Scale and Pace of the Game: A Survey

[MinoanFresco]

Hello all!

 

1.) What kind of list do you enjoy playing? (mech, footslogger, balanced, elites, russ's, lords o' war, other)

 

AND

 

2.) What are your thoughts on the current game scale/pace for your army? Do you like it? Are you completing your games in a reasonable time/enjoyable fashion? How could your experience be improved upon, if possible? 

 

For examplio:

 

1.) I play foot-guard with artillery and some rough riders.

 

2.) Bigger games for me take a very long time, due to the sheer scale of the game. I remember when an infantry squad was 60 points (before weapons and upgrades!) Also, there are so many dice to roll and reroll for each squad. That being said, I typically play smaller games 500 to 750 points and I enjoy myself since they don't take more than an hour or so. ;)

 

Please share your thoughts,

 

~MinoanFresco

[ProminusIV]

1. Balanced, 6-8 infantry squads in a 1750 game.

 

2. 1750 takes a lot of time against similar infantry heavy armies. Too long to play often. But smaller games can be very hit or miss imo. But 40k seems not as balanced for 1000p games as is 1750-2000. 

[WarriorFish]

My usual list is balanced, the general core remains unchanged over the years! A good number of troopers supported by some big guns (Russ or artillery) with some outrider elements (Sentinels and/or Hellhounds). I call it "Guard classic" for a reason :P It's fluffy and capable :)

 

The game's pace is better than previous editions but you can't avoid the nature of more models meaning more time. Guard don't have weird and wonderful rules coming out of their ears unlike some armies which helps offset the extra models you'll have on the table but usually that's straight shooting attacks that aren't complicated. Plus we play for fun and aren't watching the time as you have to in tourney so games naturally take longer for it :P

 

While improvements to the speed of the game would be welcome, I think other improvements would be more so! But as far as Guard go as a horde army they're not too bad especially if you're a veteran Guard commander :)

[Galron]

1. Heavy mechanized since I haven't finished my all infantry force yet. Usually 5 squads of infantry with 4 or 5 chimeras and 6 or 7 tank models.

 

2. I don't mind larger games although I haven't played many lately since my group has adopted 2k as standard :(  I prefer 2500-3k. Then again I am more into the spectacle of the game than the game itself.

[HallofStovokor]

1. I run a balanced list. I take 9 infantry squads 3 tank commanders 3 basilisks, mortar squads and Bullgryn melee bomb with a priest and 2 lord commissars.

 

2. I typically play around 2000 points, but I like to play 1000-2000 points. Below 1000 is too difficult for opponents to field an effective army and over 2000 makes the game too long. The exception is Guard on guard or guard on Tau. Those games take forever at most points amounts.

[Expendable_Aquanaut]

1. I usually skew towards lower model count lists. I either run scions with a few scattered transports or I run less than 5 guard squads and some tanks or knight armigers.

 

2. I usually play smaller games. We've been running combat patrols of about 350 points in one patrol detachment. With 4 people at once we can get a game in on a weeknight no problem. We've also been doing dome 2v2 matches at 1k per player but that seems to be more of a full day affair. I don't remember my last 2k point list that I ran. It's been a while. It was likely at the last tournament I went to. I dont think any game there went more than 3 or 4 rounds.

[MinoanFresco]

Hello fellow commanders,

 

I suppose the only way to reduce game time are the things people mentioned above; using your time effectively on your turns and/or reducing the model count in your lists. OR playing smaller games (though that might be suspect to imbalanced matches). :/  

 

GW have increased the scale of 40k, yes, but I wonder what the state of the game would be if it had stayed on the smaller side? Alas, a smaller scale for the game probably wouldn't have jived well with their business model of selling mo' minis. 

 

Cheers,

 

~MinoanFresco

[tychobi]

2k or 1500 ITC. I usually play a heathy mix but recently began to lean mech heavy. Working on a gaggle of 19 bullgrin.

 

Clocks speed up games. Spam speeds up games. Most of all experience. Looking up rules mid game eats time.

 

Armageddon rules are amazing and really speed things along. You dont need silly model counts either. For casual gaming it is a vastly superior system. Might be better for serious players too. Much less granular, much less for new players to get caught on, no alfa strike feel bads! Great fun. We are slowly drawing support in my gaming group for a general switch over. Even the heavy tournament guys like it!

[Mordian Glory]

As a pure infantry commander I have found this edition to be overall slower:

 

• In the old codex I could blob up squads which made it much easier to move large bodies of men across the board and made it much quicker when firing a big blob of guys. Now, with all Infantry Squads being separate, I have to move each unit one at a time and be careful not to get guys from different units mixed up.
• Also when shooting, I have to roll my lasguns, put those dice down and then shoot my special weapon, then put that dice down and fire my heavy weapon for each squad separately. With the old combined squads I could role my special weapons, heavy weapons and lasguns for up to 6 squads at the same time.
• Combine this with the increase from 1850pts to 2k for a standard size game and guardsmen getting cheaper, and I have to be really on my toes and focused so I can play fast.
• With all weapons being able to wound stuff, I find a lot more dice are being rolled (didnt use to roll my lasguns when shooting vehicles).
• Finally, Split fire adds more time, as I may have to spend time explaining to my opponent if special weapon and heavy weapons are shooting at a different target.

 

Having said that, the reduction in special rules at the start of 8th and the streamlined system, games used to be slightly quicker. Now with the return of rules bloat and power creep, games are taking much longer. I am finding a lot of time is being wasted on my opponents looking up rules, or me asking them to show/check some new rule.

