Vigilus Ablaze and CSM 1.5 Codex

[Schlitzaf]

Vigilus Ablaze and 1.5 CSM Codex came out and while we all can be agreed on two points;

1) Ablaze was a secret Black Legion Supplement

2) Codex Marines > CSM 1.5 Codex

 

But Ablaze also gave something else, a ton of generic chaos marines specialist detachments. Now I am not arguing that those rules anything comparable to what 2.0 Codex Marines got or that are an appreciable exchange instead of true CSM 2.0 update. But I am just curious given the most common complaints (supplements aside) hear are about, Combat Doctrines, upgraded tactics (which to be noted CSM tactics did changed to affect all characters universally for what little or much that matters) and the reduced price on Tacticals generally not

 

I am curious what is the general opinion on Vigilus Ablaze Specialist detachments, the additional warlord traits, stratagems and otherwise in comparison to the C:SM expanded stratagem list. The reason it’s espacially curious to me is unlike the Vigilus Defiant, most of the specialist detachments for Space Marines were Chapter specific, Vigilus Ablazes Chaos Marines Detachments are not. Or are in general those specialist detachments just blatantly not worth the price of admission? (And somewhat by extension if they did not cost 1CP to access would they be worth cost of admission?)

 

To be clear because I am mostly a loyalist player I don’t have much context for the other side of the metaphorical pond which is why I am asking about this.

[Sonoftherubric21]

The Raptorial Host is good if you design your list with Raptors in mind. (IMHO) Though many would argue raptors still suck even after half a dozen buffs. (drop in points, additional attack, and now strats and a deepstrike all but guaranteed charge turn 2) Though I personally get solid mileage out of a 25 raptor list and a chaos lord dropping in with them for that amazing warlord trait. 

 

And the Havoc detachment is also considered pretty good especially if you are taking several units of havocs and dealing with really big vehicles / knights in your meta. 

 

I actually really like the Possessed one but to do it right you need 30-40 Possessed. Stack buffs and roll up the table for an almost unkillable unit of Possessed. Though they require support to work and its a huge chunk of a list when all is said and done. (often 1000 or more if a 2k list) 

 

The biggest issue in the chaos dex is that both of our troop options are lack-luster for their point costs. Mediocre at best. So Cultist/Marine MSU troops are often used assuming you are sticking mono-dex. Overpriced with weaker rules ATM is not particularly attractive to spam. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Sonoftherubric21

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I like the Devastation Battery, though I've yet had the chance to use it.

[Trevak Dal]

I'm not buying any more chaos related stuff unless and until there are proper World Eaters codex in the vein of the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes and they have awesome models that don't have :cussty rules and aren't half naked/armored gladiator guys looking like those AOS conversions. I want T Visors, i want brutal fighters, not stupid bat'leth things and so much crap on them they couldn't walk through a doorway (or faces or tentacles etc).

[Iron_Within]

Devastation battery works well, particularly for Iron Warriors which is somewhat silly because the only strat they have makes them Iron Warriors...

Devastation Battery with Chain Cannons+VOTLW is quite a good combo at rinsing a target like a sandblaster.

Lascannons are always good.

 

I've had mixed success with the soul forged pack.

 

The main problem that I've had overall with the detachments is they're a bit underwhelming in power level. Which was alright at the time. But then Codex Space Marines came out and I've become a bit salty*. Facing armies of similar power level they make interesting combos

*by a bit, I haven't played a single GW game since it C:SM because I'm so disheartened.

[Trevak Dal]

Yup.

[CrystalSeer]

Devastation battery is mostly interesting for the ability to:

 

A - Buff Lascannons - Re-rolling hits of 1 and Wounds of one is huge for lascannons. Prescience, VotLW, or Black Legion re-roll strategems turn this way up, making you able to re-roll almost everything

 

B -  Break Phasing - for 2cp, you can fire your squad in your opponents movement phase t1. This one is situational, but the potential to nuke something in your opponents turn that they can not stop and doesn't rely on getting t1 is huge.

Edited October 25, 2019 by CrystalSeer

[Iron_Within]

Devastation battery is mostly interesting for the ability to:

 

B -  Break Phasing - for 2cp, you can fire your squad in your opponents movement phase t1. This one is situational, but the potential to nuke something in your opponents turn that they can not stop and doesn't rely on getting t1 is huge.

I never found this one very effective in of itself. 4 Lascannons don't have the power to bring something down with this generally.

