2 Titans tall km to guard of eternity gate?

[Whitelion]

 

As far as I know all that is reported in the novels is canon, so the giant titans I have mentioned exist, they are not printing errors, they are canon because they are part of official novels. There are simply Titans of the same class but of different sizes, belonging to different armies. Also on wikia, lexicanum and 1for4chan report that they have a variable size. The same Titan Imperator, there are different sizes, from 40 to 150 meters.

The photo of Titanicus: Vivaporius 2 is canon, it is not a fan made invention, and based on the size of the scale that warlord is at least 600 meters high. Look for it on google.

 

I'm not saying that all warlods are 600 meters high, I'm just saying that there are some larger specimens and some smaller ones. They are exceptions.

There are not, because titans are built using STC constructs so you’re never going to have 150 feet tall warhounds and 45 feet tall warhounds, only 45 feet tall warhounds.

Really don't like how Imperator Titans have been downsized to 50-60m tall since Betrayer. Kinda weaksauce IMO

They can’t be much bigger. They already wouldn’t be able to not sink into the ground.

 

 

I respect your point of view but I cannot give you reason, simply because you are contradicting the canon. You say that the authors have exaggerated, but when a canon work is released all the information and events contained in it are officially recognized by the canon.

I can understand that you like smaller Titans but we cannot deny the fee. And for the canon there are Titans of different sizes belonging to different armies.

 

As for the weight I wouldn't give it too much importance, as setting 40k it's not a very scifi based on realism and objective physics, and in the end it's nice for this. We even have Titans shooting demons (like the Castigator), and Titans like the Apocalypse class which is described to be so much bigger than a Titan Imperator that it obscures the horizon and is visible from the orbit. Realism is the last of the 40k authors' problems.

[Marshal Rohr]

There are not warhound titans that are 100 feet taller than other warhound titans. That’s patently ludicrous. If one Forge World could make a warhound titans that was larger than a warlord, why don’t they give that warhound warlord weapons? Why would you give a massive warhound this huge plasma blastgun, that is just as effective as a very small one? I’m not contradicting canon, I provided the exact specifications of the Mars pattern titans (patterns which by the way, are the in universe highest standard of Titan) drawn from a book published in 2018. Legions used to be ten thousand and now they are hundreds of thousands. Black templars used to be secular now they worship the Emperor. The lore is retconned all the time. Titans are no longer ridiculously huge. They’re just huge. This argument only pops up when people have no idea the frame of reference for the massive size. The Burj Khalifa is the same height as the Titan on the cover of that magazine. I’ve seen the Burj Khalifa from the Ground and the air. It literally pierces the clouds. Titans are not that big. GRR Martin is famous for :cuss up the height of the wall because he had no idea what 800ft looked like. This is a similar situation.

[Whitelion]

I don't want to contradict you, but a canon element can only be invalidated by an official statement from the authors. As long as this does not happen we can say that there are titans of the same class of larger or smaller size, in fact there are also Titans emperor class of 43 meters and Warlord of 27 meters. Even if you think that a Titan of 600 meters is unrealistic, keep in mind that it is a work of entertainment, realism is not needed, indeed it is often counterproductive, makes the work stale and repetitive. An impressive titan is instead a good twist in the novel. Titans of different sizes for the canon simply exist, they are not the norm, but if you think about it a standard dimension does not exist, the dimensions vary in each novel, it would be presumptuous to force a single dimension according to your personal taste. Isn't it more objective to stick to what the authors of 40k declare canon? Does it bother you so much that there may also be titans from the same class, smaller or larger? At the bottom of the story is good for the authors .... otherwise they would have communicated as the only given data the dimensions declared by Forgeworld, but as far as I know the novels are canon.

[Marshal Rohr]

The published dimensions in the Titanicus rulebooks are an official statement from the authors.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Can this die already? 

