FLG

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I for one do not believe everything I read and hear. That said based upon listening to all the FLG podcasts over the past couple months wow what do they have against Imperial Space Marines in general? Convince me otherwise .

[Panzer]

 

Convince me otherwise

 

No.

 

Does this thread have any constructive value or is it just you complaining about another group in the community?

[toaae]

...wow what do they have against Imperial Space Marines in general?

Nothing. Dont you know? They hate Tau. /s

 

In all honesty, you're just misinformed. The people at Frontline Gaming just want a balanced game, and there's a lot of fear in the competitive community that Space Marines are over the top. I won't speculate on what the guys who do playtesting know, but for all the other contributors to the various podcasts under their umbrella, they can see the same numbers everyone can: Space Marines are appearing dominant so far.

 

And it isn't just the Frontline Gaming people. Goonhammer has speculated that Space Marines are too much, various non-FLGPN podcasts have, many members of this board and various others, the competitive subreddit. You've just decided to focus on this one part of the community, for some reason.

[Morticon]

Quick note to all, 

 

if this thread is going to survive past a few more posts, please keep all thoughts, observations and comments constructive. 

There's nothing wrong with the OP asking this question and critically examining various aspects/groups within the gaming community, but we must all  remember to do it with consideration, thought, objectivity and evidence.  

At the end of the day, any gaming group will be trying to grow the community in some way -it's up to us to share what we dont agree with, explain why, and perhaps even offer counter thoughts.

  

[GrinNfool]

I for one do not believe everything I read and hear. That said based upon listening to all the FLG podcasts over the past couple months wow what do they have against Imperial Space Marines in general? Convince me otherwise .

I have no reason to try to convince you of anything, if you don't like their pod casts then by all means don't listen to it.  Not every group in the community needs to see eye to eye with you and you should do what makes you happy, its a hobby/game enjoy it :) .  Honestly listening to people of differing opinions is how we improve how we view things in the first place by trying to see another's view point, nothing is worse for a person than living in an echo chamber where everyone agrees with them.

[MARK0SIAN]

Personally, I can see where the OP is coming from. The problem for me is the double standards. None of these groups/podcasts (including FLG) have been this vocal/vociferous in their calls when it’s been other factions that have been over performing.

 

Eldar in one incarnation or another for example have been over performing in the meta since the start but there’s nowhere near this level of backlash against them. It’s particularly galling when it’s coming from people who’ve run the cheesy builds at events too as it seems like sour grapes that their list now has a counter.

 

It’s hard to come away without thinking that, basically, it’s ok for anyone but Space Marines to be top tier or over perform.

[GrinNfool]

Personally, I can see where the OP is coming from. The problem for me is the double standards. None of these groups/podcasts (including FLG) have been this vocal/vociferous in their calls when it’s been other factions that have been over performing.

 

Eldar in one incarnation or another for example have been over performing in the meta since the start but there’s nowhere near this level of backlash against them. It’s particularly galling when it’s coming from people who’ve run the cheesy builds at events too as it seems like sour grapes that their list now has a counter.

 

It’s hard to come away without thinking that, basically, it’s ok for anyone but Space Marines to be top tier or over perform.

Totally get you, I think part of it is marines are super numerous, everyone has them.  With Castellan and Ynnari, not everyone had those, and the % of players running those at a tournament meant unless you too were running a cheesy list, you would probably lose and wouldn't deal with them more than 1-2 games of a tournament if that.  Marines being so common means you will run into them pretty often, even more often if you are running a cheesy list yourself to try to win.  I think for marine players its easy to overlook that to your average non marine army, you being ultras, the other guy being white scars, and the 3rd person they fight being Iron hands, is playing the same match 3 games in a row.  I think to a marine player you see another chapter as a different match up, but most non marine armies tackle ANY marine army in a very similar way.  If people wanted to play marine vs marine all the time Horus Heresy would be much more popular than it is. 

 

If we are looking at this objectively no one seemed too upset (aside from the sky as falling panic driven people) until the IH supplement, people were a little worried because marines were popping up more, but nothing crazy was happening.  IH created a pretty big shift from that, in a marine army that was common, and top tier meta.  Many armies do have a hard match up vs the new marine codex in the first place, and the IH just straight made those match ups unwinnable.  Yes that was true for Ynnari and castellan lists as well, but those lists tended to be 1 dimensional, meaning you could game plan around fighting them, letting you tailor a list of units that perform the best.  It might not be optimal but you could have a fighting chance; with several variations of marines being powerful this isn't possible currently meaning you could build full on anti IH, run into sala/WS/IF and auto lose. 