Reaper Cannons are "ok" in this, but they're really an offensive weapon rather than defensive due to their range, 24" range is easy to dodge T1.

 

What it is useful for is for mindgames. Deploying the Chain Reaper Havocs out of LOS but with a clear line of fire if they move up can dissuade an opponent and while you can't really kill a Tank with 4 Lascannons easily you can really hurt them, especially if you've given them +1 to hit with a Dark Apostle (as this is at the start of the battle round) and have a Lord nearby.

[techsoldaten]

 

Devastation battery is mostly interesting for the ability to:

 

B -  Break Phasing - for 2cp, you can fire your squad in your opponents movement phase t1. This one is situational, but the potential to nuke something in your opponents turn that they can not stop and doesn't rely on getting t1 is huge.

I never found this one very effective in of itself. 4 Lascannons don't have the power to bring something down with this generally.

Reaper Cannons are "ok" in this, but they're really an offensive weapon rather than defensive due to their range, 24" range is easy to dodge T1.

 

What it is useful for is for mindgames. Deploying the Chain Reaper Havocs out of LOS but with a clear line of fire if they move up can dissuade an opponent and while you can't really kill a Tank with 4 Lascannons easily you can really hurt them, especially if you've given them +1 to hit with a Dark Apostle (as this is at the start of the battle round) and have a Lord nearby.

 

 

While I haven't screwed with it for a while, the Devastation Battery Stratagem on Lascannon Havocs with Abaddon nearby is very useful.

 

That's pretty much the only thing the Specialist Detachment is good for.

[CrystalSeer]

 

Devastation battery is mostly interesting for the ability to:

 

B -  Break Phasing - for 2cp, you can fire your squad in your opponents movement phase t1. This one is situational, but the potential to nuke something in your opponents turn that they can not stop and doesn't rely on getting t1 is huge.

I never found this one very effective in of itself. 4 Lascannons don't have the power to bring something down with this generally.

Reaper Cannons are "ok" in this, but they're really an offensive weapon rather than defensive due to their range, 24" range is easy to dodge T1.

 

What it is useful for is for mindgames. Deploying the Chain Reaper Havocs out of LOS but with a clear line of fire if they move up can dissuade an opponent and while you can't really kill a Tank with 4 Lascannons easily you can really hurt them, especially if you've given them +1 to hit with a Dark Apostle (as this is at the start of the battle round) and have a Lord nearby.

 

 

I like this idea, I may have to try this. I mostly look for Las to be a counter to elite-infantry rather than one shotting tanks these days. If I'm taking out armor it requires combined efforts from multiple units.

[helterskelter]

Soulforged pack is great. Use with a warptime sorceror for maximum yeetage

[Prot]

I don't have a lot of great things to say about the Vigilus detachments, and I'm sure most aren't surprised. I playtested every one of them thoroughly at my club, and then decided on the Soul Forged Pack and Dev Battery and took that with my Black Legion to an ITC GT and didn't have as much success as I'd had in the past.

 

I'd disagree on point one though: Vigilus wasn't a Black Legion supplement. It was a Renegade fleshing out, that sold the new models. The Black Legion tid bits were to sell: Abaddon (amazing model) and Harkaan the terribad. (To this day it blows my mind they wasted such lethargic rules on a great new sculpt... and we know GW doesn't touch Dataslates so we're stuck with him.)

 

Vigilus gives you: A CP Farm for Chaos Knight lists. A valid way of running triple Disco Lords. A better reason (though not great) to pull out your old Daemonic Engine vehicles. And finally a phenomenal power unlock for Forgeworld Dreads of all flavours. Guess how many of these use original Legion rules? Zero. These are all power ups for Renegade type chapters. 

 

Everything I said above is based on competitive and semi-competitive play. I don't mean to be harsh but I assume when someone asks 'what's good?' they mean functional and potent. 

 

Purely for funzies: I found Raptor assault is fun. It does give you a reason to pull out Warp Talons. Add in Hateful Assault, and the way Ultra's and Tau Overwatch and you almost have a valid set of units on your hands. With Ghorivex's Teeth Lord leading the way, this is a fun, mildly punchy unit that gets its charges off with reasonable reliability.