[Gederas]

I don't want to contradict you, but a canon element can only be invalidated by an official statement from the authors. As long as this does not happen we can say that there are titans of the same class of larger or smaller size, in fact there are also Titans emperor class of 43 meters and Warlord of 27 meters. Even if you think that a Titan of 600 meters is unrealistic, keep in mind that it is a work of entertainment, realism is not needed, indeed it is often counterproductive, makes the work stale and repetitive. An impressive titan is instead a good twist in the novel. Titans of different sizes for the canon simply exist, they are not the norm, but if you think about it a standard dimension does not exist, the dimensions vary in each novel, it would be presumptuous to force a single dimension according to your personal taste. Isn't it more objective to stick to what the authors of 40k declare canon? Does it bother you so much that there may also be titans from the same class, smaller or larger? At the bottom of the story is good for the authors .... otherwise they would have communicated as the only given data the dimensions declared by Forgeworld, but as far as I know the novels are canon.

They're canon until they're expressly contradicted by a gamebook. That has always been GW's stance.

 

So no. Titan heights are set in stone, because they're STC-built.

[Spleenex]

The published dimensions in the Titanicus rulebooks are an official statement from the authors.

 

The concept of canon in 40k is a bit of a parlous one to begin with, for a variety off reasons. Further, I don't think there's ever been a "hierarchy of canon" established as was the case with the old SWEU, for example. That said, as the setting is first and foremost about gaming, so I'm inclined to agree with you, Marshal, that rule books - especially recent ones - take precedence in that respect. However, the inherent uncertainty and vastness of the setting means that exact measurements are probably hard to come by. I've always just chalked the wildly inconsistent units, weights, power levels, etc. up to unreliable narrators. After all, if the Imperium can be said to have one underlying organizational principle as a society, it would be "ignorance." So, sure, some flea-bitten grox farmer from Podunkia XII might have seen a titan during a recent invasion or something, and instead of 36 meters, its now "600 meters and on fire, and the Emperor was riding it's 'ed an' it were shootin' space marines out it's great guns, I tells ya!" (Also likely alcohol involved in this specific scenario.)

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The published dimensions in the Titanicus rulebooks are an official statement from the authors.

 

The concept of canon in 40k is a bit of a parlous one to begin with, for a variety off reasons. Further, I don't think there's ever been a "hierarchy of canon" established as was the case with the old SWEU, for example. That said, as the setting is first and foremost about gaming, so I'm inclined to agree with you, Marshal, that rule books - especially recent ones - take precedence in that respect. However, the inherent uncertainty and vastness of the setting means that exact measurements are probably hard to come by. I've always just chalked the wildly inconsistent units, weights, power levels, etc. up to unreliable narrators. After all, if the Imperium can be said to have one underlying organizational principle as a society, it would be "ignorance." So, sure, some flea-bitten grox farmer from Podunkia XII might have seen a titan during a recent invasion or something, and instead of 36 meters, its now "600 meters and on fire, and the Emperor was riding it's 'ed an' it were shootin' space marines out it's great guns, I tells ya!" (Also likely alcohol involved in this specific scenario.)

 

 

Sure, but an unreliable narrator doesn't contradict the vehicle specs in the Titanicus Books and represented at those dimensions by a very near approximation in Titanicus and 40k. Big titans are cool and dramatic, but they're definitely not as tall as WL is suggesting.

[gideon stargreave]

They're as big as you want or need them to be

 

 

In the words of Marc Gascoigne (overall manager of Black Library prior to 2008):

 

"I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."

[Fajita Fan]

I prefer the idea of a smaller scale of titan just because it's comical thinking of bearings and actuators meant to move the hips of a 500m tall robot right before it steps in a sinkhole.

[Wulf Vengis]

The last line of that "or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you", is very Inquisition-esque or high lords of terra in its implications. Implying there may be a hard truth but populace would never know.

[Whitelion]

The published dimensions in the Titanicus rulebooks are an official statement from the authors.

 

even the novels are canon and are officially recognized as such, if they were not officially approved by the authors they could not be published.

 

 

 

They're canon until they're expressly contradicted by a gamebook. That has always been GW's stance.

 

So no. Titan heights are set in stone, because they're STC-built.

 

 

Could you tell me your source? Since both the novels and the books of the game rules are official sources, surely you have an official source that states what you say, otherwise it is a fandom speculation.

