New Mephiston/Psychic awakening p3

[Blindhamster]

In mephiston's most recent book there was a passage about primaris reivers having to pull a brother off an ork. Unless that was just that particular reiver succumbing to the red thirst

 

which book was that? its not in blood of sanguinius or revenant crusade, neither of those books include primaris.

[NiftyVT]

Cant wait for this! Going to get him built asap and then finish him up along side the marine side of my Wake the Dead box.

[Panzer]

Sounds more like the typical Red Thirst outburst.

[Djangomatic82]

I'm really not expecting much from P3, but when they said it was supplement level for P2, it got me a little hopeful. Personally, I recognize that we need something added to our CT that is useful for vehicles and If the BT's get something beyond their melee CT, I'd say our chances are improving. 

If we get something, I hope its relatively fluffy, maybe upping our non-primaris infantry and bikers by 1W+A to represent the much faster rate BA lineage SM can refill ranks due to the 1 year insaguination method, as opposed to the 2-6 years of a regular space marine.

[appiah4]

Here's my prediction for PA3: Primaris Death Company.

[Blindhamster]

Here's my prediction for PA3: Primaris Death Company.

Too soon I reckon. I've heard a few people suggest that there is a desire to avoid unique units for chapters now too.

[Pathstrider]

Here's my prediction for PA3: Primaris Death Company.

I suppose there could be a chance for this as a stratagem along the lines of the primaris veteran one from Vigilus Defiant.

[Majkhel]

Here's my prediction for PA3: Primaris Death Company.

That's a looong shot. Look at the current DC - they are flexible with multiple weapon and loadout options - all the things that Primaris range does not introduce. That would be a HUGE leap in the approach to using Primaris.

I'd sooner expect mixed squads like the Deathwatch has - so that you could include a Reiver, an Aggressor, an Inceptor, or a Tactical marine into a DC squad.

[Panzer]

Here's my prediction for PA3: Primaris Death Company.

 

(x) doubt

 

The leaked list doesn't contain any more unit releases for us other than Mephiston.

[RedemptionNL]

Not to mention that the leaked release list on page 2 is spot on so far, and there's no mention of any new models besides Mephiston. So unless it's a stratagem like Death Visions of Sanguinius where you can give a squad of Primaris the Black Rage rule and Death Company keyword, I wouldn't expect anything in that regards.

[Blood Angel Scout]

 

 

In mephiston's most recent book there was a passage about primaris reivers having to pull a brother off an ork. Unless that was just that particular reiver succumbing to the red thirst

which book was that? its not in blood of sanguinius or revenant crusade, neither of those books include primaris.

 

It's revenant crusade, opening chapters are dealing with orks then off to the necron world

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Here's my prediction for PA3: Primaris Death Company.

Too soon I reckon. I've heard a few people suggest that there is a desire to avoid unique units for chapters now too.

 

I really hope it stays that way tbh. Primaris Death Company are boring. Let them get crazy and lose themselves to the red thirst. I think there's a lot of story line there and overall a better story. 

 

I think we're still several years away from unique units and bling on everything. The first Vox cast talked specifically about it too. And I'm okay with it. 

 

I would like to see Mephiston get the Aura bubble that seems to be a consistent thing with just about all characters now.

[Indefragable]

 

 

Here's my prediction for PA3: Primaris Death Company.

Too soon I reckon. I've heard a few people suggest that there is a desire to avoid unique units for chapters now too.

 

I really hope it stays that way tbh. Primaris Death Company are boring. Let them get crazy and lose themselves to the red thirst. I think there's a lot of story line there and overall a better story. 

 

I think we're still several years away from unique units and bling on everything. The first Vox cast talked specifically about it too. And I'm okay with it. 

 

I would like to see Mephiston get the Aura bubble that seems to be a consistent thing with just about all characters now.

 

When you say there's a lot story line there and overall a better story...what do you mean?

 

...where do you see the BA being 5 years from now? 10 years? Is every SM chapter just folded into the main book and Guilliman quietly purges everyone who does wear his Trademarked brand of pants?

 

Debate for a different thread, but I am curious on your take of a "better story" for having the Death Company become a thing of the past.

[Blindhamster]

Focusing on the red thirst like in heresy could still be a great way to go.

[Pathstrider]

Focusing on the red thirst like in heresy could still be a great way to go.

I think there is something to this - I think there could be a lot of mileage in Primaris being immune to Black Rage but being more susceptible to red thirst induced barbarity. Both reflecting the lack of Sanguinius' direct influence.

