Aspect warrior updates?

[TorvaldTheMild]

I like how the Howling Banshees are just plastic versions as they have pretty much stayed true to the design as they nailed the previous ones, same with the striking scorpions and fire dragons all though they could tweek them, make the scorpions look a little more beefier as the same with all heavy aspect armour.  Warp Spiders look good but definitely need an update and the death spinners need to look better.  However I think that dark reapers and swooping hawks need a re-imagining, the models look pretty bad and look quite goofy.  I think they should retain a lot of their aspects but they need to have a bit more imagination with those updates.  What does everyone else think about the new and old sculpts and how they should be updated?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm really not a fan of the current Dark Reapers, and the Swooping Hawks are ok in theory, they just need more dynamic poses than "ballerina toe-pointing". Only thing I might also say is angle the face mask a bit more so as to differentiate more from the Sisters of Silence masks.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I don't like the whole beak look, I think they look a bit ridiculous.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, they are meant to look like hawks. I don't doubt it could be done more gracefully, and keep the half-helm style grills to the Sisters of Silence.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Sure but the look they have now is goofy, they could still keep a beak look, but as they are now they look terrible.  Love the idea of the half helm, it'd make them unique as well as all the aspects have full helmets.

[Lord_Caerolion]

But that's already used by the Sisters of Silence. That's like saying "Custodes have conical helmets, so they should just use Guardian heads". The whole point of the Aspects is that they're meant to be fully-enclosed helmets that allow the wearer to give up their own identity when it's worn, ritualistically becoming an Aspect of Khaela Mensha Khaine.

[TorvaldTheMild]

The war mask isn't their actual helmet, its got nothing to do with their armour its a metaphor for the balance they have between their anger etc. and their normal life.  Also many exarchs go helmetless.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, Exarchs go helmetless, because they have lost the differentiation from themselves and their Aspect. I also know that the war mask is not a physical thing, but the war mask and their Aspect role are two different things. A war mask is a psychological construct used by all Eldar to differentiate their normal selves from their Guardian role, to help compartmentalize their behaviours, and make it easier to return to peace-time. 

Aspect Warriors don't just utilize that, they also wear ritual masks which they use to differentiate themselves further, becoming the Aspect. It's a religious component, not just psychological. With the Exarchs, when they fall from the Path they lose that distinction between themselves and their Aspect. Some fluff mentions that it occurs when an Eldar loses the distinction between themselves and just the war mask, but if that were the case we would see Guardian Exarchs, but that's not the case, they're exclusive to the Aspect Warriors, and the link to the Aspect is intrinsic in their version of the war mask. 

 

There's also the Jes Goodwin sketches, in which he actually states this, from memory. I'll try to see what I can find from them when I get home from work.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Yes, Exarchs go helmetless, because they have lost the differentiation from themselves and their Aspect. I also know that the war mask is not a physical thing, but the war mask and their Aspect role are two different things. A war mask is a psychological construct used by all Eldar to differentiate their normal selves from their Guardian role, to help compartmentalize their behaviours, and make it easier to return to peace-time. 

Aspect Warriors don't just utilize that, they also wear ritual masks which they use to differentiate themselves further, becoming the Aspect. It's a religious component, not just psychological. With the Exarchs, when they fall from the Path they lose that distinction between themselves and their Aspect. Some fluff mentions that it occurs when an Eldar loses the distinction between themselves and just the war mask, but if that were the case we would see Guardian Exarchs, but that's not the case, they're exclusive to the Aspect Warriors, and the link to the Aspect is intrinsic in their version of the war mask. 

 

There's also the Jes Goodwin sketches, in which he actually states this, from memory. I'll try to see what I can find from them when I get home from work.

No exarchs go un-helmeted simply because they chose to, it has nothing to do with them being lost to Khaine.  No, the dawning of their armour is ritualistic in the mantra they speak while arming themselves, but the helmet is no different from any other piece of wargear.  Exarchs become exarchs because they can't remove their war mask.  There is nothing special about the helmet.  The striking scorpions helmet is only special in that its the last piece of their armour they dawn because they learn how to use the mandiblasters, same with the banshees but that is just it.  Korlandril even thinks that he will get his war mask when he'd learn to use the mandiblasters but Kenenaith tells him about the war mask being metaphorical.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'll post the sketches later, but this isn't how Jes Goodwin sees it, from memory. You're right, the donning of the armour is ritualistic. As such, the helmet has a ritualistic component in the case of the Aspect Warriors. The ritual concludes with them placing the helmet over their heads, symbolically putting the war mask in place. Previous fluff specifically mentions the Aspects putting aside "their ritual masks and wargear", singling out the ritual mask as a key element of the Aspect Warriors, not just the usual war mask. Exarchs are those who have lost all ability to distinguish between their "original" self and their war mask, and they then ritualistically take on an Exarch personality, taking an Exarch suit from a shrine, and taking that name instead of their own. They don't have to wear the helmet anymore because they ARE that Aspect now, as they are an Exarch.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So, to answer OP's question, the only Aspects that I feel need full reworks are the Fast Attack ones. Spiders still look goodish to me but being single piece and samey is a bummer. Spears still use the old models jetbikes which look terrible next to the new plastics, and the Hawks suffer from the aforementioned ballerina poses; I'm not advocating Inceptor-style flight stands, but something that gives them a more dynamic, in-flight look would be great.

