List building important decisions - Warlord Traits, Relics..

[Noxnoctis22]

I'm not always the best at getting my ideas down in a text based format as I tend ramble and run on....but I will try.

 

I'd like to start a discussion of certain list building strategies, options and choice we must make when playing RG. Some of these happen while building or list and before we submit it for a tournament and others occur at the table when we see the army we are facing.

 

I'd like to start with the two big choice that we must make, what warlord trait will we take (and on who I guess)? The other being what is the "free" relic that we are choosing. As of right now I see the best options for RG are as follows.

 

Warlord Trait - Master of Ambush

"Free" Relic - Ex Tenebris

 

Now I know we have ways to take additional warlord traits and relics but I'd like to focus on the two choices we have to have locked into our lists to start. Then we can move onto additional options.

 

So my question is what is your go to Warlord Trait and Relic and why?

[Dracos]

I like both you have chose but personally will be using them on different characters myself.

 

Master of Ambush will go the Primaris Chaplain

 

Ex Tenebris is a bit trickier. Right now I’m bouncing list options between a Phobos Captain, Phobos Lt or Primaris Lt.

 

 

The thing is though if I decide to go Phobos Captain it will because of his flexibility and effectiveness pregame choosing between Korvidari Bolts and Oppressors End.

[Jacques Corbin]

Lol, @Dracos and I were just having this discussion as a private conversation. We must be onto something, because folks are coming to the same conclusion.

 

For me, Ex Tenebris is going on the Phopos Lt with the Grav Chutes. I figure drop him in with a squad or two of Carbine Reivers to screen for him. Tactical Doctrine is huge for us, and not just Surgical Strikes, but having AP-1 on all your Rapid Fire and Assault weapons. Ideally, they can drop in behind a character and his screen, the Phobo Lt can shoot the character, and the Reivers can either try to finish him with weight of AP-1 shooting, or shoot to whittle down the screen that will be shooting back.

 

Master of Ambush will be on a Primaris Chaplain, and he will have a unit of Bolter Aggressors with him. Now, I know, folks say Centurions, but I never have liked them, and I may be wrong, but the Devastator variety do not have power fists. Aggressors do, and will shoot twice when redeployed via Master of Ambush, which is where Catechism of Fire comes into play. The idea is to just dissolve a flank. Going second, especially when facing hordes, you can redeploy the Chaplain, and the Aggressors right where you want them to "catch" your opponent's main charge. The Chaplain may be a good candidate for the Silentus Pistol, not in place of Ex Tenebrous, but possibly in addition to it.

 

The biggest issue is having enough Anti-tank. You really want those characters to not have anywhere to hide when the Tactical Doctrine is in effect. If some transports survive, we do have some options in Tactical Doctrine. An Impulsor, with a shield dome, carrying 5 Hellblasters, in reserve, can zoom on 14", the Hellblasters disembark, then they either Rapid Fire1 out to 15" with only 1 shot at 15-30", or Assault2 out to 18". Either way, you are shooting well into your opponent's deployment zone, in most cases. Also, Impulsors <Fly>, so if you start it on the table, you can fly over enemy units, end your move behind them, and then unleash hell. That is where I would put a Phobos Captain, and just let them overcharge with impunity. I guess a Primari Captain would do as well.

 

I guess we could also drop in Plasma Inceptors, but with only 2d3 shots per model, I can't justify committing the points to them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

If you're comparing centurions to aggressors, then the proper ones are assault centurions, not devestator.

 

Hurricane+flame come in about 40 points more than bolt aggressors, but you get an extra wound per model, a better save, much better melee (no modifier str 10 -4 D3 vs. -1 to hit str8 -3 Dd3) and...better shooting? 36 hurricane shots and 6d6 auto-hit vs. 36 boltstorm shots and 6d6 shots. The centurions can move (their admittedly slower speed), shoot and charge off Master of Ambush, while the Aggressors have to sit still. Centurions also ignore cover.

 

Centurions do have derpy models though, and aren't primaris for those who are doing a mono-build.

[Jacques Corbin]

The models are super derpy! And in points, the Centurions are almost 150% the cost of the same number of Aggressors. I can get another squad of anything in my list for around 100+ points. That is 5 more wounds, and 10 more shots. I just cannot do it! It is a eggs in one basket thing. Because, they will die, and take all those points I sunk into them, with them.

 

Because we are hardly the only ones to have figured out Chaplain with MoA and Aggressors/Centurions. There are plenty of players out there coming up with counters. Mostly it will be reactions, like they delete a unit, and the rest of the opponent's army deletes them. Savvy opponents will either castle up everything in the middle or on a flank, or make two castles with one on each flank with almost nothing in the middle. Yes, you can appear in front of one flank, and the exchange will be brutal, but then you have to foot slog to the other flank, taking fire the whole way, after being worn down from earlier fighting.

 

Not doing a mono build by any means. I will be running two Thunderfire Cannons, because AP-2 during first turn is great! Scouts are still a thing. Hell, I am considering finally finishing my Scout Bikers. Those guys are fast, and put out a lot of Bolter shots, even more if sarge takes a Storm Bolter. They are good for forcing our opponent to decide between a directional screen for his characters or 360° bubblewrap. As we all know, the latter means less bodies between our guns and that character, unless it is Tau drones, or units with a bodyguard rule. Even so, we know to shoot at them first anyway.

 

With these latest rules, my priorities are Board Control, Enemy Characters, and any threats to my scoring units, in that order. We win by playing to the mission and the objectives. Let the Tau, Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Chaos try to wipe us out. They won't, and winning even if you are tabled, because you have more VP is a thing now. One thing I do not miss about Virginia is people trying to play the original 8th missions, so they can go for a table victory. Hopefully Georgia will be better.