 

Soulforged pack is another funzie one. The often lamented Defiler actually benefits a lot. But you MUST use a few Disco Lords. (They aren't as survivable as people lead you to believe.) All of your Daemon Engines find a reason to crawl out of the closet for this one. Horrible for competitive play in any meta that has Eldar Airshow in effect though. You end up with a lot of daemon engines with black looks on their faces staring up at the sky.

 

Dev Battery. Basically you're investing more in these types of units or it's not worth the cost of entry. However in tournament play I will say that  I did have a game vs. Shield Captains x3 on bikes, + 3 Imperial Knights, + Rusty 17 and I got off Dev Battery and took his Warlord Knight down to half before he shot it.  Still it's costly in CP, and actually promotes you putting your own Havocs in harm's way during deployment.

 

Possessed thing. Man this was so overblown on release. If you search the forums you will find a lot of people hailing this as the second coming of Chaos. It's fun. It requires a boat load of support. It falters easily, and is in danger of anything that ignores hit modifiers peeling it apart, or slowing it down.  It's like a bowling ball made of chaotic snot and toothpics. If your opponent has no idea what it does or how it operates, it's going to hurt. 

 

Overall it's mostly just fun stuff. There's nothing in here nearly on the scale of what Imp Fists, Astra, or even Admech got here. Mostly this promoted Renegade chapters in competitive play and got a metric TON of Forgeworld Deredeo's and Leviathans in tournament play. 

 

Personally I use none of these anymore. They just chew resources imho. I go back to the old stand bys for my CP: Cacaphony and VotLW.  And that's what I think every one of these Detachments should be: 1 CP Strategems. 

 

That's from my personal playing experience. I know a lot of people don't like my negative take on Viglius Ablaze, but I tell you one thing; if I had any real success from this hodgepodge of rules, I'd be the first to say so. (I have no problem with my Ultramarines for the time being.)

[Sonoftherubric21]

Let it be known in my defense I do not play in a hyper-competitive meta. When people play a "tournament" list they make it very explicit. 

I play in semi-competitive and casual metas. My perspective is a tad lighter then my brother Prots rofl. 

[Schlitzaf]

I don't have a lot of great things to say about the Vigilus detachments, and I'm sure most aren't surprised. I playtested every one of them thoroughly at my club, and then decided on the Soul Forged Pack and Dev Battery and took that with my Black Legion to an ITC GT and didn't have as much success as I'd had in the past.

 

I'd disagree on point one though: Vigilus wasn't a Black Legion supplement. It was a Renegade fleshing out, that sold the new models. The Black Legion tid bits were to sell: Abaddon (amazing model) and Harkaan the terribad. (To this day it blows my mind they wasted such lethargic rules on a great new sculpt... and we know GW doesn't touch Dataslates so we're stuck with him.)

 

Vigilus gives you: A CP Farm for Chaos Knight lists. A valid way of running triple Disco Lords. A better reason (though not great) to pull out your old Daemonic Engine vehicles. And finally a phenomenal power unlock for Forgeworld Dreads of all flavours. Guess how many of these use original Legion rules? Zero. These are all power ups for Renegade type chapters.

 

Everything I said above is based on competitive and semi-competitive play. I don't mean to be harsh but I assume when someone asks 'what's good?' they mean functional and potent.

 

Purely for funzies: I found Raptor assault is fun. It does give you a reason to pull out Warp Talons. Add in Hateful Assault, and the way Ultra's and Tau Overwatch and you almost have a valid set of units on your hands. With Ghorivex's Teeth Lord leading the way, this is a fun, mildly punchy unit that gets its charges off with reasonable reliability.

 

Soulforged pack is another funzie one. The often lamented Defiler actually benefits a lot. But you MUST use a few Disco Lords. (They aren't as survivable as people lead you to believe.) All of your Daemon Engines find a reason to crawl out of the closet for this one. Horrible for competitive play in any meta that has Eldar Airshow in effect though. You end up with a lot of daemon engines with black looks on their faces staring up at the sky.

 

Dev Battery. Basically you're investing more in these types of units or it's not worth the cost of entry. However in tournament play I will say that I did have a game vs. Shield Captains x3 on bikes, + 3 Imperial Knights, + Rusty 17 and I got off Dev Battery and took his Warlord Knight down to half before he shot it. Still it's costly in CP, and actually promotes you putting your own Havocs in harm's way during deployment.