 

Lets be honest about this, most of us aren't out there just to win when we go to a tournament though we are hoping to get a variety of matches with more fun than not.  If we say Castellan and Ynnari were as bad as IH, at least they accounted for a small %, and you could still get some fun games a tournament.  For the armies that just can't win vs marine matchups, if 20-35% of the people who go to a tournament are marines, its going to be a really bad experience for them.  If you knew everytime you went to a tournament you would only fight ynnari and castellan it would have been discouraging.  I don't think anyone wins in a marine v marine meta when the game is as varied as 40k is.  This is the part I think people are reacting to.  You see it as double standards and thats a fair assessment, but for me personally if 1 faction out of the ~22 factions in the game (not counting each space marine chapter) is making up 20-35% of the player base at a tournament the game becomes stale.  You never saw 20-35% of people running the previous broken lists.  I am sure I am not alone in that view point, just as I am sure you are not alone in yours.  I believe they are both reasonable ways to see the situation

[PeteySödes]

Sorry can I get a little context here? Are they just digging on marines on the podcast or was there some ruling I missed?

[Marshal Rohr]

Sorry can I get a little context here? Are they just digging on marines on the podcast or was there some ruling I missed?

It’s a WAAC competitive site that reviews rules and does commentary on the current state of the meta.

[PeteySödes]

 

Sorry can I get a little context here? Are they just digging on marines on the podcast or was there some ruling I missed?

It’s a WAAC competitive site that reviews rules and does commentary on the current state of the meta.

Heh yea I know the broader context. I was just curious was this post was driven by some new thing.

 

For my two cents I wish they would decide what they want to be, a store, commentary, or a “professional” organization. It seems squicky to me the amounts of what I consider conflicts of interest. They have a at least one official playtester on staff and generally used to get others I the podcast (I stopped listening) and the eps I heard would “*wink wink I can’t say anything but buy marines *wink wink”. All the while running the largest tournament format in the states, and still competing in the scene.

[Prot]

I listen to a lot of the competitive content out there as well. 

 

Honestly when it comes to FLG, I did not really see them as anti-marine. When you say "FLG", I assume you mean Reece? He's definitely the most vocal. Most of his sentences start with, "I can't go into to detail BUT...."

 

Usually what follows is purely his opinion and warnings or misgivings about something he's playtested.

 

Truth be told he's been wrong a lot. Numerous times he's said, "this is going to change the meta" and it doesn't.... at all. (IE: punchy AdMech bots changing the meta, etc, etc.) Or the effect is so minor it hardly registers on a broader scale.  Some times we all look at things in a personal light even when we are doing our best to be neutral. 

 

Personally I like Reece. He reminds me of myself. I don't think he likes to play the strongest army in any meta, and I think he gets worked up when he's talking about the game going in a direction he'd rather not see. But on Marines? I've heard him say negative things about Iron Hands, but aside from "Marines are soooo good", I haven't heard him really say they went to far for the majority. He often checks himself with the caveat that they still die like marines. 

 

My own experiences seem to match up. Just the difference is my Marines aren't pushovers any more and they can hurt something now.  Iron Hands is something else though. And he warned about it... numerous times. He said not only was it going to be too strong, but too easy to play.

 

I think most of us would agree he was right.

 

I've personally never been a fan of their missions. I really find them boring but I understand a lot of people in the hyper competitive environment use them as a measuring stick. We also have to remember this is the environment from which most of what FLG as a group says is "OP" or not good enough. 

 

At the end of the day he's really just another one of us. An overly enthusiastic 40K super fan/player that has an opinion. I think we're all old enough/smart enough to sort through it and determine if we buy into it or if it's just not ringing true to us. 

[Cleon]

Also, not wanting this to be a personal attack in any way, but unless there is a serious coincidence in names (I can't imagine there being many people using the moniker 'Black Blow Fly'), it'd be a little more open if the OP criticising one podcast group advertised he was a columnist at BoLs in his same post - just for context.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/bols-masthead

[MARK0SIAN]

At the end of the day he's really just another one of us. An overly enthusiastic 40K super fan/player that has an opinion. I think we're all old enough/smart enough to sort through it and determine if we buy into it or if it's just not ringing true to us.

