its a cramped castle for Marneus, Tiggy, cassius and executioner but you can do it!  

[jonjacob]

Been watching some of the D6evolution video regarding assault in competitive play.
I was musing the idea the i want to use nobility made manifest, defensive focus and first strike for ultramar, the idea was to present a tough choice in the charge phase.

 

What units would work? I like vanguard vet for the first strike and heroic intervention, but its the overwatch fire power that i want to be so daunting they they would dare make the assault move.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you setup your army correctly then even Intercessors are good and efficient as well. I played a Genestealer shock army a few weeks ago using my DevCents as bait with an Infiltrator squad on either side to wall off the rest of my army. The opponent took the bait and I near tabled him the second turn.

[StrummersGhost]

I don't post often at all, more of a lurker who takes notes from others haha. However thought I'd chip in with some of my experiences with some of the units mentioned.

 

For a number of my games when the new codex came out, I was using eliminators and not getting the points worth. But continued to use them for their potential, and finally last night they performed well for me. Out of 6 turns, they hit and wounded 6 times. I killed 2 exalted sorcerers and took wounds off a couple demon prince's. All using mortis rounds and utilising the sergeants guided aim ability. More than made their points back and were an MVP unit for me, I was playing an ITC game and they were instrumental in earning me VPs. Could be a one off of course but it's encouraged me to keep them in the list. I'd love to have a unit of 5.

 

Infiltrators, when these first appeared I vowed they were too expensive but now I consistently have 2 units with the comms array in my lists. (it should be pointed out that my regular opponents play Orks and 1k Sons/Daemons so very handy for limiting the use of Da Jump etc). They're great.

 

Now this sounds like madness but in my last 2 games I've run 2 Vindicators and played them quite aggressively making use of moving without penalty from turn 2 and they've performed well. The D6 damage has really improved them I think. It's been good to blow the dust off them and have them back on the table.

[Ishagu]

I actually agree on the Vindicators, they are much better than before.

[Joukernaut]

Agreed on the vindicators, I got shot to bits by two the purge vindicators the other week. Ours must be better since we can move without penalty from turn two onwards. They are tough as nails and pretty cheap as well. I think taking two with a CP reroll gives a decent chance to get enough shots. And if you happen to spike the rolls you're laughing.

[Captain Idaho]

That's reassuring to hear as they've always been my favourite tank. 2 in an army is affordable and can really turn the screw on single model targets.

[Ishagu]

They can be a bit risky against cc focused armies as the gun range is still only 24", but against general opponents they are tough and can deal good damage. Also with Ultras you can disengage from combat which is an extra bonus against armies that might try to tie you up.