Dracos Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 This is a selfish post but hopefully we can get some positive tactical discussion going that can help others. I'm going to post my proposed list to give context for my purposes. Another person might have better ideas but for myself I won't budge off a Double Battalion build. Am I better with twin Invictor Warsuits? or sucking it up and falling into the Assault Centurion camp? I want the Warsuits to work with my Primaris Infantry heavy concept ... and honestly I'm afraid Centurions (and maybe Aggressors) are going to get a points nerf come Chapter Approved and would like to future proof the army a bit. I'm just not seeing them being able to apply the same kind of pressure Assault Centurions can. I do have the Aggressors units and they are similar ... but not. aAny thoughts are appreciated I keep waffling back and forth on the Centurions. ++ First Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [54 PL, 934pts] ++ **Chapter Selection**: Warhawks <Raven Guard> + HQ + Korvin Kestrel <Kayvaan Shrike> [8 PL, 130pts] Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]: Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine + Troops + Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]: Haywire Mine, 4x Incursor, Incursor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword + Elites + Reiver Squad [4 PL, 80pts]: Bolt Carbine . 4x Reiver . Reiver Sergeant . . Bolt Carbine/Heavy Bolt Pistol + Fast Attack + Inceptor Squad [14 PL, 205pts]: Assault bolter x2, 4x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant + Heavy Support + Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts] . Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak . 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts] . Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak . 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak ++ Second Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [56 PL, 1,066pts] ++ **Chapter Selection**: Warhawks <Raven Guard> + HQ + Lieutenant in Phobos Armor [5 PL, 81pts]: Occulus Bolt Carbine and Bolt Pistol: Grav-chute, Master-crafted occulus bolt rifle Primaris Chaplain [4 PL, 77pts]: Absolver bolt pistol, Crozius arcanum, Rosarius + Troops + Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts]: Haywire Mine, 4x Incursor, Incursor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Stalker Bolt Rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword + Elites + Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 185pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher Aggressor Squad [10 PL, 185pts]: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber ++ Total: [110 PL, 2,000pts] ++ ... and if I use Cents over Invictors I can tag a Phobos Librarian in place of the Phobos Lt or Phobos Cpt I think Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 This is a selfish post but hopefully we can get some positive tactical discussion going that can help others. I'm going to post my proposed list to give context for my purposes. Another person might have better ideas but for myself I won't budge off a Double Battalion build. Am I better with twin Invictor Warsuits? or sucking it up and falling into the Assault Centurion camp? I want the Warsuits to work with my Primaris Infantry heavy concept ... and honestly I'm afraid Centurions (and maybe Aggressors) are going to get a points nerf come Chapter Approved and would like to future proof the army a bit. I'm just not seeing them being able to apply the same kind of pressure Assault Centurions can. I do have the Aggressors units and they are similar ... but not. aAny thoughts are appreciated I keep waffling back and forth on the Centurions. Well the good news is cents serve different purposes to invictors and even a little different to aggressors. I am not sure your better off, just depends on the situation, but not any worse off either. Invictors are fast and apply huge pressure at undercosted pts per wound with forward deployment option at NO cp cost. If taking the ironhail AC and I think you should at least consider taking 1 then they can also contribute from the backfield. Very flexible very expendible decently shooty too. Cents are stupid slow. If you don't get an optimal setup for them they won't contribute much or even as early as 2 warsuits. Aggressors don't have great synergy with RG except for the deployment options. That said they are good and very cheap so your list has nearly twice what you could afford in cents. Was that convincing enough brother? Anyway I think the question would really be do you want warsuits or a pair of flyers? Oh and lastly I don't see cents going up in cost. They only seem undercosted for us and WS. Everyone else they're appropriately costed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5411326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 Flyers? I Have 2 Xiphons and ouch the points are something. Not overcosted but cut into the Infantry theme harder than the Invictors do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5411340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I mean talons or hawks really. Expendable pressure units to present immediate threat in a similar manner as warsuits. I tend to look at them the same. Not the exact same role maybe but they still draw heat from other units you can't take more than 3 of and they're fairy durable for their cost. At least that's my thought process. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5411376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I rocked an Invictor at the last ITC i played with my BA. The BA played in a VERY similar way to the RG i intend playing and I can tell you that the invictor was absolutely amazing. What an awesome unit. Wonderful distraction where necessary, and when it was left alone, caused some serious grief. I think it supports the rest of the RG really, really well without the need to put in additional CP. If youre using VanVets (which I really, really think are amazing) they synergize exceptionally well. If youre using backline dreads like contemptors, then you're also working well to take off pressure. What your thoughts on the Reivers? I'm not sold on them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5411436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 While I have several of them on sprue, I still struggle to fit them into a list without limiting them to a turn 1/2 fire magnet/distraction/first strike unit. They are, if deployed in flamer threat range / CC range, an urgent target to take out. They are not meant to weather