I have a slight issue with this as he’s not just like the rest of us here, because (and I mean no offence to anyone here) his opinion carries weight. It carries weight with the community and with GW themselves or he wouldn’t be an official playtester.

 

If he can’t be both accurate and objective with his assessments then that’s bad for everyone’s hobby whether you play competively or not.

[Panzer]

Also, not wanting this to be a personal attack in any way, but unless there is a serious coincidence in names (I can't imagine there being many people using the moniker 'Black Blow Fly'), it'd be a little more open if the OP criticising one podcast group advertised he was a columnist at BoLs in his same post - just for context.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/bols-masthead

He is the same person. He said so before. That's also all I'm going to say about him since it's offtopic - snip -

[Prot]

Guys, this isn't a personal agenda forum. Please let's keep the comments non-personal in nature. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Some of my issues with these podcasts was some information that was presented was wrong or misleading whether intentional or not. Also I get the feeling they knew the faq content before it was released.

[CaptainMarsh]

The issue is this: Space Marines are the most popular faction. When the book is middling, you see a smattering of results and they aren't a problem. When the book is fantastic, and then you add in supplements, that huge mass of players suddenly becomes a major, major issue from a competitive standpoint. Will the meta adapt? Yes, though I suspect it will have problems unseen before. Especially if they ever start re-releasing codices with the same sort of rework as the Space Marine codex? Very much so. But atm I understand the concern.

[Azekai]

So people that don't like the new direction that 8th is taking with the new Codex: Space Marines automatically have an ax to grind and hate space marines? Come now.

[MARK0SIAN]

The issue is this: Space Marines are the most popular faction. When the book is middling, you see a smattering of results and they aren't a problem. When the book is fantastic, and then you add in supplements, that huge mass of players suddenly becomes a major, major issue from a competitive standpoint. Will the meta adapt? Yes, though I suspect it will have problems unseen before. Especially if they ever start re-releasing codices with the same sort of rework as the Space Marine codex? Very much so. But atm I understand the concern.

The meta is saved the trouble of adapting if it moans enough to get marines nerfed back down to being useless. There’s a good case for the Iron hands nerfs but I’m betting the complaints won’t stop there.

 

Space Marines shouldn’t be made to suffer just because they’ve got more player or it’ll basically create an unofficial rule/policy that means Space Marines can never be allowed to have a top tier book.

 

I often think tournaments and the competitive meta is allowed to have too big an influence on the overall game.

[MARK0SIAN]

So people that don't like the new direction that 8th is taking with the new Codex: Space Marines automatically have an ax to grind and hate space marines? Come now.

It’s not really a new direction, it’s a slight variation on the existing model and we don’t even know if it’s going to be rolled out for other factions yet.

 

It only looks like a new direction for armies that were high end previously. If someone was (for example) a Grey Knights or other low tier army player before, then there’s actually very little difference between what Marines just got and what Eldar, GSC, Orks and others got in their codexes. Namely the tools to build an army against which you just can’t compete.

 

Now I believe a lot of the complaints are genuine and valid, but I also believe a lot of it is from people upset that their armies are no longer top of the tree.

[Gederas]

The issue is this: Space Marines are the most popular faction. When the book is middling, you see a smattering of results and they aren't a problem. When the book is fantastic, and then you add in supplements, that huge mass of players suddenly becomes a major, major issue from a competitive standpoint. Will the meta adapt? Yes, though I suspect it will have problems unseen before. Especially if they ever start re-releasing codices with the same sort of rework as the Space Marine codex? Very much so. But atm I understand the concern.

The meta is saved the trouble of adapting if it moans enough to get marines nerfed back down to being useless. There’s a good case for the Iron hands nerfs but I’m betting the complaints won’t stop there.

 

Space Marines shouldn’t be made to suffer just because they’ve got more player or it’ll basically create an unofficial rule/policy that means Space Marines can never be allowed to have a top tier book.

 

I often think tournaments and the competitive meta is allowed to have too big an influence on the overall game.

I mean, isn't that how 40k has always been? Marines, being the 'starter' army are never allowed to be anything more than "average"? :lol:

 

I am in agreement that the tournaments and the competitive meta have FAR too much of an influence on the game. It's not healthy for the game in general.

[Brother Tyler]

If you have a question about the views of any external website or podcast, you should address those questions at the site, not here.