 

Separately, my other fear is that the Death Company get a nerf - I feel like the doubling up of attacks on the charge from black rage and shock assualt is something GW might remove (We might see if anything changes with World eaters in PA2)

[Aothaine]

For this year, we are lucky if it’s anything more than Mephiston + some type of goodies like a few stratagems, perhaps a relic or two. Even that is a stretch.

The big one will be CA2019, I’m hoping for point drops on SG and the Baal predator myself, among some few other tweaks in points.

 

I could see a new codex in 2020 though. The book might be foreshadowing it.

 

RE combat oriented primaris: isn’t that what Reavers are there for?

 

I agree. I think it will be more like Calgar's release. You'll get a few special rules and the main rulebook will be a 2020 release.

[Indefragable]

It's definitely annoying that oftentimes GW can't think of anything to do with the BA beyond "fall to Black Rage" just like they can't think of anything to do with the Dark Angels beyond "ditch Imperial allies to hunt for the Fallen instead." Don't get me wrong, that's definitely grating.

 

But the twin curses is so much of what defines the 40k BA. Especially since it so clearly distinguishes them from the IX Legion when Sanguinius was around. They went from such hopeful exemplars of all that could be good in the Pax Imperialis to more secretive, almost ashamed of themselves warriors who--in spite of that secret shame--still strive every day to be those examplars anyways. And so often they fail, but they never stop trying. That's what I freakin' LOVE about the Blood Angels and why, to me, they are the most interesting aspect of the entire setting.

 

Look at what happens to Legions who's Primarchs are confirmed dead:

-Sons of Horus: so ashamed of their lord's perceived failure, they completely rename themselves, become something entirely different, and Horus' own favored son, Abbadon, basically pisses on the grave of his genesire

-Night Lords: scatter to the wind and become even more self-serving

-Iron Hands: even during the HH, they don't really know how to handle it, breaking off into multiple different approaches, some fighting shadow wars, some going rogue, some going home to hold council on what they should do....it's compelling because it's so real and tragic. Anyway you cut it, though, they all take on an evermore "flesh is weak" mindset which is either a twisting of their genesire's desires, or a deliberate middle-finger (kinda sorta like the SoH above) to him.

-Blood Angels: suffer a permanent debilitating schizophrenic effect that becomes encoded in their own genes. It can strike at any moment without warning, thought it seems to most often occur when they doing what they do best: rippin' n' tearin.'.

 

What the first three have in common is that they seek to distance themselves from their Primarch in some way shape or form. The BA, in contrast, what nothing more to be as close to him as possible, in deed or spirit, yet in doing that, they risk becoming monsters. Imagine having that hanging over your head every day. Imagine if in trying to save a village from bandits, you may end up slaughtering the very villagers you are trying to save since you can't control yourself. And they saddle up anyways.

 

Look, we all have our things we like about "our dudes," so I won't crush others' dreams, but I just see a removal of the Black Rage as something disastrous. Are there plot lines to be written about how Primaris seem more resistant to it? Sure. But then when it does come up, it's even more uncontrollable and the Primaris know how to handle it even less. There's some intrigue there alright.

[Blindhamster]

Thing is. The secret shame is the red thirst. Not the black rage. The red thirst is the tragic part they have to fight against and the thing that makes them monsters.

 

The black rage makes them think they're sanguinius in his final hours and die a premature death.

 

The latter is tragic as it's a way even the most heroic blood angel can suddenly end up useless (beyond being a shock troop one last time) and then dead, one way or another.

 

The black rage is an important part because of its resonance with the great Angels death. But the res thirst is the struggle, the constant battle against a base, monstrous desire.

 

Take away the black rage and you still have the noble vampire Angels, warriors with a dual nature.

 

Take the red thirst away and you have noble warriors that know they may one day go mad, but lack the drive to strive to be more than their instincts scream at them.

 

Black rage also traditionally strikes outside of combat, usually in the hours leading up to it. The red thirst is the one that they have to struggle to keep in check during the fight.

[Djangomatic82]

It's definitely annoying that oftentimes GW can't think of anything to do with the BA beyond "fall to Black Rage" just like they can't think of anything to do with the Dark Angels beyond "ditch Imperial allies to hunt for the Fallen instead." Don't get me wrong, that's definitely grating.

 

But the twin curses is so much of what defines the 40k BA. Especially since it so clearly distinguishes them from the IX Legion when Sanguinius was around. They went from such hopeful exemplars of all that could be good in the Pax Imperialis to more secretive, almost ashamed of themselves warriors who--in spite of that secret shame--still strive every day to be those examplars anyways. And so often they fail, but they never stop trying. That's what I freakin' LOVE about the Blood Angels and why, to me, they are the most interesting aspect of the entire setting.