 

Possessed thing. Man this was so overblown on release. If you search the forums you will find a lot of people hailing this as the second coming of Chaos. It's fun. It requires a boat load of support. It falters easily, and is in danger of anything that ignores hit modifiers peeling it apart, or slowing it down. It's like a bowling ball made of chaotic snot and toothpics. If your opponent has no idea what it does or how it operates, it's going to hurt.

 

Overall it's mostly just fun stuff. There's nothing in here nearly on the scale of what Imp Fists, Astra, or even Admech got here. Mostly this promoted Renegade chapters in competitive play and got a metric TON of Forgeworld Deredeo's and Leviathans in tournament play.

 

Personally I use none of these anymore. They just chew resources imho. I go back to the old stand bys for my CP: Cacaphony and VotLW. And that's what I think every one of these Detachments should be: 1 CP Strategems.

 

That's from my personal playing experience. I know a lot of people don't like my negative take on Viglius Ablaze, but I tell you one thing; if I had any real success from this hodgepodge of rules, I'd be the first to say so. (I have no problem with my Ultramarines for the time being.)

So the additional 6 relics, your new dtrategems, and the warlord traits for Black Legion specifically aren’t enough to consider it a Black Legion supplement? (also thanks Prot! This is exactly kind of answer I wanted to hear)

[techsoldaten]

I'd disagree on point one though: Vigilus wasn't a Black Legion supplement. It was a Renegade fleshing out, that sold the new models. The Black Legion tid bits were to sell: Abaddon (amazing model) and Harkaan the terribad. (To this day it blows my mind they wasted such lethargic rules on a great new sculpt... and we know GW doesn't touch Dataslates so we're stuck with him.)

 

 

So here's an alternate view.

 

Vigilus Ablaze provides minor benefits to Chaos generally, the real question is how it prepares Chaos Legions for the current meta. Especially NuMarines, there's a lot to think about when you really start to min / max your lists.

 

I play Black Legion, so I'm most familiar with how it works and happen to think this Legion benefits the most going forward. If you optimize around the book, you get kind of a Tip of the Spear situation. It doesn't help you win firefights, but you get all these melee advantages that can be decisive in objective missions. Consider the following:

 

- Black Legion got Chainlords, no one else did. Ghorivex's Teeth and Flames of Spite combined with Prescience and Daemonic Strength gives you a Character that outclasses a Carnifex for under 100 points. I've had situations where he's dished 8 MWs before we even got to his regular attacks.

 

- Merciless Fighters is great for fighting NuMarines because it's based on headcount. Chaos melee units can outnumber Primaris 5-man squads pretty easily. Combined with Hateful Assault, that's +2 attacks on the charge - very useful against PEQ. So a 10 man CSM squad with Chainswords has 4 attacks, charging a 5 man Intercessor squad there's a good chance of killing 3 of them before they fight. Then you have DtoFE and VotLW to consider, you can really do something nasty with that.

 

- Council of Traitors lets you make Sorcerers and MoPs into very good melee units through Warlord Traits. First Amongst Traitors and Indomitable are go-tos for these guys, that's your HQ defense against snipers and additional overkill with melee units. Combine that with Abaddon to create a whirling ball of death for a couple turns.

 

- World Killers Stratagem denies Victory Points. You can literally deep strike to stop an opponent from defending a point. This has won me games.

 

Thinking about Black Legion in terms of these dynamics, it's now a highly tactical force designed to win through close combat, board control and denial. NuMarines can outshoot them, but Black Legion can make it very hard to execute on mission objectives. This is unique amongst the Chaos Legions.

 

As Chaos players, we're not used to this. Traditionally, our armies are advancing up the board with big melee threats and mid-range shooting, Black Legion does things a little different. Maybe we bring deep striking Raptor squads who's sole job is to land near objectives and deny victory points. Maybe we use Sorcerers as dedicated Character killers in the midst of a large blob of troops. There's a lot to think about there.

 

The Renegade Legions seem like add-ons to me. I wouldn't want to build an army out of them, but I would want to squeeze them for their unique benefits. A 20-man Red Corsairs CSM unit with double chaincannons is a threat to any PEQ list especially with Abaddon's morale bubble in mind. They die, they don't die all the way, then they come back anywhere on the board.

 

A Flawless Host Discolord with Mechatendrils is terrifying in close combat. A Purge detachment can nullify benefits of some of Chapter Traits with a single wound. There's ways to optimize around these Chapters without committing to an entire army. It may not be mono-Legion, but that might not be the worst thing either. I'm currently repainting my old Black Legion CSM squads to make them Red Corsairs so I can start playtesting.