But if, as you say, the authors have established a canon hierarchy, where the game books take precedence on the novels, then could you kindly tell me the official link where I can read about it?

 

----

 

I don't see the problem, if there are many canon sources (all canon and never officially denied) that claim various dimensions for the titans, then there are titans of various sizes. Based on the frequency with which they appear in the nopvels we can estimate an average size, but not a standard one.

Noon it is rare that in war the specifications of individual units in size and armaments are altered to be used in specific missions.

If for example in a military campaign there is a need for a smaller or larger titan why shouldn't they change it for that single campaign? Also because a Warhoud of 35 meters is faster than a Warlord of 35 meters with the same dimensions, they are also tactical choices.

[Gederas]

They're canon until they're expressly contradicted by a gamebook. That has always been GW's stance.

 

So no. Titan heights are set in stone, because they're STC-built.

Could you tell me your source? Since both the novels and the books of the game rules are official sources, surely you have an official source that states what you say, otherwise it is a fandom speculation.

But if, as you say, the authors have established a canon hierarchy, where the game books take precedence on the novels, then could you kindly tell me the official link where I can read about it?

Okay, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're NOT trolling everyone:

 

Black Library is always treated as 'canon unless the codices/rulebooks state otherwise'

 

For example: The Blood Angels novels (the Rafen Series) were canon... Up until the point when the Blood Angels codices contradicted them heavily.

 

That's how it's always been with GW.

 

Also:

I don't see the problem, if there are many canon sources (all canon and never officially denied) that claim various dimensions for the titans, then there are titans of various sizes. Based on the frequency with which they appear in the nopvels we can estimate an average size, but not a standard one.

Noon it is rare that in war the specifications of individual units in size and armaments are altered to be used in specific missions.

If for example in a military campaign there is a need for a smaller or larger titan why shouldn't they change it for that single campaign? Also because a Warhoud of 35 meters is faster than a Warlord of 35 meters with the same dimensions, they are also tactical choices.

You can't have a Warhound titan be 35 meters tall because that's not the size of a Warhound Titan, that's the height of a Warlord Titan.

 

Also because that's Tech-Heresy of the highest order and the entire Adeptus Mechanicus would have a collective conniption/aneurysm at someone trying to modify a God-Machine's design to the point where it's SIZE CLASS is changed.

 

To use real life examples: Battleships are never the size of Destroyers, and Aircraft Carriers are never the size of Cruisers. Because that's not how the design of what the vehicle is needed for works.

[Beren]

Titans can take years to build, so modification that alter its every proportion aren't really viable for a single campaign. Plus, these are some of the holiest machines in the Mechanicus/Mechanicum, and we know how they can get about modifying things. Size isn't just swapping out some circuitry or swapping weapons loadouts, you're talking about major structural alterations that aren't really feasible on that level.

 

Also, if you're going to modify a warhound to be that large why not just use a Warlord?

 

I can also confirm that page 8 of the Adeptus Titanicus rulebook states the resting height of a Warhound Titan to be 17.08 metres.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The published dimensions in the Titanicus rulebooks are an official statement from the authors.

 

even the novels are canon and are officially recognized as such, if they were not officially approved by the authors they could not be published.

 

 

 

They're canon until they're expressly contradicted by a gamebook. That has always been GW's stance.

 

So no. Titan heights are set in stone, because they're STC-built.

 

 

Could you tell me your source? Since both the novels and the books of the game rules are official sources, surely you have an official source that states what you say, otherwise it is a fandom speculation.

But if, as you say, the authors have established a canon hierarchy, where the game books take precedence on the novels, then could you kindly tell me the official link where I can read about it?

 

----

 

I don't see the problem, if there are many canon sources (all canon and never officially denied) that claim various dimensions for the titans, then there are titans of various sizes. Based on the frequency with which they appear in the nopvels we can estimate an average size, but not a standard one.

Noon it is rare that in war the specifications of individual units in size and armaments are altered to be used in specific missions.