 

As for the Reapers, mine are the 3rd Edition sculpts without the ginormous foreheads. They're skinny for heavy armor, but they look better than the 2nd and 4th Edition coneheads. If they're going to resculpt those in plastic, i hope they look more like 3rd Edition era sculpts.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I'll post the sketches later, but this isn't how Jes Goodwin sees it, from memory. You're right, the donning of the armour is ritualistic. As such, the helmet has a ritualistic component in the case of the Aspect Warriors. The ritual concludes with them placing the helmet over their heads, symbolically putting the war mask in place. Previous fluff specifically mentions the Aspects putting aside "their ritual masks and wargear", singling out the ritual mask as a key element of the Aspect Warriors, not just the usual war mask. Exarchs are those who have lost all ability to distinguish between their "original" self and their war mask, and they then ritualistically take on an Exarch personality, taking an Exarch suit from a shrine, and taking that name instead of their own. They don't have to wear the helmet anymore because they ARE that Aspect now, as they are an Exarch.

Its irrelavant how Goodwin see's it, that's not the lore.  But I'd like to see it nevertheless.  No, they become exarchs because they cannot remove the warmask, when they dawn the armour they become one with the other exarchs that where it and their personality and memories become indistinguishable.  They become exarchs because they can't remove their warmask, they become indistinguishable from themselves and their other personalities when they dawn the armour.  That is not why they don't have to wear the helmet anymore, there is no lore that states that.  If a striking scorpion take damage to his helmet he will remove it and continue to fight.

So, to answer OP's question, the only Aspects that I feel need full reworks are the Fast Attack ones. Spiders still look goodish to me but being single piece and samey is a bummer. Spears still use the old models jetbikes which look terrible next to the new plastics, and the Hawks suffer from the aforementioned ballerina poses; I'm not advocating Inceptor-style flight stands, but something that gives them a more dynamic, in-flight look would be great.

 

As for the Reapers, mine are the 3rd Edition sculpts without the ginormous foreheads. They're skinny for heavy armor, but they look better than the 2nd and 4th Edition coneheads. If they're going to resculpt those in plastic, i hope they look more like 3rd Edition era sculpts.

I like the old jetbike models for the shining spears, the new ones are unrealistic for a CC jetbike unit, plus they aren't getting updated as they released the autarch with the shining spears type jetbike and he was released at the time of the new windriders.  

[Lord_Caerolion]

Given he's the creator of the Aspect Warrior fluff basically in its entirety, in fact almost all Eldar fluff, yes he is important.

 

Ok, let me say this again. I'm not denying that Aspect Warriors can't have their helmets damaged mid-battle and need to remove them. I'm saying that Exarchs have unhelmeted heads because, for Aspect Warriors, placing the helmet on their head is a key part of the ritual to put their psychological war mask in place, and part of the Aspect Warrior ritual. A previous codex had a little fluff story including something along the lines of "the Eldar closed her eyes, placed the helmet, and a Howling Banshee opened them". Exarchs, as they have lost the barrier between their old self and their war mask, do not need to partake in this ritual as the Aspect Warriors they lead do, as once they are an Exarch they are always an Exarch. As such, they do not need to place the helmet on because they are not putting a psychological war mask on.

[TorvaldTheMild]

No its not, its either in the lore or its not.  His opinions on aspect warriors that is not in the lore is not cannon.  This is just going in circles, so unless you have a source that proves your point I'm just going to leave it at that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Helmets/masks are the final piece of the ritual to put the war mask in place, per the story piece in 1st Ed Eldar Codex (its only once the helmet is in place that the war mask is actually in place, and their personality radically shifts). Exarchs always have their war mask in place. Therefore, Exarchs do not need their helmet to go to war, but Aspect Warriors do. 

[Karhedron]

I am moving this thread to the Craftworld forum since it is specific to them rather than about Aeldari in general.