substantial AT, so they will die first or second turn if there is nothing else to take the pressure off them. I've faced an IH Invictor, that pretty much proved the point for taking just one (or two) of them - I had turn 1, and half of my AT plus the chaff fire that had no other targets were enough to blow it up. And the rest blew up a contemptor in the same turn. In Dracos' list for example, there are no other vehicles - any AT on the board will target the warsuits. With that amount of Concealed Deployment, he could lock stuff in CC that would have killed it, or have the warsuits charge stuff to stay safe (or at least reduce return fire). But if such a list has second turn without explicitly deploying for it, an entire army would be in range to take them out, which should be enough given it's vulnerable to S7 and has no invul. Which is why I'm even considering it as a back midfield kinda unit. Take the autocannons, put it outside of the deployment zone but not anywhere near charge range. Make the best out of the RG stealth effect to keep it alive a bit longer, attract a bit less fire, and plink away at backfield units, as well as threatening units that come to claim midfield objectives.Granted, it doesn't sound like a stellar way to use it, but I'd be inclined to try it when I come around to building them. Which might be a while, since I still have to build/paint 4 squads of infantry for next tournament. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5411473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think at the end of the day it's a distraction carnifex, and that's all it will ever be - in a perfect scenario. I think what Major is saying is super valid - target saturation. If your whole army is infantry and you run 1-2 Invictors, you're just serving up an efficient target for your opponent. If you have some backfield Mortis Contemptors (for example), that they are drawing fire for, that could prove valuable. I think its definitely a unit that is significantly stronger when you have turn 1 versus not. I think there are arguments to be made for both Centurions and Aggressors being better in terms of going second. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5411660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 My take.. In a non or less aggressive list with only invictors they are a fex. Meant to draw fire away from other key units such as eliminators. That alone would not be enough value but the concealed positions pushes them over due to the potential for t1 assault. In a full aggressive list they are target saturation. Anyway my point is lack of other mech really doesn't change their effectiveness when taken for these roles unlike non concealed position mech where that typically would apply. Like Morticon said. I have a bro who runs them in BAs where he runs 3 as his only mech. But the pressure they bring when combined with 15 death co a unit of sang guard and smash captains plus cqc scouts is just immense. At that point it doesn't matter if they validate anti tank weapons or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5411731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluflash Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I run two with auto-cannon upfront. With concealed deploy I try to dump them behind the center of table LOS block in ITC missions so if I go second they got get popped right away. They typically move up to support my Grav-Cents and Chapter Master, so even with that move they're still quite accurate and the bonus -1 to all shooting in Dev doctrine lets them punch a bit harder. I also run 2x Quad Las Contemptor Mortis in the back line. It's not full target saturation but my opponent has to make a choice on shooting the cents, the forward Invictors, or the back of table Mortis. They also can serve as a useful counter-punch if my Cents get charged.I like them. They have enough move/shooting range/melee flex to be useful anywhere, enough T/Sv to stick around a while, a great points per wound ratio, and still cheap enough to not care about sacrificing if necessary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5411786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 This thread has made me question whether i should deploy Aggressors or Vanguard Veterans (with Master of Ambush) forward with my Invictor warsuits. Has anyone had any experience with Aggressors or Vanguard veterans in this role? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 My thoughts were that the Invictors would draw fire from the Aggressors who are the bigger threat in my mind. They do do without needing CP or a WT to get them into place. Thing is though for a CP and equal or less points the Centurions do the same but are more survivable. Warsuits having the advantage of multiple effecting locations, one for each Aggressor squad. I’m really looking at making the middle of the board a bloodbath for anyone wanting to go after Objectives there. Say two Objectives midfield. From T1 I can have 5 Incursors with Haywire mines stacked with a Warsuit and the 5 Aggressors arriving at least T2 with 5 Intercessors advancing out of the Deployment Zone right in their heels .... or I take a unit of 4 or 5 Assault Centurions and kick face in drawing attention from the Objectives. As I’ve typed this out it occurs to me as an opponent I might try to avoid the Centurions and stay focused on mission. Damn tough call given all the clamoring and praise for the Centurions so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 This thread has made me question whether i should deploy Aggressors or Vanguard Veterans (with Master of Ambush) forward with my Invictor warsuits. Has anyone had any experience with Aggressors or Vanguard veterans in this role? Once again, I have as BA - but functionally the same in terms of Wings of Fire (deploy 9" away and charge 3d6") or Forlorn Fury (The 2CP version for DC only of the 1CP RG infiltrate for any infantry). With a Chaplain having the Ambush trait, you will always get the rerolls. Add transhuman and 3++ and you're really doing solidly with the Vanguard. I honestly believe theyre a catch all unit and I would strongly, strongly suggest for RG players to consider them as a great utility unit. Supported by, or supporting the Invictors they do really, really well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Cheers for the feedback. I guess it'll have to depend on whether i need to wipe out a screen unit for T2, or whether i need to jump over and bring something big down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Consider that since RG have the option of