If for example in a military campaign there is a need for a smaller or larger titan why shouldn't they change it for that single campaign? Also because a Warhoud of 35 meters is faster than a Warlord of 35 meters with the same dimensions, they are also tactical choices.

 

 

After seeing your post about the Dreamforge Leviathan, I think I understand whats going on. As a new player you are looking at older sources. Those sources are out of date. The same way the Epic Space Marine source is cool, but out of date. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I don't see the problem, if there are many canon sources (all canon and never officially denied) that claim various dimensions for the titans, then there are titans of various sizes. Based on the frequency with which they appear in the novels we can estimate an average size, but not a standard one.

Noon it is rare that in war the specifications of individual units in size and armaments are altered to be used in specific missions.

If for example in a military campaign there is a need for a smaller or larger titan why shouldn't they change it for that single campaign? Also because a Warhoud of 35 meters is faster than a Warlord of 35 meters with the same dimensions, they are also tactical choices.

 

 

Because to make the changes in size you're describing would essentially just involve creating an entirely new Titan. That's like saying "I need to pick up 30 people on the weekend, so I'm going to refit my Mini Cooper into a bus". We're not talking about slight changes, but literally halving/doubling the size of Titans. Unless we're ending up with a Warhound on stilt legs, to keep the main chassis in proportion to the rest of the body, and at that point you're not changing that Titan, you've just got multiple Warhounds at different sizes.

 

Also again, we do get a consistent size, which is after GW stopped giving the official size of titans as "big", but actual heights. Since then, their portrayal has been consistent. As mentioned earlier, there are also multiple conflicting sources saying how large the Legions were, some that the Ultramarines never got above 20,000 or so, and then the more recent novels/sources that show the Ultramarines as reaching 230,000, and the smallest Legions being around 80/90,000, because the average Legion size being only 10,000 made no sense whatsoever.

The older novels still exist with these smaller sizes. That doesn't make them correct. It makes them correct at the time, and later retconned when subsequent novels contradicted this. It doesn't mean the Ultramarines Legion was simultaneously 20,000 strong and also 230,000 strong, which is what your interpretation would mean.

 

Did the Burning of Prospero occur before or after Istvaan? Because 99% of all fluff says before, but the novel Outcast Dead says it happened after. Outcast Dead is still for sale, and hasn't been rewritten. Does that mean the Burning occurred simultaneously before and after Istvaan? No. It means that a book changed it, and it immediately got changed back (because that change was both incorrect and stupid).

 

Older sources get retconned and outdated all the time, and GW never officially states "this year, the following publications became untrue". Hell, if you go way back to 1st Edition, the Ultramarines aren't a First Founding Chapter, Leman Russ was just an Imperial Guard commander, and the Space Wolves came from the planet Lycan.

[Whitelion]

@Gederas: I understand your point, but you also understand mine, you affirm this but official statements in support of what you say I have never read, please indicate a link where I can read official statements in support of what you said , because otherwise you are just expressing your opinion. Basically I am not asking for anything absurd, since you say that there is a hierarchy of fees, I assume you read it from an official source. Precisely for this reason I ask you to share it with me, you cannot expect it to take only your statements as canon.

 

For the dimensions of a Titan I believe that it depends solely on what the authors have in mind, the rest does not matter much. Variants of each weapon exist, size is only a variant. The biggest titans were built (at least as far as I know, but I only read it, I may be wrong) in the Dark Age of Technology, we don't know what they produced in DAoT. I remember the Titan Castigator (which I really like) which was much bigger than an Imperator Class and shot demons .... how much realism do you think there is in this? I don't think making Titans of different sizes for the same class is much more illogical than a Titan of hundreds of meters shooting demons and having a mind possessed by a warp demon.

 

@Beren: I think that two mechs of the same size will always have different performances, the performances of the generator are different, the pace, the speed of movement, the type of joints, the length of the limbs, the aiming systems, the sensors and so on Street. It is illogical to think that the performance depends only on the height of a machine.

I read some time ago the regulation of adeptus titanicus and I know it is canon, I only say that novels are also canon, and since there are no official statements invalidating the novels, it is logical to think that there are special units made in larger or smaller sizes, even for the writer's simple need for plot. But this does not make the thing non-canon.