 

If there's a way to build a TAAC Chaos army in the current meta, it lies in Vigilus Ablaze. We're going to be figuring this out until something changes for Chaos.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Tech, Council of Traitors doesn't work on MOPS. As far as I am aware at least. 

[techsoldaten]

Tech, Council of Traitors doesn't work on MOPS. As far as I am aware at least. 

 

Yeah, it's actually Dark Apostle. Same principle.

[Slave to Darkness]

I don't have a lot of great things to say about the Vigilus detachments, and I'm sure most aren't surprised. I playtested every one of them thoroughly at my club, and then decided on the Soul Forged Pack and Dev Battery and took that with my Black Legion to an ITC GT and didn't have as much success as I'd had in the past.

 

I'd disagree on point one though: Vigilus wasn't a Black Legion supplement. It was a Renegade fleshing out, that sold the new models. The Black Legion tid bits were to sell: Abaddon (amazing model) and Harkaan the terribad. (To this day it blows my mind they wasted such lethargic rules on a great new sculpt... and we know GW doesn't touch Dataslates so we're stuck with him.)

 

Vigilus gives you: A CP Farm for Chaos Knight lists. A valid way of running triple Disco Lords. A better reason (though not great) to pull out your old Daemonic Engine vehicles. And finally a phenomenal power unlock for Forgeworld Dreads of all flavours. Guess how many of these use original Legion rules? Zero. These are all power ups for Renegade type chapters. 

 

Everything I said above is based on competitive and semi-competitive play. I don't mean to be harsh but I assume when someone asks 'what's good?' they mean functional and potent. 

 

Purely for funzies: I found Raptor assault is fun. It does give you a reason to pull out Warp Talons. Add in Hateful Assault, and the way Ultra's and Tau Overwatch and you almost have a valid set of units on your hands. With Ghorivex's Teeth Lord leading the way, this is a fun, mildly punchy unit that gets its charges off with reasonable reliability.

 

Soulforged pack is another funzie one. The often lamented Defiler actually benefits a lot. But you MUST use a few Disco Lords. (They aren't as survivable as people lead you to believe.) All of your Daemon Engines find a reason to crawl out of the closet for this one. Horrible for competitive play in any meta that has Eldar Airshow in effect though. You end up with a lot of daemon engines with black looks on their faces staring up at the sky.

 

Dev Battery. Basically you're investing more in these types of units or it's not worth the cost of entry. However in tournament play I will say that  I did have a game vs. Shield Captains x3 on bikes, + 3 Imperial Knights, + Rusty 17 and I got off Dev Battery and took his Warlord Knight down to half before he shot it.  Still it's costly in CP, and actually promotes you putting your own Havocs in harm's way during deployment.

 

Possessed thing. Man this was so overblown on release. If you search the forums you will find a lot of people hailing this as the second coming of Chaos. It's fun. It requires a boat load of support. It falters easily, and is in danger of anything that ignores hit modifiers peeling it apart, or slowing it down.  It's like a bowling ball made of chaotic snot and toothpics. If your opponent has no idea what it does or how it operates, it's going to hurt. 

 

Overall it's mostly just fun stuff. There's nothing in here nearly on the scale of what Imp Fists, Astra, or even Admech got here. Mostly this promoted Renegade chapters in competitive play and got a metric TON of Forgeworld Deredeo's and Leviathans in tournament play. 

 

Personally I use none of these anymore. They just chew resources imho. I go back to the old stand bys for my CP: Cacaphony and VotLW.  And that's what I think every one of these Detachments should be: 1 CP Strategems. 

 

That's from my personal playing experience. I know a lot of people don't like my negative take on Viglius Ablaze, but I tell you one thing; if I had any real success from this hodgepodge of rules, I'd be the first to say so. (I have no problem with my Ultramarines for the time being.)

Good job a lot of the stuff is for fun, I have pretty much given up on winning with chaos a long time ago, I pretty much play them for fun now anyway so I get something out of this book, its not much but Ill take anything I can at the moment tbh. :lol:

 

Its a shame you cant get a decent tourny list out of this though, I have been going down nostalga lane recently talking about old games back in the 3.5 dex days with my old Black Templar opponent of many years, those games were savage but every victory was worth it, we played for fun but we played hard as well, and I kinda miss the clash of competitive play.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Slave to Darkness