 

Now I am not saying I don't like 8th. It is probably one of my favourite editions. I have had no issues with timings when playing against people who are really familiar with their army and mine. So I guess it really comes down to player experience more than anything else.  

[MinoanFresco]

Hello Tychobi,

 

Would you mind giving a quick run-down of the key differences between the Armageddon rule set and the standard rules in 8th for those of us (me) that are unfamiliar?

 

2k or 1500 ITC. I usually play a heathy mix but recently began to lean mech heavy. Working on a gaggle of 19 bullgrin.

Clocks speed up games. Spam speeds up games. Most of all experience. Looking up rules mid game eats time.

Armageddon rules are amazing and really speed things along. You dont need silly model counts either. For casual gaming it is a vastly superior system. Might be better for serious players too. Much less granular, much less for new players to get caught on, no alfa strike feel bads! Great fun. We are slowly drawing support in my gaming group for a general switch over. Even the heavy tournament guys like it!

 

Also, Heyo Mordian Glory! No real counter against rules bloat is there? Except, I guess, a dearth of rules, lol. Keep sloggin away- we foot-guard players gotta stick together!

 

Cheers,

 

~MinoanFresco

[Feral_80]

Q1: I play a balanced mix. A major reason for that is that re: Q2 I hate the current pace of the game for AM.

 

Pure infantry in theory is powerful, but in practice it is unplayable and boring. Games over 1500 now take ages to play with almost any army. Balanced or even elite seems the only way to go, and as has been said already Armageddon rules are vastly superior to those of 40k. But I have the impression that GW is not going to support Armageddon that much...

[tychobi]

Armageddon is now a different game than 40k 8th ed. Earlier editions of Armageddon had very few actual concessions for large scape and often were a rules add on rather than a separate game.

 

Big differences include:

 

Detachments act as units more or less. You give an entire detachment an order and it acts as one. This changes how you build and deploy detachments but is pretty clear once you play the game.

 

Damage procedure is to remove models after both players have finished activating their models (alternating activations). No more alpha strike!

 

Simplified but nuanced attack and damage system involving d6 and d12s! Units will have a damage vs big and a damage vs small stat to represent weapons.

 

Stratagem/Powers deck that draws cards based on the detachments you purchased. Really adds back some of the granular flavor of command points and psychic shenanigins.

 

System seems best at a 2-3000 40k point value equivalent. Points seem pretty balanced too. Some stats are hard to see on paper how good they are and need testing understand. Genestealers are very scary!

 

Cool game! We put our first game up on youtube on the Playontabletop channel. Gives an idea of how it works even we messed a few things up

[Silas7]

Armageddon is now a different game than 40k 8th ed. Earlier editions of Armageddon had very few actual concessions for large scape and often were a rules add on rather than a separate game.

 

Big differences include:

 

Detachments act as units more or less. You give an entire detachment an order and it acts as one. This changes how you build and deploy detachments but is pretty clear once you play the game.

 

Damage procedure is to remove models after both players have finished activating their models (alternating activations). No more alpha strike!

 

Simplified but nuanced attack and damage system involving d6 and d12s! Units will have a damage vs big and a damage vs small stat to represent weapons.

 

Stratagem/Powers deck that draws cards based on the detachments you purchased. Really adds back some of the granular flavor of command points and psychic shenanigins.

 

System seems best at a 2-3000 40k point value equivalent. Points seem pretty balanced too. Some stats are hard to see on paper how good they are and need testing understand. Genestealers are very scary!

 

Cool game! We put our first game up on youtube on the Playontabletop channel. Gives an idea of how it works even we messed a few things up. Biotiatan vs Warlord!

 

Could you imagine house ruling the simultaneous model removal for normal 40k? I wonder how that would affect the game and if alternating activation would even be needed at that point.

[duz_]

Let's not digress into hypothetical rules discussions :tu:

[rcoon]

Brigade in 2K points with a bit of everything. I like all the slots!

[Shamansky]

I like 1750 points and lower, my favourite is 1500 points. Restrictive, but lets a player think of most optimal army compositions, and not simply throw every damn piece of cheese into the roster.

[Exilyth]

I like to play 500-2000 points games with a combined arms list (4-6 infantry squads, some HWTs, some sentinels, some tanks, some arty, one flyer).

This army composition requires me to use two transport boxes, so it does not see as much play as I would like to get as transporting is difficult and getting the army out of and back into the transports is rather time consuming. It's the main reason I play my marines most of the time.

 

Sometimes I play as tank company - the reduced model count makes it easier to handle, but lack of infantry screens makes this list autolose against armies which can get a 1st turn charge.

 

 

Thankfully, guard play is relatively straight forward, so the most time consuming parts are performing movement and measuring & rolling for shooting.

Putting page marker flags into the codex to mark important pages (e.g. stratagems, regiment specific rules) makes looking up stuff relatively fast.

 

Except for some wishlisting (e.g. rough riders, rough rider HQ, sentinel HQ being added to the codex) I've got no clue how to improve my experience.

 

No wait, scratch that - having easily available up to date rules documents which don't require carrying around multiple books + the same number of FAQ & errata printouts (or an electronic device) would greatly reduce time spend looking up the most recent version of a rule. Having rules which are more tightly written, leaving less room for interpetation would prevent many a rules dispute.

 

Maybe using a metal case + magnetized bases instead of foam trays would hasten my transport issues, but vehicles have no bases.

Being able to rent a locker at the FLGS certainly would help, but my FLGS does not offer such (not enough space as is).