 

@Marshal Rohr: yes you are right I am new, in my small way I read about 6 codexes and rulebooks, I'm reading Titanicus as a novel and I literally devoured lexicanum. But even if I'm new, I'm trying to reason objectively and devoid of personal tastes only on the material declared canon, I'm not inventing anything.

You are advising me to rely only on new canon sources, but if the old ones were not declared non-canon why should I not consider them as canon? I cannot arbitrarily decide from me what is canon and what is not.

 

However in my opinion the choice of the authors makes sense, having anomalous units that sometimes make their appearance makes the plot less static and more complete than twists. Otherwise everything would be reduced to a trivial chess game, in which the pieces are always the same, and only the strategy would make the difference.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

@Marshal Rohr: yes you are right I am new, in my small way I read about 6 codexes and rulebooks, I'm reading Titanicus as a novel and I literally devoured lexicanum. But even if I'm new, I'm trying to reason objectively and devoid of personal tastes only on the material declared canon, I'm not inventing anything.

You are advising me to rely only on new canon sources, but if the old ones were not declared non-canon why should I not consider them as canon? I cannot arbitrarily decide from me what is canon and what is not.

 

 

Because that's how reality works. You not having read something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, any more than me not knowing the intricacies of engineering means a car runs because magic.

If I'm new to the hobby, and had only read 1st Edition stuff, that doesn't mean that the Space Wolves now come from Lycan.

[Beren]

Right, so you entirely ignored the statements about how such modifications wouldn't be made because of building times and the whole tech-religion thing.

 

Plus, your source is an online thread that doesn't even name its source and doesn't state that the Titans are Warhounds, so you don't really have much of a leg to stand on. If every other aource states that the gate is guarded by two normally sized warhound, especially recent sources, then the individual was either mistaken or stating an obscure and outdated source that has since been contradicted and retconned.

 

Honestly, I think you need to do more research into what you see online before you come on here and asking 'what do you think'?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I will admit that the Titans are one of the things that only got solidified fairly recently. For so long they got put off because they're never really part of the actual game, as opposed to the Marines who are front and centre, so got their Heresy-era numbers clarified to actually make sense, etc. Titans, on the other hand, got a side-game decades ago, then basically shunted off into the "too big" category, and only just in the last few years are starting to get whipped into some sort of shape.

[Whitelion]

@ Lord_Caerolion: I don't discuss your point, on the contrary I'm just saying that all canon works are valid, both past and current sources. Reasoning only about recent sources, and considering old ones as invalid is absurd. As long as the old ones will be considered canon by the authors what they claim is valid exactly like the most recent canon sources, we cannot do the choice of what is canon, it is the prerogative of the authors, not of the fans who dislike the big titans.

 

@Beren: The sources I rely on are canon:

 

Titanicus: Vivaporius - Warlord about 6-700 meters high

 

AGE OF DARKNESS pag. 313-314 and 345 - Titan Imperator Omnia Victrum which is kilometers high

 

I can also supply other sources if you want, 40k is full of quotes about it, both in novels and in comics, The Titan Imperator in novels is rarely credited to 60 meters, usually ranging from 80 to 100 meters, up to 150 meters. Regarding the link I posted, I never considered it good, in fact, I created the topic just to know from you if it was reliable.

 

If I write badly I apologize, unfortunately I am not a native English speaker.

[Gore Crow]

As Lord_Caerolion said, titan sizes and scales have been fairly nebulous and open to artistic licence until relatively recently.

The main phrase I've heard bandied around about 40k lore is that 'everything is canon, but not everything is true."