[Slasher956]

aspects that need re-doing in order

 

S. spears - the bikes dont fit in looks with the rest of the aeladri line

W. Spiders - look fairly flat (not ragnar blackmane run over by a Land Raider flat... but close to it)

S. Hawks - take the wings off (not hard!!   things) and remove the guns and you have a ballarine troop - good for quins actually! :p

S. Scorpians - need more mass to the models, but overal not bad

D. Reapers - agin need more mass for heavly armoured fire support dudes

F. Dragons - again fairly flat models

S. Spectars - they're nice models... but they're currently FW!

 

need models:

slicing orbs of Zandros - I mean with a cool name like that.. where are they? :p

 

could be updated:

D. Avengers - not really needed ...maybe if guardians where redone

[Karhedron]

S. spears - the bikes dont fit in looks with the rest of the aeladri line

W. Spiders - look fairly flat (not ragnar blackmane run over by a Land Raider flat... but close to it)

I would put these two up at the top. Considering GW has had the new jetbike model for a few years now, I am amazed they are still selling the old ones. Having said that, converting Guardian jetbikes in S.Spears with some High Elf cavalry lances is a pretty easy conversion if you want shiny new models. Warp Spiders are 2nd edition vintage and definitely could do with a revamp.

 

need models:

slicing orbs of Zandros - I mean with a cool name like that.. where are they?

On Zandros, being weirdly terrifying I believe.

[Slasher956]

 

On Zandros, being weirdly terrifying I believe.

 

 

ah but are they on zandros or from Zandros?

 

:p

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If they're unique to Zandros, we'll never see them because Zandros is a dead Craftworld. There was a fluff but about Karandras and Ahra fighting in the ruins of Zandros an Edition or two back.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Helmets/masks are the final piece of the ritual to put the war mask in place, per the story piece in 1st Ed Eldar Codex (its only once the helmet is in place that the war mask is actually in place, and their personality radically shifts). Exarchs always have their war mask in place. Therefore, Exarchs do not need their helmet to go to war, but Aspect Warriors do. 

It only states that its the final piece of the armour to be put on, nothing backs up your idea that helmets are just like warmasks and that exarch's don't need to wear them because they always have their warmasks on, that is just head cannon.  War masks are psychological and metaphors the helmets have nothing to do with their war masks.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Damnit, trying to add photos from my phone is annoying.

 

Anyways, found the bit from the Sketchbook I was looking for. Jes provides warpaint examples for each Aspect, and mentions with the Dire Avengers example “Exarch who is so far along his path that he can assume identity with symbolic markings rather than mask”.

 

Also, the Dire Avengers were apparently going to be called the Wrath Knights, and Fire Dragon also translates as “Fire-From-Heaven”.

[Slasher956]

If they're unique to Zandros, we'll never see them because Zandros is a dead Craftworld. There was a fluff but about Karandras and Ahra fighting in the ruins of Zandros an Edition or two back.

 

well you could have it that they originated in Zandros, or that they are the surivers of zandros... both would keep 'of zandros' in the name

 

However flip side... could be a good bit of fluff they are that terrifying in what they do (did) that it was them who destroyed zandros!

[Captain Coolpants]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with keeping the old style bikes for shining spears. On the new bikes, the riders are leaving forwards quite a bit, obviously not very comfortable with a big lance. The current pose seems far more physically 'doable' and comfortable.

 

 

Swooping hawks are the most in need of new models! Literally the only reason I don't own any, is because they look so incredibly more dated than the rest.

 

I don't own any reapers for the exact same reason.

 

Striking scorpions are too monopose at the moment.

 

Fire dragons I don't think look bad. Just a little 'flat' like someone else mentioned.

They are very monopose, but its actually not as bad for them because who uses more than 5 or 6 in an entire army, let alone nore in a single squad.

[Slasher956]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with keeping the old style bikes for shining spears. On the new bikes, the riders are leaving forwards quite a bit, obviously not very comfortable with a big lance. The current pose seems far more physically 'doable' and comfortable.

 

 

Must admit I've never tried to use a lance ... at all....or tried to use a sword whilst on a bike so not coming from practical experience in the subject :p !

 

However I thought knights where taught to brace them selves and lean into the lance when in the saddle... but I could be wrong.

 

As for the pose I think the leaning forward makes more sense because you are hiding your body behind the mass of the bike cowling and goes more with image of bike handling at speed (see motor GP v cruisers/ choppers)

 

On top of which I just prefer the look of the new bikes, always have since the DE bikes changed ... what about 7 years ago if not more....