[SkimaskMohawk]

What? Assault centurions are certainly not almost 150% the cost of aggressors. Theyre a 40% increase in cost; 222 for 6 aggressors, 312 for 6 centurions.

 

Not sure what the rest is for; you specifically said you were taking a MoA chaplain for aggressors. You're investing points into a basket for the same unit, but worse. Every valid point you make about screening the MoA unit affects aggressors even more.

 

As an aside, I always found VP accumulation odd vs say just holding objectives for the end of the game. I like being able to look at a game and see how it's going, compared to looking at an itc score card to figure out who engineered harder, who sat around on the objectives more and who managed to kill more on any given turn. You can justify them both in terms of narrative strategic impact, but the end game causality feels a lot more organic in how the game plays out.

[chapter master 454]

I do agree with the idea of pocketing a phobos package of HQs just for when you want a tenebris or korvidari sniper. Both have applications due to what they excel at as I would certainly say one thing about the korvidari bolt sniper: it may be 1 shot per round but when its targeting a character that is doing work out of line of sight from an Ex Tenebris, at that point its one more shot than you would of got normally.

 

Not to mention, it does have a mental factor since it comes from a character itself so they can't exactly get rid of it swiftly not easily ether because it can hide for the same reasons it can hunt other characters.

 

I do want to talk about some other things here and there, mainly I want to talk about Ebonclaws. I know Captain Slash is just raw cheaper by a mile but I mean, a captain with these would be a terror with Imperium's Sword base and if you wanted to go in you can ether opt for the character hunter generic trait or master of vigilance. Re-rolling hit rolls (sicne he hits on 2s), re-rolling to wound with strength 5 and AP2 coupled with D3 damage a go. Again, expensive compared to Captain Slash but still, thoughts?

[Jacques Corbin]

Agreed. Scout bikers are now fast and good, not to mention Scouts with Shotguns. Seriously, nobody is talking about Scout Shotguns getting that sweet AP-1. Scout bikers, 14" move, twin bolters on the bikes, Astartes Shotguns, and the Sergeant can replace his bolt pistol with a Storm Bolter. All that is AP-1 during Tactical Doctrine, and the Shotguns are S5 if you get within 6". Between Scout Bikers, and Shotgun Scouts in a Land Speeder Storm, that is very possible. Also, both those units are very cheap.

 

I am also trying to convince myself to like the Invictor Warsuit. On paper it is a Rockstar, but practically, I see it as not surviving turn 1 if you go second. I mean, are we running it as a distraction unit, or is it legit there for support? I also see a lot of people running it with the Incendium Cannon, as opposed to the Auto Cannon. I feel the Auto Cannon is the better option, as it has the stubbers and the Heavy Bolter for mulching infantry. So much of our units do anti infantry well, so thought has to be given to removing transports early on. I would utilize the Invictor to support Incursors, have it close enough to at least one of them to be able to charge into anything that the Incursors get into melee with.

 

Also, brothers, maybe some discussion to how the opponent reacts to these various strategies/combos is warranted. Some things seem great on paper, especially in a vacuum, but what is the response going to be from the other side of the table?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

What about successor Chapters? I think adding in chapter tactics would be a good idea.

 

If I could only have one WL trait it would be Shadowmaster. I plan on fielding a Bladewing Assault Brotherhood. No overwatch, at the right time is game changing.

 

My relic will be the Ebonclaws. I have to pay the 1 cp so im not sure if this means its off topic. If I cant use a cp then it will be the Master Crafted lighting claws.

 

As I said I'm play a successor to the XIX. My chapter tactics will be Duellists and Hungry for Battle.

 

This Stike Force will be escort for 3 Knights. My Astartes have been on the shelf for sime time. I'm excited to see if they have any of their old magic.

[Claws and Effect]

What? Assault centurions are certainly not almost 150% the cost of aggressors. Theyre a 40% increase in cost; 222 for 6 aggressors, 312 for 6 centurions.

That makes them, by definition, nearly 150% the cost.

 

150% of something is a 50% increase. Therefore a 40% increase is 140% the cost.

 

2 different ways of saying the same thing.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, I misinterpreted it as an 150% increase.

 

Regardless, in terms of value, the aggressors get outperformed in every metric compared to assault centurions.

[Brom MKIV]

Except movement! The gold nugget.

Centurions charge fail rate from reserve doubles over that of assault cents, becoming impossible after the second fail. 9" to 11" to >12" vs standard infantry falling back.

 

Obviously not that simple when we consider other factors like the potential assistance of a chappy or hungry for battle but still worth mentioning.

Aggressors have, theoretically, a small but viable chance at a second and even third attempt. Although neither unit wants to fail their first. 

 

 

On the downside again, one of the biggest reasons for cents I haven't seen mentioned yet is hammers. Cents are literally twice as tough against hammer toting units or equivalents (dreads, drills, etc etc). 

 

Maybe aggressors will see a discount come CA 19'.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Thats a good point with charging from reserve. The contrasting point is if you're going to use master of ambush to position the aggressors for double tap, then their movement is heavily disadvantaged compared to the assault centurions who should be in the thick of things.

 

Maybe aggressors as screen-clearers for other units like warsuits? Able to support them in later turns as necessary.

[Brom MKIV]

This is where I'm really at.. if you own aggressors and not cents then no sweat they work and they're good. Movement could matter and W3 is better vs D2 weaponry where aggressors basically count as W4 models. 

 

If you don't own either then theres a decision but one that favors cents.

 

I'm rolling cents personally.