This means that while we do have stories with titans kilometres high and other weird bits of old lore, they can be explained away in the face of more recent/'official' sources that contradict them by saying that the in-universe storytellers got it wrong, exaggerated, or were maybe standing way closer than they thought they were. (Or whatever)

 

That said, you won't get a GW branded retcon announcement so if you would like to believe that there are such engines roaming around your own battlefields, you can. But as evidenced here you might have a hard time convincing others to take your in-universe source at face value.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

@ Lord_Caerolion: I don't discuss your point, on the contrary I'm just saying that all canon works are valid, both past and current sources. Reasoning only about recent sources, and considering old ones as invalid is absurd. As long as the old ones will be considered canon by the authors what they claim is valid exactly like the most recent canon sources, we cannot do the choice of what is canon, it is the prerogative of the authors, not of the fans who dislike the big titans.

 

@Beren: The sources I rely on are canon:

 

Titanicus: Vivaporius - Warlord about 6-700 meters high

 

AGE OF DARKNESS pag. 313-314 and 345 - Titan Imperator Omnia Victrum which is kilometers high

 

I can also supply other sources if you want, 40k is full of quotes about it, both in novels and in comics, The Titan Imperator in novels is rarely credited to 60 meters, usually ranging from 80 to 100 meters, up to 150 meters. Regarding the link I posted, I never considered it good, in fact, I created the topic just to know from you if it was reliable.

 

If I write badly I apologize, unfortunately I am not a native English speaker.

 

 

Ok, so what size is the Ultramarines Legion at the time of the outbreak of the Horus Heresy? We've got older sources claiming it's roughly 20,000, the largest Legion in existence, and then we've got every recent source, from after the first few Horus Heresy novels, basically once Forge World got involved, that the smallest Legion (the Salamanders), had roughly 80,000 at the outbreak of the Heresy, and the Ultramarines had around 230,000.

 

That's the thing, the older sources aren't considered canon, or at least not considered true. GW has not, and will not, come out and say "hey guys, by the way, the following novels are no longer canon". Instead, they'll just publish new novels and fluff contradicting the old fluff, and keep consistently staying true to this new version.

Yes, you can have an old source that claims that titans are kilometres tall. There's also old sources that state that the Ultramarines weren't First Founding, that their Chief Librarian was half-Eldar, that Leman Russ was a baseline human. Hell, some Index Astartes articles claimed that Ferrus Manus was one of the Primarchs who argued against the introduction of the Codex Astartes after the Siege of Terra.

 

I guess you can think of it like Animal Farm. All fluff is canon, but some fluff is more canon than others. The fluff you're citing is not in that second category, it's in the "quietly ignore and repeatedly contradict" category.

[MegaVolt87]

I always thought they were two warlord class from Legio Ignatum, not warhounds (?) Also, rule of thumb, newer lore that treads the same ground in 30k/40k is always a recton, been an unspoken official thing since forever. Nothing stopping you from using/ liking past iterations, especially for things like colours, heraldry etc. 

[Xisor]

Canon was settled in the =][= books, including most recently in, if memory serves, "Resurrection" by auld John French.

 

Specifically: EYHBTIAL.

 

You have been told of the Inquisition; that shadowy organisation which defends Mankind and the Emperor from the perils of heresy, possession, alien dominance and rebellion.

 

You have been told the Inquisition are the ultimate defence against the phantoms of fear and terror which lurk in the darkness between the stars.

 

You have been told the Inquisition are the bright saviours in an eclipse of evil; purest and most devoted warriors of the Emperor.

 

You have been told the Inquisition is united in its cause to rid the galaxy of any threat, from without or within.

 

Everything you have been told is a lie.

 

And more to the point, STC technology isn't stamp-printing.

 

If you need to build your Titan out of Vesuvian steelwood instead of Martian grade adamantium, you might have to make the legs a bit longer to give the same dynamic range under pressures (Vesuvian steelwood having fibrous properties that benefit from extended length for decreased girth, say).

 

If STC stuff can't take parameters, I'll eat my Kar Duniash pattern Mk XIII space hat.

 

---

 

Realistically, canon is what current authors, writers and editors refer to, defer to or decide to overwrite.

 

Sometimes that can be by accident rather than knowing design, in which case the dark gods (& Cegorach) delight, and you now can have many schisms within the various archivist communities of 40k.

 

But it's still canon. Or not.

 

Whether it is sensible to refer to for the purpose of making a decision, however...