 

Look at what happens to Legions who's Primarchs are confirmed dead:

-Sons of Horus: so ashamed of their lord's perceived failure, they completely rename themselves, become something entirely different, and Horus' own favored son, Abbadon, basically pisses on the grave of his genesire

-Night Lords: scatter to the wind and become even more self-serving

-Iron Hands: even during the HH, they don't really know how to handle it, breaking off into multiple different approaches, some fighting shadow wars, some going rogue, some going home to hold council on what they should do....it's compelling because it's so real and tragic. Anyway you cut it, though, they all take on an evermore "flesh is weak" mindset which is either a twisting of their genesire's desires, or a deliberate middle-finger (kinda sorta like the SoH above) to him.

-Blood Angels: suffer a permanent debilitating schizophrenic effect that becomes encoded in their own genes. It can strike at any moment without warning, thought it seems to most often occur when they doing what they do best: rippin' n' tearin.'.

 

What the first three have in common is that they seek to distance themselves from their Primarch in some way shape or form. The BA, in contrast, what nothing more to be as close to him as possible, in deed or spirit, yet in doing that, they risk becoming monsters. Imagine having that hanging over your head every day. Imagine if in trying to save a village from bandits, you may end up slaughtering the very villagers you are trying to save since you can't control yourself. And they saddle up anyways.

 

Look, we all have our things we like about "our dudes," so I won't crush others' dreams, but I just see a removal of the Black Rage as something disastrous. Are there plot lines to be written about how Primaris seem more resistant to it? Sure. But then when it does come up, it's even more uncontrollable and the Primaris know how to handle it even less. There's some intrigue there alright.

Very well said Frag, I think we are on the same page regarding the BA's appeal.

Considering your point about the Primaris and Black Rage, I "could" see a mechanical implementation similar to the Horus Heresy rule "Day of Sorrow" (When a unit or single model is reduced to half, or less of their starting models/wounds, they have a 5+ FNP).

It would still allow the official lore be that Primaris don't fall, but be a signal to those who pay attention that not everything is kosher, as well as being an interesting meshing of HH rules and the tie that Primaris have to that era with some of them being from then and before.

[Frater Antodeniel]

On the Black Rage subject, what i did like GW to do is to change the Black Rage definition, not as a random curse, but as one that is born of war (this part is thematic, since the Black Rage is Khorne related) and the foresight of it that lead  the curse to become unavoidable for most Blood Angels Astartes (Blood Angels and Successors).

 

--------------------------------

 

What would be interresting in my opinion for GW to change in the Black Rage, is the path that lead to it. I explain...

 

- The Red Thirst, is described as a physical flaw, one that can be describe in the same way as a Drug Addiction. The Blood Angels that suffers from the Red Thirst suffers from it until it is sated (which is very typical of Drug Addiction, and this fact is common knowledge), and should the Astartes fall to it fully without restrain, they loose their sanity and worse (once again a typical effect of Drug Addiction, when people are fully under the effects of the drug).

 

As for those, amongst the Veterans, who learned to master the Red Thirst in some ways, as described in Lore material, it can once again easily be compare to addict peoples that are able to make use of great strenght (far greater than what could be guessed) when they feel the need. Addicts are also able, due to the physical need, to somehow think quicker, even "smarter" than they usualy do, only because their brain is entirely focused on the need and the fastest way to satisfy it.

 

- The Black Rage, on the other hand, is a psychological flaw. It came after Sanguinius death, and is related to the Insanguination process, with the blood of Sanguinius being somehow corrupted by the psychological trauma of the battle for Terra, in the end, the blood of Sanguinius flow in all Blood Angels, due to the Sanguinary Priest process.

 

What is interresting in the Black Rage, is the fact that it act like a PTSD. In the Lore, with the notable example of Captain Tycho, the Black Rage is depicted as a growing madness, which once again can be compared with PTSD, since peoples who suffers from PTSD "flashback" past events and slowly (if not healed "correctly") suffers from paranoia/madness/other mental disorders. And looking at the effect of the Black Rage, with Astartes experiencing the "flashbacks" of the battle for Terra, and believing themselves to be Sanguinius most of the time, if not all.

 

Considering the life of warfare that the Blood Angels experience, their "normaly" Angelic/Human nature, it is worth considering the Black Rage as a PTSD. Also, it does not change the "Khorne Curse"aspec, since being the God of War and the Madness of War incarnate, it make sense that all PTSD are Khorne curses for those who retreat from the battle field and try to live a normal life without warfare.