deploying 9" away, and then moving 12" - you're likely to hop and get the juicy stuff quite easily!! And can do so with the Chaplain support .Rerolls + Whirlwind more than makes up for the loss of initial impact the "regular" (non-BA) marines have - couple with Hammer of Wrath, and you're sailing. FYI - i rock 10 shields, and 5 fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 Wish I could benefit from that kind of advice but not using FIrstborn units and GW is still keeping melee jump units out of the hands of Primaris. Shame they won't give Reivers a 12" fly move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Consider that since RG have the option of deploying 9" away, and then moving 12" - you're likely to hop and get the juicy stuff quite easily!! And can do so with the Chaplain support . Rerolls + Whirlwind more than makes up for the loss of initial impact the "regular" (non-BA) marines have - couple with Hammer of Wrath, and you're sailing. FYI - i rock 10 shields, and 5 fists. i’m rocking 4 hammers, 4 shields (not on the hammers). I think what i might do is deploy the aggressors with master of ambush and use infiltrate to give the vanguard veterans a head start before turn 1. Coupled with the invictors, i reckon the aggressors will also give the opponent something to think about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Keep all your options open. VVs don't really have an analogue though except maybe a smash captain. So I agree we definitely want at least one unit. I also prefer 4 hammers along with 8 shields. Infiltrate is the preferred option for them, IF you opponent doesn't have screens OR if they mess up and leave a corridor. Thats why its good to practice with adjusting terrain (if allowed). 12" from a board edge is what I like to aim for. Now this is less important if not playing missions like CA 2018 but still matters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Wish I could benefit from that kind of advice but not using FIrstborn units and GW is still keeping melee jump units out of the hands of Primaris. Shame they won't give Reivers a 12" fly move. Fair play!!! Then its defs a different game for you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 IMO the only way RG should run this warsuit is with autocannons. You can't always go first so I think you need weapons that also work going 2nd. As said by others, the warsuit is tough to crack at range with its 2+ save and the autocannon is fairly good against a wide range of targets. Just today I was using my warsuits to murder eldar bikers and flyers. The thing is also quite fast and can be a surprise charge threat into the midfield (deployed far away going second) if you have a character(you should) with the Swift and Deadly warlord trait. The is great for 130ish points. That comes to 10 points per wound at t6. Crazy efficient! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 I just wish it had more attacks in melee. It also doesn't have the punch shooting or hand to hand the Centurions have. I am, however done worrying about them screaming AT weapon come hit me because anything that is shooting the Warsuit will be plinking 4W Centurions with equal efficiency. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 I just wish it had more attacks in melee. It also doesn't have the punch shooting or hand to hand the Centurions have. I am, however done worrying about them screaming AT weapon come hit me because anything that is shooting the Warsuit will be plinking 4W Centurions with equal efficiency. I respectfully disagree! Centurions have access to transhuman physiology and can fully benefit from the chapter trait making them quite a bit more durable than warsuits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5412660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaleron Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Been having a serious debate of sorts in regards on how to equip my dual Invictors. I am leaning towards the Autocannon for Flexibility, ambush them decently close but if im not getting the first turn the Flamer feels like a bit of a waste, what have you guys found to be the most effective in terms of loadout? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5413328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 I just wish it had more attacks in melee. It also doesn't have the punch shooting or hand to hand the Centurions have. I am, however done worrying about them screaming AT weapon come hit me because anything that is shooting the Warsuit will be plinking 4W Centurions with equal efficiency. I respectfully disagree! Centurions have access to transhuman physiology and can fully benefit from the chapter trait making them quite a bit more durable than warsuits. Not to mention hammers are literally half as effective. Same for aggressors. But I'm not trying to sell cents.. I'd hate to see them go up in cost. They suck guys nothing to see here.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5413346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Been having a serious debate of sorts in regards on how to equip my dual Invictors. I am leaning towards the Autocannon for Flexibility, ambush them decently close but if im not getting the first turn the Flamer feels like a bit of a waste, what have you guys found to be the most effective in terms of loadout? The ironhail AC is the more well rounded choice for reasons you mentioned. It's better in the non optimal scenario and still OK on the optimal. In RG it's also much needed ranged medium str weaponry. I'd stick with that unless your doing something like LR marksmen. Even when I run discos where their flamer is D2 I can say the AC is typically preferred. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5413347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 Been having a serious debate of sorts in regards on how to equip my dual Invictors. I am leaning towards the Autocannon for Flexibility, ambush them decently close but if im not getting the first turn the Flamer feels like a bit of a waste, what have you guys found to be the most effective in terms of loadout? Magnets! Then you can mix and match :D Depends how you wanna run them Mine have flamers to turn up the heat T1 I haven't actually played my list yet though so can't comment on effectiveness A friend has had good success with running the dakka versions as UMs and IHs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359340-invictor-warsuit-competitive/#findComment-5413579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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