 

In this way of thought, a Blood Angel who suffer from Black Rage, would present many, growing symptoms of PTSD. It would explain why the more warlike chapters, those who are the most actives tend to have more battle brother that fell to the Black Rage. Also, since the gene-seed are more marked by war, stocking the "stress" of it, is it only normal that those Astartes created using those said gene-seed are more prone to fall to it.

 

When the critical point of PTSD is reached, the last flashback will be a permanent one, that will rob the Astartes of all his sanity as his mind will reshape the reality of the present so that the Astartes will believe himself to be Sanguinius at the events of the battle for Terra.

 

--------------------------------

 

In the end, the Blood Angels are trully cursed,

 

If they do not sate the Red Thirst throught War, they will suffer further from it, but if they give in to it, they will turn into drugged beast. And, if they go to War, they will suffer from PTSD. It think that everyone can see, that when a Blood Angel cannot avoid his fate.

 

 

(EDIT : As i read myself, i see many mistakes, and i want you to remember that i'm a simple french that learned most of his "english" on Internet....so i can make many mistakes^^. I try to correct myself but, be forgivable^^.)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I just think brothers that fall to 5he thirst would be a better "death company" as they become death sworn due to their shame of allowing themselves to fall to the beast inside them.

 

I love Mephiston for he overcame being lost to both and became something more. Now with the "cured" primaris we can look forward to seeing how far battle brothers can fall to the thirst, and what might they do to overcome it.

 

Maybe with Mephiston's new body and new lore he will lead more brothers to follow suit and we will be like the crimson fists where over 50% of the chapter become primaris. We are moving that way anyway. I love the fact the BA are moving closer to their 30k heritage thanks to Cawl.

 

Mephiston stepping through the Rubicon is just icing on the cake. Before long it will be Alphael and Karlean if they survive. Then Dante and all the others.

 

And the stories to be told will be glorious. Unlike some stupid warp trickery that forces an entire company to fall to the black rage.

[Indefragable]

See, I think where most of the griping against the Black Rage comes from is the fact that it's an overplayed hand in the lore.

 

It's supposed to be rare, but terrifyingly powerful. But GW has it happen every damn episode.

 

I don't see how the BA can ever go back to what they were like as the IX Legion....isn't that kind of the whole point? That Sanguinius' death was so traumatic on so many levels that it literally rewrote his entire bloodline's genecode. It is a fate worse than death for him, for in doing so Horus not only killed The Angel, but also cursed his bloodline for all eternity. He wounded him in a way that even Ka'Bhanda could not, altering and changing his sons for all time. It is the ultimate slap in the face, urination-on-the-grave move that shows just depraved Horus had become and what he wouldn't do to his favorite brother to overthrow their father.

 

...but Sanginius won in the long run. Because his sons do not give in. They never stop trying. They never ever stop the quest to better themselves and humanity, even in the face of ever increasing odds and yet another genetic double-edged sword they have to live with every day. It's what makes the BA so freakin' cool. It's what makes Dante the coolest dude in the entire setting, because he's struggled--and overcome--those urges for 1500 freakin' years.

 

From an actual hobbying perspective, the appeal of HH is that you can go back and live in the before times and revel in what the Legion was like when Sanguinius was still around. I am ok with the emphasis on the Black Rage waning in future support, but I think it's a huge mistake to do away with it.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I didnt mean to unravel the thread.

 

For me, it's not just that the rage is over played. It's the focal point of so many BA players and it takes away from what BA really are.

 

Angel's Blade basically met the boiling point for me. I've also want the real focal point to be Red Thirst and not BR.

[Panzer]

Now with the "cured" primaris we can look forward to seeing how far battle brothers can fall to the thirst, and what might they do to overcome it.

 

We know how far brothers can fall to the thirst and if you keep falling there's no "overcoming" it like it's the case with the Black Rage since it physically mutates them into monsters. It's more similar to the Wulfen Curse than anything else. The Knights of Blood already showed first signs of it (redened skin and yellow-ish eyes) since they kept using the Red Thirst to fight back the Black Rage and during their final moments their Chapter Master lifted that secret infront of Seth to convince him that he's on a very dangerous if not completely wrong path.

 

 

That being said, I'd love to see some Primaris suffering quite heavily from the Red Thirst just to give GW a reason to give us a fancy new mutated melee unit. However they need to be at least as fast and durable as Wulfen to have even a slight chance of being viable. If they tend more towards Possessed they'd be pretty useless.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I thought when a marine falls so badly to the thirst he's incarcerated.